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justbyfaith

Well-known member
Sep 16, 2021
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#43
Praise God, what a wonderful question.

Let's look at Paul first,not as an apostle but as a Jew. He was taught in the best of schools by the best of scholars.
He had an amazing zeal for God and all that was Jewish.

Here in ch.12 Paul is talking about visions and revelations that he saw of the Lord during a 14 yr search.
He will not name himself as the man who was caught up into the third heavens.( What a place with the Lord that must have been!)

According to him this man was caught up( raptured) to paradise ( remember Jesus told the thief on the cross,this day shalt thou be with me in paradise)

Here the wonders and glories and the words he heard were against the law to be spoken

Paul warred constantly with his FLESH for things the flesh desired to do. It is extensive in Romans this battle.
To keep the flesh under control he knew he could not glory for GLORY BELONGS UNTO GOD ONLY.

We all have battles of the flesh but I'm thinking Paul's were much more intense BC of his background and pride in his former life's accomplishments.
So to me by his way of suffering for Christ he used his infirmities for control over pride and hautiness.

To keep the flesh under control for the Spirit to thrive to accomplish what the Lord called him to do,he was given a thorn in the flesh.

Look at a thorn prickly and buried deep in the flesh,it hurts and throbs,gets red and swollen to the point you think of amputation of that member....ouch

Paul said it was given to him,the messenger of Satan to buffet him or keep pushing against his flesh.( to keep it under subjection). The spirit is willing but the flesh is weak!

Now we don't know first off whether Paul prayed for something to help him with his flesh so he might not get exhalted. We do know Paul prayed and sought the Lord to remove it 3 times.

I have heard over the yrs so much speculation as to what this " thorn' was. Paul doesn't say but it kept him humble.

The Lord spoke,I believe this is the second recording of direct conversation with Jesus. On his way to persecute the Christians and here......Jesus words are so beautiful...v 9. My GRACE IS SUFFICIENT FOR THEE: for my strength is made perfect in weakness.

So Paul astute as ever yielded and gloried rather in his infirmities ( weaknesses,suffering,tribulations ect), that the POWER of CHRIST may rest upon him.

Paul has said I AM CRUCIFIED WITH CHRIST....Ga.2:20
That Christ might glory in him.
I know what my thorn in the flesh is...it is a stigma.

And still, even though it is given to keep me from pride, people accuse me of pride.

Well, I will seek the Holy Spirit on the issue.

Because if they are saying it out of a desire to make me a better person, then the motivation is love.

But if not, then they are seeking to deter others from believing in the preaching that I have been setting forth; and are therefore doing the work of satan.
 

Gardenias

Well-known member
Oct 27, 2020
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#44
Thankfully I do not think I have a thorn........Lol unless it is other peoples false interpretations.

I do have multiple infirmities and the suffering keeps me searching the word.
I'm thankful for these BC I believe they have made me stronger in what the Spirit teaches me.

Remember nothing comes against us and there is always a purpose and way of escape.

For if God be for us then WHO can be against us!
 

justbyfaith

Well-known member
Sep 16, 2021
4,707
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#45
I think that the purpose of a thorn in the flesh would be to keep a man from being prideful if he has received an abundance of revelation from the Lord.
 

2ndTimothyGroup

Well-known member
Feb 20, 2021
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#46
I believe that I clarified my point in post #38.

I have been lambasted as being full of pride while others here are being praised for their humility.

But there is such a thing as false humility; and sometimes those who are perceived as having pride do not in fact have pride.

1 Samuel 17:28-29.

There is a type of pride that is righteous and holy.

Psa 31:23, O love the LORD, all ye his saints: for the LORD preserveth the faithful, and plentifully rewardeth the proud doer.

When we take pride in our work, that is not necessarily a bad thing.
I, too, have been lambasted and attacked, and so relentlessly that I wound up with 30+ people on my ignore list. I am now removing them from the list as I come across them. But I have struggled so much in this life, that I have found that I just don't want to be a part of that aggression. The Lord has beaten me down. I mean, at age 54, the last three years of my life have been horrific, and that is AFTER being molested as a little boy. This is AFTER I was certain that my father was about to murder me as I went to the police to prevent him from murdering my former step-mother. (Yes, I saved her life, risking my own to do so.) This is after sustaining ridiculous beatings from my parents as a child. These last three years have been NOTHING compared to those days, and in fact, I'd much rather endure those struggles than endure what I have experienced of late.

I am the one that has decided to change. I am the one who has decided to stop battling everyone, thinking that it is good, Righteous, and Noble to defend myself (as I have the full right to do). Though my sense of balanced and healthy confidence is through the roof, and it is, I have decided to stop showing that incredible confidence, and lower myself to others. Why? I didn't want the negative attention anymore. I just got tired of it and decided that instead of presenting myself as balanced and confident, it just wasn't worth the fallout.

Now, I accept you as my total equal, for I am better than no one. In fact, I am worse than most people in terms of my past conduct. I welcome you to join us with a soft and gentle spirit. You are extremely important, not to mention very insightful. But this persona that you present is actually preventing others from ascending to it. The Truth that you are offering is being ignored far more than you might realize, and I KNOW that this is not what you are after. I KNOW that you want to share with others because you care and want us to know what you know. And, I thank you for that, for this is why I invited you to a previous thread, because I respected what you had to say, but you have opted not to participate. Again, you are important (at least to me AND to our Lord, God).

I hope that you find my words to be helpful and not discouragement. I am encouraging you to make a change so that you are not lambasted as you have been in the past. I know how it feels and it is painful.

Respect to you, good sir.
 
O

Omegatime

Guest
#47
God's answer to Paul was my grace s sufficient for you. Grace is needed for a covering of sins so either Paul was sinning in his flesh or his thoughts about something from Satan IMO. Sins in the past were covered by the sacrifice of animals but since the Lord died for all our sins once and for all, this is where grace comes in.
 

2ndTimothyGroup

Well-known member
Feb 20, 2021
5,883
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#48
God's answer to Paul was my grace s sufficient for you. Grace is needed for a covering of sins so either Paul was sinning in his flesh or his thoughts about something from Satan IMO
According to the writings of Paul, the below is the greatest Grace a person can receive:

Colossians 2:9-15 NLT - "For in Christ lives all the fullness of God in a human body. So you also are complete through your union with Christ, who is the head over every ruler and authority. When you came to Christ, you were "circumcised," but not by a physical procedure. Christ performed a spiritual circumcision--the cutting away of your sinful nature. For you were buried with Christ when you were baptized. And with him you were raised to new life because you trusted the mighty power of God, who raised Christ from the dead. You were dead because of your sins and because your sinful nature was not yet cut away. Then God made you alive with Christ, for he forgave all our sins. He canceled the record of the charges against us and took it away by nailing it to the cross. In this way, he disarmed the spiritual rulers and authorities. He shamed them publicly by his victory over them on the cross."

Without Colossians 2:9-15, there is no reason for creation to have been created.
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
13,878
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#49
This is a great question. Because of the wording, I'd have to say that it could be both. My heart, however, hopes that Paul is just using speech in a loose manner, here. Even Jesus prayed that we would not be bothered by Satan. I cannot imagine a prayer by Christ that would not be honored . . . considering that He was God in a human body.
often we don’t know what God knows that’s why we need to believe the gospel so when we pray we are in line with his will I’m actually pretty thankful for in answered prayers I didn’t get it when I was asking , but later I understood why they weren’t answered God knows the future and past so if we’re asking for something outside his will for us he’s not going to answer that prayer

Paul was an example for sinners that we can all be saved by grave and through the forebearance of God

“This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief. Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.”
‭‭1 Timothy‬ ‭1:15-16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

paul Understood why his request wasn’t answered it was to keep him humble even though God was exalting him in the kingdom read all the verses around that section

sometimes we ask for a struggle to be removed but it’s Gods Will that we endure through the struggle that makes us stronger in him
 

2ndTimothyGroup

Well-known member
Feb 20, 2021
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#50
Did King David know when He committed murder and adultery that it would not set well with God?
What do you think?
Urijah the Hittite is a difficult conversation (for me) to have, for the Hittites belong to a group of Seven Nations called upon by the Lord to be completely wiped out. They were "abominations." Now, it is true that the Lord left a remnant of these abominations for the future testing of battle and war. Was this a form of the Lord's Grace? Perhaps. Even the Canaanite woman and her child became available to receive this Grace . . . so who knows. (Not me.) :D

Thanks for the opportunity to respond. That's one of my favorite puzzles to unwrap and attempt to understand.
 

2ndTimothyGroup

Well-known member
Feb 20, 2021
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#51
often we don’t know what God knows that’s why we need to believe the gospel so when we pray we are in line with his will I’m actually pretty thankful for in answered prayers I didn’t get it when I was asking, but later I understood why they weren’t answered God knows the future and past so if we’re asking for something outside his will for us he’s not going to answer that prayer

Paul was an example for sinners that we can all be saved by grace and through the forbearance of God
Not to be weird, but this quote of yours gave me goosebumps, almost as if I had written it myself. I couldn't agree more, Pilgrim.
 
Nov 5, 2021
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#52
Urijah the Hittite is a difficult conversation (for me) to have, for the Hittites belong to a group of Seven Nations called upon by the Lord to be completely wiped out. They were "abominations." Now, it is true that the Lord left a remnant of these abominations for the future testing of battle and war. Was this a form of the Lord's Grace? Perhaps. Even the Canaanite woman and her child became available to receive this Grace . . . so who knows. (Not me.) :D

Thanks for the opportunity to respond. That's one of my favorite puzzles to unwrap and attempt to understand.
Are you disputing what the Lord said about it? David lost everything because of it.
 
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#54
or Adam would he have known ?
So you believe that God punishes people who do not know right from wrong?
Adam knew it was wrong to eat of the tree that God commanded him to not eat from it
before he ate from it.

And King David certainly knew his sin was wrong before he committed it.
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
13,878
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#55
Not to be weird, but this quote of yours gave me goosebumps, almost as if I had written it myself. I couldn't agree more, Pilgrim.
You recognize because it’s the gospel in your heart brother it’s the same for all
Of Us

“And Jesus answering said unto them, They that are whole need not a physician; but they that are sick.

I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭5:31-32‬ ‭KJV‬‬

he sat at a religiously righteous mans table

“There was a certain creditor which had two debtors: the one owed five hundred pence, and the other fifty. And when they had nothing to pay, he frankly forgave them both. Tell me therefore, which of them will love him most?

Simon answered and said, I suppose that he, to whom he forgave most. And he said unto him, Thou hast rightly judged.

And he turned to the woman, and said unto Simon, Seest thou this woman? I entered into thine house, thou gavest me no water for my feet: but she hath washed my feet with tears, and wiped them with the hairs of her head. Thou gavest me no kiss: but this woman since the time I came in hath not ceased to kiss my feet. My head with oil thou didst not anoint: but this woman hath anointed my feet with ointment.

Wherefore I say unto thee, Her sins, which are many, are forgiven; for she loved much: but to whom little is forgiven, the same loveth little.

And he said unto her, Thy sins are forgiven. And they that sat at meat with him began to say within themselves, Who is this that forgiveth sins also? And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭7:41-50‬ ‭KJV‬‬

sinners who convert to Christ end up being the ones like Paul who are dedicated to the one who has done so much for them to save them from the wrath to come.

Or like the woman so dedicated to Jesus being a known sinner shunned by the righteous not worthy to touch a righteous man they thought.

But those folks understand to their core what’s been done for them he becomes a hero and leader someone worthy of following his ways jesus sort of becomes everything to people like this The woman in John 8 caught in adultery and demanded by law she be stoned .

Jesus didn’t follow Moses law of putting her to death he gave a new law of judge your own self by the law and see if you are without sin .

then he forgave her first and then called her to repentance. Sinners get it I’m sometimes not sure of “righteous” people do
 

2ndTimothyGroup

Well-known member
Feb 20, 2021
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#56
Are you disputing what the Lord said about it? David lost everything because of it.
No. I said it was a difficult conversation (for me) to have . . . because Urijah was an abomination where in the past, to kill an abomination was a command and not a request.

You're more than welcome to explain how this command (made at least twice, if not three times) was negated by God. Go ahead . . . the stage is yours to explain.
 
Nov 5, 2021
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#57
No. I said it was a difficult conversation (for me) to have . . . because Urijah was an abomination where in the past, to kill an abomination was a command and not a request.

You're more than welcome to explain how this command (made at least twice, if not three times) was negated by God. Go ahead . . . the stage is yours to explain.
What is there to explain? It is all well documented.
 

2ndTimothyGroup

Well-known member
Feb 20, 2021
5,883
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#58
So you believe that God punishes people who do not know right from wrong?
Yes. There is this phrase "unintentional sin" that is mentioned several times in Scripture.

Numbers 15:27 NLT - 27 "If one individual commits an unintentional sin, the guilty person must bring a one-year-old female goat for a sin offering."

And unintentional sins were corrected through sacrifice . . . a concept that points to Christ.