How the Pre-Trib Rapture Became Popular in the Modern Church
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One harvest
But several gatherings.
You guys really need a starting place.
Start with first fruits.
You can either embrace it, or pretend it is something other than one of four parts.
There isn't another interpretation.
You guys really do NOT KNOW WHAT FIRST FRUITS IS??????
If you START from another place....you remain untaught.
Ironically rev 14 BEGINS with first fruits.
Ahem ...the first of 3 gatherings in that chapter.
But several gatherings.
You guys really need a starting place.
Start with first fruits.
You can either embrace it, or pretend it is something other than one of four parts.
There isn't another interpretation.
You guys really do NOT KNOW WHAT FIRST FRUITS IS??????
If you START from another place....you remain untaught.
Ironically rev 14 BEGINS with first fruits.
Ahem ...the first of 3 gatherings in that chapter.
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Acts 1
"""9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven."""
Just cut that part out of the bible.
You never will look at it anyway.
"""9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven."""
Just cut that part out of the bible.
You never will look at it anyway.
If you listen to those who twist scripture and add there own words to God's word's, then your confusion with grow until you are convinced in a lie.
Follow the Lord Jesus Christ and obey His Eternal Commandment: Proverbs 30:5-6 and Revelation 22:18-19
Every word of God is pure;
He is a shield to those who put their trust in Him.
6Do not add to His words,
Lest He rebuke you, and you be found a liar.
For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, [j]God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book; 19and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God[k] shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
Follow the Lord Jesus Christ and obey His Eternal Commandment: Proverbs 30:5-6 and Revelation 22:18-19
Every word of God is pure;
He is a shield to those who put their trust in Him.
6Do not add to His words,
Lest He rebuke you, and you be found a liar.
For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, [j]God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book; 19and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God[k] shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
Good Morning Brother - i have never omtted Acts ch 1 but always point to it as it AGREES with Matthew 24 & Luke 21
1 Thess 1:10 , 4:13-18 , Matt 24 , Acts 1 , 2 Thess 2 , Revelation ALL say there is only ONE First Resurrection and ONE Gathering of the Saints.
i want you to have room here to bring forth a 'pre-trib' gathering before the First Resurrection.
The consequence of speaking against or adding to Scripture is dishonesty.
There is no rapture or gathering mentioned or implied in Revelation 14 but there are two separate reapings.
1 Thess 1:10 , 4:13-18 , Matt 24 , Acts 1 , 2 Thess 2 , Revelation ALL say there is only ONE First Resurrection and ONE Gathering of the Saints.
i want you to have room here to bring forth a 'pre-trib' gathering before the First Resurrection.
The consequence of speaking against or adding to Scripture is dishonesty.
There is no rapture or gathering mentioned or implied in Revelation 14 but there are two separate reapings.
Well sorta
But the wheat, barley and grapes are three harvests .
I think the barley is first , then wheat and grapes is last.
Rev 14 is grapes (and last.)
Ruth is wheat or barley.
She was a " gleaner", which is one part of "harvest"
In the main harvest, which followed firstfruits, they were told by GOD to leave some for the gleaners.
Like wise the corners were not touched by the workers of the main harvest.
So harvest is 3 or 4 gatherings.
I don't really know if anyone here even knows this
I am mostly alone in unpacking these dynamics.
But the wheat, barley and grapes are three harvests .
I think the barley is first , then wheat and grapes is last.
Rev 14 is grapes (and last.)
Ruth is wheat or barley.
She was a " gleaner", which is one part of "harvest"
In the main harvest, which followed firstfruits, they were told by GOD to leave some for the gleaners.
Like wise the corners were not touched by the workers of the main harvest.
So harvest is 3 or 4 gatherings.
I don't really know if anyone here even knows this
I am mostly alone in unpacking these dynamics.
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I see many claims on your part about there being many gatherings but it's hard to follow where in scripture you are drawing this from.
You've brought up the appearance of Christ in the clouds in Rev 14 but I don't understand what bearing that would have on your interpretation?
I've seen you talk about first fruits... What does that have to do with a rapture concept?
I see many instances where a passage is brought up without the attempt to explain its context in a pretrib rapture interpretation.
What are these three gatherings you are referring to? What is the significance of these supposed gatherings?
Even a basic timeline would be helpful to understand when you think an event takes place and the relevant scripture you are using to support that interpretation.
You've brought up the appearance of Christ in the clouds in Rev 14 but I don't understand what bearing that would have on your interpretation?
I've seen you talk about first fruits... What does that have to do with a rapture concept?
I see many instances where a passage is brought up without the attempt to explain its context in a pretrib rapture interpretation.
What are these three gatherings you are referring to? What is the significance of these supposed gatherings?
Even a basic timeline would be helpful to understand when you think an event takes place and the relevant scripture you are using to support that interpretation.
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Here we go again.........
One Harvest for the righteous which began when the LORD said: John 4:34-38
Jesus said to them, “My food is to do the will of Him who sent Me, and to finish His work. 35Do you not say, ‘There are still four months and then comes the harvest’? Behold, I say to you, lift up your eyes and look at the fields, for they are already white for harvest! 36And he who reaps receives wages, and gathers fruit for eternal life, that both he who sows and he who reaps may rejoice together. 37For in this the saying is true: ‘One sows and another reaps.’ 38I sent you to reap that for which you have not labored; others have labored, and you have entered into their labors.”
Acts ch 1 fully agrees and confirms post-trib Second Coming for the Resurrection/rapture/gathering of His Elect
Matthew 24:29-31 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Acts 1 - Now when He had spoken these things, while they watched, He was taken up, and a cloud received Him out of their sight. 10And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel, 11who also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven,
will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven.”
But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
15For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.
16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
17Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
18Therefore comfort one another with these words.
One Harvest for the righteous which began when the LORD said: John 4:34-38
Jesus said to them, “My food is to do the will of Him who sent Me, and to finish His work. 35Do you not say, ‘There are still four months and then comes the harvest’? Behold, I say to you, lift up your eyes and look at the fields, for they are already white for harvest! 36And he who reaps receives wages, and gathers fruit for eternal life, that both he who sows and he who reaps may rejoice together. 37For in this the saying is true: ‘One sows and another reaps.’ 38I sent you to reap that for which you have not labored; others have labored, and you have entered into their labors.”
Acts ch 1 fully agrees and confirms post-trib Second Coming for the Resurrection/rapture/gathering of His Elect
Matthew 24:29-31 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Acts 1 - Now when He had spoken these things, while they watched, He was taken up, and a cloud received Him out of their sight. 10And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel, 11who also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven,
will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven.”
But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
15For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.
16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
17Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
18Therefore comfort one another with these words.
That fellow does not understand the 'grammar of the language'.
The word 'Then' in Matthew 24:9 is not a reference back to 'sorrows' in the previous verse - as if indicating "after the sorrows"; rather, it is a continuation of verse 6.
Verses 7-8 are an 'aside' - a temporary shift in focus that "jumps ahead" in time - to describe a future series of events - and then returning to the original focus.
We know this because of the word 'For' in verse 7 - especially after the ending statement of the previous verse.
Chronologically - at the end of verse 6, there is a jump forward in time - and [then] back to the point before the jump - at which point, verse 9 is a continuation of verse 6.
The same exact thing exists in Mark and Luke. While Mark's account handles it in a closely similar fashion, Luke's account is somewhat different in how it "frames" the 'aside'.
Nonetheless, all three accounts are saying the very same exact identical thing - each from the perspective of the writer.
What is "WOEFULLY neglected and misunderstood" is a proper understanding of the 'grammar of the language'...
The word 'Then' in Matthew 24:9 is not a reference back to 'sorrows' in the previous verse - as if indicating "after the sorrows"; rather, it is a continuation of verse 6.
Verses 7-8 are an 'aside' - a temporary shift in focus that "jumps ahead" in time - to describe a future series of events - and then returning to the original focus.
We know this because of the word 'For' in verse 7 - especially after the ending statement of the previous verse.
Chronologically - at the end of verse 6, there is a jump forward in time - and [then] back to the point before the jump - at which point, verse 9 is a continuation of verse 6.
The same exact thing exists in Mark and Luke. While Mark's account handles it in a closely similar fashion, Luke's account is somewhat different in how it "frames" the 'aside'.
Nonetheless, all three accounts are saying the very same exact identical thing - each from the perspective of the writer.
What is "WOEFULLY neglected and misunderstood" is a proper understanding of the 'grammar of the language'...
How can this apply to the Rapture when Christ comes WITH His saints and angels, and then sends out His angels to gather the believing remnant of Israel? Are you not aware that at the Second Coming of Christ the saints come with Christ? Which means that they were taken to Heaven at least seven years before the Second Coming.
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Good Morning my Brother Nehemiah6 - How are you today - Blessed - YES
FULLY Aware that the Second Coming of Christ is with the Saints - HALLELUJAH , HALLELUJAH , HALLELUJAH
Let's Fellowship in Him and His Word - AMEN
But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
15For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18Therefore comfort one another with these words.
The LORD is bringing the Souls of the Saints who are currently in Heaven, more are continually added thru death,
for their Resurrection from the Grave to be transformed into their NEW Glorified Bodies.
Just as it says here in 1 Thesslonians 4:13-18 and in 1 Corinthians 15
So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption. 43It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. 44It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45And so it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
46However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual. 47The first man was of the earth, made of dust; the second Man is [j]the Lord from heaven. 48As was the [k]man of dust, so also are those who are made of dust; and as is the heavenly Man, so also are those who are heavenly. 49And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we[l] shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man.
FULLY Aware that the Second Coming of Christ is with the Saints - HALLELUJAH , HALLELUJAH , HALLELUJAH
Let's Fellowship in Him and His Word - AMEN
But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
15For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18Therefore comfort one another with these words.
The LORD is bringing the Souls of the Saints who are currently in Heaven, more are continually added thru death,
for their Resurrection from the Grave to be transformed into their NEW Glorified Bodies.
Just as it says here in 1 Thesslonians 4:13-18 and in 1 Corinthians 15
So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption. 43It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. 44It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45And so it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
46However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual. 47The first man was of the earth, made of dust; the second Man is [j]the Lord from heaven. 48As was the [k]man of dust, so also are those who are made of dust; and as is the heavenly Man, so also are those who are heavenly. 49And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we[l] shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man.
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Oh, I understand perfectly what he is saying. Some of you (pre-trib folks on CC) have been saying the same thing for some time now.
Only, none of you [seem to] have a proper understanding of the 'grammar of the language' of the passage. If you did, what I wrote in post #2398 would have made perfect sense to you.
Perhaps it would do more good if you would spend some good honest (with yourself) time looking at the information on this web page:
http://mywebsite.us/BibleStudy/Olivet_Discourse.html
Look at it until it sinks in...
Only, none of you [seem to] have a proper understanding of the 'grammar of the language' of the passage. If you did, what I wrote in post #2398 would have made perfect sense to you.
Perhaps it would do more good if you would spend some good honest (with yourself) time looking at the information on this web page:
http://mywebsite.us/BibleStudy/Olivet_Discourse.html
Look at it until it sinks in...
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Perhaps it would do more good if you would spend some good honest (with yourself) time looking at the information on this web page:
http://mywebsite.us/BibleStudy/Olivet_Discourse.html
Look at it until it sinks in...
http://mywebsite.us/BibleStudy/Olivet_Discourse.html
Look at it until it sinks in...
When studying scripture there's a tendency for us to forget about context. But just based on context alone we know that The Messiah gave his prophecies before the events of the book of Acts, so those events must somehow be included in Messiah's prophecies somewhere.
Luke 21:12-15
But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.
13 And it shall turn to you for a testimony.
14 Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what ye shall answer:
15 For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist.
^ This passage literally began its fulfillment when Stephen was stoned, when Peter was put in prison, and when Paul was sent to Rome to give his testimony in front of officials. Next, verses 16 &17 prophesy betrayed by kin, which is literally what the Jews did to them during the book of Acts.
The Olivet Discourse is literally a summary prediction of everything that happens after Messiah leaves leading up to the destruction of Jerusalem, followed by the Great Tribulation of the Jews for rejecting Him (which is "the time of the Gentiles" a.k.a. the so-called church age...the time that's currently drawing to a close).
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