Man’s inability to submit to God and do good is total.
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Hi Superdave.
The dead man cannot respond in Faith. The first instance we see is that GOD called Abraham, then Abraham believed and it was counted righteousness. because of His Faith in that call. God acted first.
In the Colossians quote you gave, Paul tells us this... God made us alive.. we did not make our selves alive by our own ''Free will''.
First of God renews the heart, He alone changes it from stone to flesh (Jeremiah 36:26) He alone puts the Spirit in men. It is when you have been wawkened by the Spirit that you then can see, you are alive.. you then can respond in Faith.
Another point, when you say God wants all men to be saved, but yet becuase he has given man free will, you are saying that God cannot do his will.
Because If God wanted ALL men to be saved then he either can't because mans choice overides His, remember God wills that ALL men be saved.. or that man is sovereign and either his choice overules God or he is co - sovereign with God.
It is when pridefull rebelious men try and keep some of their own ' i am god' mentality' that we come across 'Free will'!
There is no man walking who has free will, you are bound by your nature therefore your choices are bound to that nature.
If you say the Holy Spirit assists man to make himself alive and that it is still mans Choice then God is inneffective, and not all powerful nor sovereign.
The dead man cannot respond in Faith. The first instance we see is that GOD called Abraham, then Abraham believed and it was counted righteousness. because of His Faith in that call. God acted first.
In the Colossians quote you gave, Paul tells us this... God made us alive.. we did not make our selves alive by our own ''Free will''.
First of God renews the heart, He alone changes it from stone to flesh (Jeremiah 36:26) He alone puts the Spirit in men. It is when you have been wawkened by the Spirit that you then can see, you are alive.. you then can respond in Faith.
Another point, when you say God wants all men to be saved, but yet becuase he has given man free will, you are saying that God cannot do his will.
Because If God wanted ALL men to be saved then he either can't because mans choice overides His, remember God wills that ALL men be saved.. or that man is sovereign and either his choice overules God or he is co - sovereign with God.
It is when pridefull rebelious men try and keep some of their own ' i am god' mentality' that we come across 'Free will'!
There is no man walking who has free will, you are bound by your nature therefore your choices are bound to that nature.
If you say the Holy Spirit assists man to make himself alive and that it is still mans Choice then God is inneffective, and not all powerful nor sovereign.
the thing is, shroom, to the Calvinist, God predestines people not only to heaven, but also to hell, which makes God the author of sin... even John Calvin himself said that God sends people to hell for "His own good pleasure", when Calvin himself was a murderer.
apparently, John Calvin's version of God made it okay for John Calvin to kill another man.
apparently, John Calvin's version of God made it okay for John Calvin to kill another man.
what Calvinists WON'T tell you is that Calvinism never started with John Calvin... it started with Augustine, a man who combined Roman paganism with Christianity, which, in turn, created the theology of Calvinism...
they ALSO WON'T tell you that EVERY SINGLE CHURCH LEADER PRIOR TO AUGUSTINE BELIEVED AND TAUGHT NON-CALVINISM BECAUSE CALVINISM DID NOT EXIST IN THEIR DAYS.
they ALSO WON'T tell you that EVERY SINGLE CHURCH LEADER PRIOR TO AUGUSTINE BELIEVED AND TAUGHT NON-CALVINISM BECAUSE CALVINISM DID NOT EXIST IN THEIR DAYS.
Hi Zilla,
This is a very untrue statement. Calvinism is just terminology. No one ever said that reformed theology came from Calvin, yes he expounded them, yet they were not his own they came down from a long line and yes Augustine who has always been held in high esteem for his apologetic expouinded them long before calvin. so to say ''''one thing calvinist will never tell '' is complete fallicy, and I would check out your sources first before going worldwide with comments like that.
Your second argument doesn not even make sense, Calvinism refers to a system of theology, not Calvin. as does what you believe it will be a system of theology. I think you are getting very confused ove the man calvin as over what he taught. This comes from scripture.
So what is it that those reformed are not telling you ? again this is another post that shows ignorance to the topic.
What you actually mean there is no traces of mens names! what did the early fathers believe? more importantly why do we have a progression through these early times of 'What Christians should believe'? once you answer these questions you wil see that the reformed view does not come from men but from God himself, it is seen from the earliest of times, and especially as God progressively reveals himself to His called out people. Strat with the Patriarchs, right through to the words of Jesus.
When you read the early church leaders/fathers, you will see that at everystage they were articulating the Christian belief, this was from the time even of Paul. Problems of flase teachings plagued the church even then. hence we ome to Augustine, He articualted the christian Faith very well, even though we don't agree with everything he says, some do some don't.
So the question is I put to you what do you think is missing from the time of Jesus until Augustine within reformed theology, compared to Arminian (semi pelagian) ('pelagian' will give you a clue). So zillas statement is not partly true either.
The question is, if you believe your statement to be true, What did the early church Fathers teach that was different from reformed?
When you read the early church leaders/fathers, you will see that at everystage they were articulating the Christian belief, this was from the time even of Paul. Problems of flase teachings plagued the church even then. hence we ome to Augustine, He articualted the christian Faith very well, even though we don't agree with everything he says, some do some don't.
So the question is I put to you what do you think is missing from the time of Jesus until Augustine within reformed theology, compared to Arminian (semi pelagian) ('pelagian' will give you a clue). So zillas statement is not partly true either.
The question is, if you believe your statement to be true, What did the early church Fathers teach that was different from reformed?
Holy Spirit does have a hand in this. He has inspired the gospel message, which has power to convict us of our sin and need for repentence. We choose to respond to this message through faith and repentence, or not! If we do respond, then the actual regeneration that takes place at baptism is the work of Holy Spirit. The indwelling Holy Spirit then begins the work of sanctification.
I think you sum up your view, (or should I say the Arminian view) nicely superdave. The Holy Spirit has a hand in this! Man is sovereign!
If salvation was mans choice, no one would be saved! we can only respond because God first opened our eyes, brought us from the dead to life, from darkness to light, once we see our situation we then can act in Faith. Being regenerated is not of man neither by his own will or that of another.. but of God alone..... Titus 3:5.
I am very aware that Jeremiah is refering tot he New Ecomony in Christ. However the point is that it is GOD who initiates this NEW HEARTin man... not man who is spiritually dead, this doesnt mean they have no responsibility!
The man who has not Christ is Spiritually dead, those who do not have the Son of God do not have life. To be seperated from life is death.
Like Adam we all hide in the garden, we in darkness, for we are ashamed of our evil deeds, thoughts and pridefull endeavours to be rulers ourselves, to be sovereign of our own lives. Did Adam call out to God? No. God called Him....!!
When man is born again (heart renewal, regeneration), this death is reversed. before we are born again of the Holy Spirit we are spiritually dead, But Christ GIVES life "“And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins,” Eph 2:1, did you notice something here. Paul does not say and the MAN who made himself alive.... He is saying GOD made you alive! not because of your choice for you were unable unless God renewed your heart!
When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins” (Colossians 2:13).
A great illustration is the dead Lazerus, here was who was physically dead to all, nothing could help him now, no medicine or Drs' could bring him back.
Christ calls and Lazerus responds, he was filed with life reversed from his death, Lazerus could not decide what to do... but the call of Christ is irresistable grace, no man can resist it if called by God.
In the same way as Lazerus, we were spiritually dead, unable to save ourselves, powerless to perceive the life of God—until Jesus called us to Himself. He “quickened” us; “not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy” (Titus 3:5).
4 But when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared, 5 he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, Titus 3:4-5 Cf John 3.
If salvation was mans choice, no one would be saved! we can only respond because God first opened our eyes, brought us from the dead to life, from darkness to light, once we see our situation we then can act in Faith. Being regenerated is not of man neither by his own will or that of another.. but of God alone..... Titus 3:5.
I am very aware that Jeremiah is refering tot he New Ecomony in Christ. However the point is that it is GOD who initiates this NEW HEARTin man... not man who is spiritually dead, this doesnt mean they have no responsibility!
The man who has not Christ is Spiritually dead, those who do not have the Son of God do not have life. To be seperated from life is death.
Like Adam we all hide in the garden, we in darkness, for we are ashamed of our evil deeds, thoughts and pridefull endeavours to be rulers ourselves, to be sovereign of our own lives. Did Adam call out to God? No. God called Him....!!
When man is born again (heart renewal, regeneration), this death is reversed. before we are born again of the Holy Spirit we are spiritually dead, But Christ GIVES life "“And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins,” Eph 2:1, did you notice something here. Paul does not say and the MAN who made himself alive.... He is saying GOD made you alive! not because of your choice for you were unable unless God renewed your heart!
When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins” (Colossians 2:13).
A great illustration is the dead Lazerus, here was who was physically dead to all, nothing could help him now, no medicine or Drs' could bring him back.
Christ calls and Lazerus responds, he was filed with life reversed from his death, Lazerus could not decide what to do... but the call of Christ is irresistable grace, no man can resist it if called by God.
In the same way as Lazerus, we were spiritually dead, unable to save ourselves, powerless to perceive the life of God—until Jesus called us to Himself. He “quickened” us; “not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy” (Titus 3:5).
4 But when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared, 5 he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, Titus 3:4-5 Cf John 3.
I love how you immediately label me, or should I say stereotype, because I disagree with what has to be the correct view, (yours!). Obviously, if you can label me up front as an Arminian, and you already know how erroroneous their views are, then you don't really have to pay any attention to anything else I have to say. As the Pharisees said about Christ at His hearing, you have heard the blasphemy, we don't need any more witnesses!
Arminians believe that God is dependent on human decision making to acheive His redemptive goals as you proudly point out above. I do not believe this at all. God is active in our lives. He reacts to our "choices". The entire Old Testament history is one of God's reaction to the "choices" that Israel made as a nation.
As I tried to point out in my example about the parent and the son wanting to play football, God allows us choices, within limits, while retaining His soverainty. As the parent allows the son to make the decision, he is still the parent. The son's allowed choice to choose sports does not mean he is allowed the free choice to shoot the neighbor's dog. The parent is still in control.
God has given us free will within the limitations of our physical world. He acts providentially, to insure that His will is done. Consider the following:
Esther 4: 12 When Esther's words were reported to Mordecai, 13 he sent back this answer: "Do not think that because you are in the king's house you alone of all the Jews will escape. 14 For if you remain silent at this time, relief and deliverance for the Jews will arise from another place, but you and your father's family will perish. And who knows but that you have come to royal position for such a time as this?"
Mordecai knew that if Esther decided against God's decision, that God would provide another way for His will to be done. It is YOU who limit God's soverainty, in that you declare that God is dependent on our lack of free will, in all things, to get His will done.
He may even act miraculously, such as a virgin birth, to make sure that His will is done. THE FACT THAT GOD IS ULTIMATELY RESPONSIBLE FOR OUR REDEMPTION DOES NOT LESSEN THE FACT THAT WE ARE GIVEN THE RIGHT TO CHOOSE TO ACCEPT THAT FREE GIFT!
God also reacts to prayer, as has been seen many times in the bible, and in our lives! Is that part of our lack of free will also, that we must pray for that which is certain to happen anyway?
You have failed to answer any of my criticisms of Calvinism and evidence of self determination in my previous posts, and have decided instead to label me. That is a most unprofitable means of communicating ideas.
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exactly phil.
which is WHY God ordained Lazareth's death and resurrection from death: to demonstrate that very truth: JESUS IS the resurrection and the LIFE....it comes from HIM.
Lazareth was SO dead....he "stinketh"
~
sounds a little like me:
ZONE! Come forth!
thank you Lord. amen.
which is WHY God ordained Lazareth's death and resurrection from death: to demonstrate that very truth: JESUS IS the resurrection and the LIFE....it comes from HIM.
Lazareth was SO dead....he "stinketh"
~
sounds a little like me
:ZONE! Come forth!
thank you Lord. amen.
Good to see you still in here, fighting the good fight!
hi SuperDave.
i tipped my hat to ya when i saw ya come in but you wuz busy.
love ya...how's church? and studies?
zone.
i tipped my hat to ya when i saw ya come in but you wuz busy.
love ya...how's church? and studies?
zone.
You'll have to email and let me know what's going on with you.
you figure it just happened and it was lucky the Lord was there?
this was one of His great miracles, like turning water into wine.
John 11
The Death of Lazarus
1 Now a certain man was ill, Lazarus of Bethany, the village of Mary and her sister Martha. 2 It was Mary who anointed the Lord with ointment and wiped his feet with her hair, whose brother Lazarus was ill. 3 So the sisters sent to him, saying, “Lord, he whom you love is ill.” 4 But when Jesus heard it he said, “This illness does not lead to death. It is for the glory of God, so that the Son of God may be glorified through it.”
11 After saying these things, he said to them, “Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep, but I go to awaken him.” 12 The disciples said to him, “Lord, if he has fallen asleep, he will recover.” 13 Now Jesus had spoken of his death, but they thought that he meant taking rest in sleep. 14 Then Jesus told them plainly, “Lazarus has died, 15 and for your sake I am glad that I was not there, so that you may believe. But let us go to him.”
25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live, 26and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?” 27 She said to him, “Yes, Lord; I believe that you are the Christ, the Son of God, who is coming into the world.”
Jesus Raises Lazarus
38 Then Jesus, deeply moved again, came to the tomb. It was a cave, and a stone lay against it. 39 Jesus said, “Take away the stone.” Martha, the sister of the dead man, said to him, “Lord, by this time there will be an odor, for he has been dead four days.” 40 Jesus said to her, “Did I not tell you that if you believed you would see the glory of God?” 41 So they took away the stone. And Jesus lifted up his eyes and said, “Father, I thank you that you have heard me. 42 I knew that you always hear me, but I said this on account of the people standing around, that they may believe that you sent me.”43 When he had said these things, he cried out with a loud voice, “Lazarus, come out.” 44 The man who had died came out, his hands and feet bound with linen strips, and his face wrapped with a cloth. Jesus said to them, “Unbind him, and let him go.”
this was one of His great miracles, like turning water into wine.
John 11
The Death of Lazarus
1 Now a certain man was ill, Lazarus of Bethany, the village of Mary and her sister Martha. 2 It was Mary who anointed the Lord with ointment and wiped his feet with her hair, whose brother Lazarus was ill. 3 So the sisters sent to him, saying, “Lord, he whom you love is ill.” 4 But when Jesus heard it he said, “This illness does not lead to death. It is for the glory of God, so that the Son of God may be glorified through it.”
11 After saying these things, he said to them, “Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep, but I go to awaken him.” 12 The disciples said to him, “Lord, if he has fallen asleep, he will recover.” 13 Now Jesus had spoken of his death, but they thought that he meant taking rest in sleep. 14 Then Jesus told them plainly, “Lazarus has died, 15 and for your sake I am glad that I was not there, so that you may believe. But let us go to him.”
25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live, 26and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?” 27 She said to him, “Yes, Lord; I believe that you are the Christ, the Son of God, who is coming into the world.”
Jesus Raises Lazarus
38 Then Jesus, deeply moved again, came to the tomb. It was a cave, and a stone lay against it. 39 Jesus said, “Take away the stone.” Martha, the sister of the dead man, said to him, “Lord, by this time there will be an odor, for he has been dead four days.” 40 Jesus said to her, “Did I not tell you that if you believed you would see the glory of God?” 41 So they took away the stone. And Jesus lifted up his eyes and said, “Father, I thank you that you have heard me. 42 I knew that you always hear me, but I said this on account of the people standing around, that they may believe that you sent me.”43 When he had said these things, he cried out with a loud voice, “Lazarus, come out.” 44 The man who had died came out, his hands and feet bound with linen strips, and his face wrapped with a cloth. Jesus said to them, “Unbind him, and let him go.”