How the Pre-Trib Rapture Became Popular in the Modern Church
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I'm not going to keep going with each of these posts of yours (I encourage the readers to really STUDY each passage DT is presenting, themselves), but I just wanted to point out one more that I think will be helpful to the readers:
1 Peter 1:7's word (in the bold above) is the word "G602" - "revelation"... https://biblehub.com/interlinear/1_peter/1-7.htm
... and whenever this word is used WITH the "definite article ['the']" (which it ISN'T used in this verse [v.7]), then it does refer to Christ's physical presence in the future at His coming ("in THE revelation of");
...but in the verses (re: Him) where the definite article is NOT used with it (v.7 is one such verse), it refers rather to "the here and now" (as in this verse, v.7, quoted at top ^ )... where it says, "in revelation of Jesus Christ" (no definite article).
So both here in verse 7 as well as in v.13 (which verse says, "fully set [your] hope upon the grace BEING BROUGHT [present participle] to you in revelation of Jesus Christ [no definite article accompanying]")... it [the word "G602" ('revelation')], in both of these verses, refers to "in the here and now"... in circumstances occurring NOW... (not the FUTURE "THE revelation of Jesus Christ," which is a distinct thing, like is what it refers to in places like in 1Cor1:7 where the definite article IS used with this word: https://biblehub.com/interlinear/1_corinthians/1-7.htm - "so as for you not to be lacking in any gift as you eagerly await the revelation [G602] of our Lord Jesus Christ,")
Study it out, friends! = )
1 Peter 1:7's word (in the bold above) is the word "G602" - "revelation"... https://biblehub.com/interlinear/1_peter/1-7.htm
... and whenever this word is used WITH the "definite article ['the']" (which it ISN'T used in this verse [v.7]), then it does refer to Christ's physical presence in the future at His coming ("in THE revelation of");
...but in the verses (re: Him) where the definite article is NOT used with it (v.7 is one such verse), it refers rather to "the here and now" (as in this verse, v.7, quoted at top ^ )... where it says, "in revelation of Jesus Christ" (no definite article).
So both here in verse 7 as well as in v.13 (which verse says, "fully set [your] hope upon the grace BEING BROUGHT [present participle] to you in revelation of Jesus Christ [no definite article accompanying]")... it [the word "G602" ('revelation')], in both of these verses, refers to "in the here and now"... in circumstances occurring NOW... (not the FUTURE "THE revelation of Jesus Christ," which is a distinct thing, like is what it refers to in places like in 1Cor1:7 where the definite article IS used with this word: https://biblehub.com/interlinear/1_corinthians/1-7.htm - "so as for you not to be lacking in any gift as you eagerly await the revelation [G602] of our Lord Jesus Christ,")
Study it out, friends! = )
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I see that as what *you* are doing, by your indiscriminately grabbing any and all verses with words [similarly-sounding] which you think support your case, but which, upon close examination, fail to do so.
[DT... the guy who has repeatedly disparaged the concept of "context"
(but which is indeed a very important thing, when it comes to exegeting a text properly)]
[DT... the guy who has repeatedly disparaged the concept of "context"
(but which is indeed a very important thing, when it comes to exegeting a text properly)]-
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Right.Those words are not in the text of 2Th2:3 (i.e. are not inherent in that Greek word itself [G646]), just like "FROM MOSES" also had to be ADDED in order to inform of just "WHAT KIND" of departure was meant in Acts 21:21 (b/c that "idea" is not inherent in the word itself... the CONTEXT [surrounding that word] tells us those things). And that's what the reader must examine also in the case of 2Th2:3.
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I see that as what *you* are doing, by your indiscriminately grabbing any and all verses with words [similarly-sounding] which you think support your case, but which, upon close examination fail to do so.
[DT... the guy who has repeatedly disparaged the concept of "context" ]
[DT... the guy who has repeatedly disparaged the concept of "context"
]
Let every Reader fear God and be Protected under His Covering:
Every word of God is flawless;
He is a shield to those who take refuge in Him.
Do not add to His words,
lest He rebuke you and prove you a liar.
Proverbs 30:5-6
God is not the author of confusion - religion is.
There was only ONE First Coming of the LORD Jesus Christ and there is only ONE Second Coming of our LORD Jesus Christ.
CHRIST appeared to us for Salvation in His First Coming and HE will appear to us who love Him in His Second Coming.
For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age,
looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works.
i, DavidTree agree with God my Savior and the Apostle Paul to "Speak these things, exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no one despise you."
Titus 2:11-15
Right.Those words are not in the text of 2Th2:3 (i.e. are not inherent in that Greek word itself [G646]), just like "FROM MOSES" also had to be ADDED in order to inform of just "WHAT KIND" of departure was meant in Acts 21:21 (b/c that "idea" is not inherent in the word itself... the CONTEXT [surrounding that word] tells us those things). And that's what the reader must examine also in the case of 2Th2:3.
God knowing all things before they come to pass verified to the Reader how to avoid the error/lie of pre-trib rapture.
Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
The HOLY SPIRIT confirmed to the Reader not to buy the lie of pre-trib rapture by bearing witness to 2 Thess ch2
Children, it is the last hour; and just as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have appeared.
This is how we know it is the last hour.
They went out/departed from us, but they did not belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us.
But their departure made it clear that none of them belonged to us.
1 John 2:18-19
Just as the LORD said in Matthew 24:10 so did the Apostle Paul and so did the Apostle John and the HOLY SPIRIT sealed it.
I'm not aware of ANY text in Scripture having the words "FIRST COMING" and "SECOND COMING" (these are terms that man has applied to Scripture when aiding in understanding what a person is talking about)... but these terms are not found IN SCRIPTURE.
So, for example, a post I made in the past about the word "COME" (re: Jesus) :
[quoting old post]
--Micah 5:2 speaks of the COMING FORTH at Bethlehem,
--and Zechariah 9:9 speaks of the COMING UNTO Jerusalem.
...which one of these two passages speak of it?
Or do both of them speak of His "First Advent" happenings?
--one being His "BIRTH" ['[out of you (Bethlehem) unto Me] SHALL COME FORTH'];
--the other being what took place on the very day that the "69 Weeks" CONCLUDED [on Palm Sunday and what is commonly called 'the Triumphal Entry'],
when He SAID the Lk19:41-44 thing [parallel the wording in both Lk21:20,23 and Matt22:7 (re: the 70ad events)],
and when He DID the Zech9:9 thing ['thy King COMETH UNTO *thee* [speaking of Jerusalem / the city]'])
--Micah 5:2 -
"But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee SHALL HE COME FORTH unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting."
--Zechariah 9:9 - [see also Lk19:41-44 and context]
"Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King COMETH UNTO thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass."
Is only ONE of these ^ passage speaking of [what WE call] His "FIRST ADVENT," or are both / each of them about that (what we call His 'First Advent'), even though speaking of events some THIRTY YEARS APART! [and describing VERY DISTINCT OCCURRENCES!!!]
[end quoting old post]
So, for example, a post I made in the past about the word "COME" (re: Jesus) :
[quoting old post]
--Micah 5:2 speaks of the COMING FORTH at Bethlehem,
--and Zechariah 9:9 speaks of the COMING UNTO Jerusalem.
...which one of these two passages speak of it?
Or do both of them speak of His "First Advent" happenings?
--one being His "BIRTH" ['[out of you (Bethlehem) unto Me] SHALL COME FORTH'];
--the other being what took place on the very day that the "69 Weeks" CONCLUDED [on Palm Sunday and what is commonly called 'the Triumphal Entry'],
when He SAID the Lk19:41-44 thing [parallel the wording in both Lk21:20,23 and Matt22:7 (re: the 70ad events)],
and when He DID the Zech9:9 thing ['thy King COMETH UNTO *thee* [speaking of Jerusalem / the city]'])
--Micah 5:2 -
"But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee SHALL HE COME FORTH unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting."
--Zechariah 9:9 - [see also Lk19:41-44 and context]
"Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King COMETH UNTO thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass."
Is only ONE of these ^ passage speaking of [what WE call] His "FIRST ADVENT," or are both / each of them about that (what we call His 'First Advent'), even though speaking of events some THIRTY YEARS APART! [and describing VERY DISTINCT OCCURRENCES!!!]
[end quoting old post]
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The words "FIRST COMING" and "SECOND COMING" are not found in the text of Scripture.
Those are phrases man has applied to Scripture to aid in discussion ABOUT Scripture.
... and you have not presented any text of Scripture showing THESE TWO PHRASES, as they are not found IN SCRIPTURE.
Those are phrases man has applied to Scripture to aid in discussion ABOUT Scripture.
... and you have not presented any text of Scripture showing THESE TWO PHRASES, as they are not found IN SCRIPTURE.
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CORRECT = You are not aware
Religion and error will do that to a person.
God established in Genesis and the Prophets that there is a First Coming of the Messiah and then His Return = His Second Coming.
Just as God said there is a First Resurrection for the Just, necessitates that the resurrection of the unjust, which occurs AFTER the 1,000 Year Reign of Christ and His Saints is the Second without having to specify it as such.
God established this, simple math, in His Word for our complete confidence in Him and His Children's Book.
Written for Children who know 1+1 = 2, basic reading skills invited into His Kingdom.
We have a Comforter who knows ALL Things and Teaches us ALL Things as it Pleases HIM.
And as for you, the anointing you received from Him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But just as His true and genuine anointing teaches you about all things, so remain in Him as you have been taught.
Religion and error will do that to a person.
God established in Genesis and the Prophets that there is a First Coming of the Messiah and then His Return = His Second Coming.
Just as God said there is a First Resurrection for the Just, necessitates that the resurrection of the unjust, which occurs AFTER the 1,000 Year Reign of Christ and His Saints is the Second without having to specify it as such.
God established this, simple math, in His Word for our complete confidence in Him and His Children's Book.
Written for Children who know 1+1 = 2, basic reading skills invited into His Kingdom.
We have a Comforter who knows ALL Things and Teaches us ALL Things as it Pleases HIM.
And as for you, the anointing you received from Him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But just as His true and genuine anointing teaches you about all things, so remain in Him as you have been taught.
I believe that, too, but my interpretation of "those who remain" is sound. Again, when then referring to those who "remain", it's talking about members of a group who have survived something. In this case, the context is tthat those who are alive and remain survived the great tribulation.
I have 1 Thess. 4:17 and Matt. 24:22 to supplement this. Given that the rapture is post-trib, it's the best interpretation.
I have 1 Thess. 4:17 and Matt. 24:22 to supplement this. Given that the rapture is post-trib, it's the best interpretation.
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That's false. If the day of the Lord begins after an alleged pre-trib rapture then you just put tribulation saints through God's wrath. Saints in the great tribulation are members of the church. The "church age" doesn't end until after the post-trib rapture, just before the day of the Lord. The Bible says the church is not appointed to wrath. It's that simple.
You're going to keep fumbling over doctrine because your foundation is off. You're trying to conform the Bible to a nonexistent doctrine. As a result, you keep producing irregularities. This should be a red flag for you.
You're going to keep fumbling over doctrine because your foundation is off. You're trying to conform the Bible to a nonexistent doctrine. As a result, you keep producing irregularities. This should be a red flag for you.
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These TWO Comings of the LORD Jesus are the Bedrock Foundation of TRUTH observed from Genesis to Revelation.
Here they are in ONE clear instruction from the Holy Spirit = Hebrews 9:23-28
It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us: Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others; For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world:
but now once in the end of the world hath He appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many;
and unto them that look for Him shall He appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
Are you able to see this?
Here they are in ONE clear instruction from the Holy Spirit = Hebrews 9:23-28
It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us: Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others; For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world:
but now once in the end of the world hath He appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many;
and unto them that look for Him shall He appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
Are you able to see this?
No translation is perfect, including the KJV. Here are so other choices.
Amp: number should be complete.
BRG: should be fulfilled
CJB: until the full number
CEV: until the complete number
MSG: full number
MOUNCE: until the number was reached
NIV: Full number
NLT: full number had joined them
TPT: full number was reached
It seems the majority of English translations have number complete.
Amp: number should be complete.
BRG: should be fulfilled
CJB: until the full number
CEV: until the complete number
MSG: full number
MOUNCE: until the number was reached
NIV: Full number
NLT: full number had joined them
TPT: full number was reached
It seems the majority of English translations have number complete.
I agree, SOME will depart from the faith. This means SOME. Can you equate SOME with THE APOSTASIA, meaning a very significant one - one that all would recognize as what Paul was meaning? The truth is, when one falls away from the faith, TWO or more come into the faith. The church is growing and will continue to grow until the rapture.
What did John mean, "OF US?" Perhaps those that departed were never born again so not a real part.
You are still wrong: Paul said when someone sees TWO EVENTS, one of which must come first, they would know when they were in the Day of the Lord and that it has previously started. Of course the first event of the two is the apostasia departing. I think apostasia IS the gathering, not just connected to it.
What did John mean, "OF US?" Perhaps those that departed were never born again so not a real part.
You are still wrong: Paul said when someone sees TWO EVENTS, one of which must come first, they would know when they were in the Day of the Lord and that it has previously started. Of course the first event of the two is the apostasia departing. I think apostasia IS the gathering, not just connected to it.
He said the days would be shortened - presumedly, so that scripture would be fulfilled (which states there will be [some] Christians alive after most of them will be killed) - and - He no-doubt wants [some] alive at the resurrection/rapture.
The Bible also says that the Church will not go [totally] out of existance [on the earth].
Which means there must be some alive when He returns.
~
I believe the GT began circa 70 A.D. - and, will end at some point in the future.
I believe it will be the Two Witnesses "arriving on the scene" that will mark the end of the GT. (rather than the return of Christ)
I believe the return of Christ will occur directly after the Two Witnesses are raised up.
You have to look at the pertinent passages of scripture according to God's Timing.
The GT is a long period of time and not a short one.
We are in it now.
The Dark Ages, the World Wars, etc. (in 'event' terms) are all included in the GT.
The worst is yet to come.
The Bible also says that the Church will not go [totally] out of existance [on the earth].
Which means there must be some alive when He returns.
~
I believe the GT began circa 70 A.D. - and, will end at some point in the future.
I believe it will be the Two Witnesses "arriving on the scene" that will mark the end of the GT. (rather than the return of Christ)
I believe the return of Christ will occur directly after the Two Witnesses are raised up.
You have to look at the pertinent passages of scripture according to God's Timing.
The GT is a long period of time and not a short one.
We are in it now.
The Dark Ages, the World Wars, etc. (in 'event' terms) are all included in the GT.
The worst is yet to come.
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