Are we in the end times ?

[Angela53510]

Asking...

Sorry this took a while. I was at the hospital yesterday for a procedure and didn't feel too perky when I got home!

Here is the proper exegesis of the words in 1 Thess. 4:17!

"The only place the word "rapture" is found in the Bible, is in Jerome's Catholic Latin Vulgate. Jerome had very poor Greek, and transliterated the word "ἁρπαγησόμεθα" wrong! Remember I said "transliterated, not translated! Jerome had poor Greek, and he took the word, ἁρπάζω and made the Greek sound like Latin. Thus harpazo becomes rapture. Except for the “arp” is turned around to say “rap” and the “azo” is not found at all in the word rapture. Also, "ure" is missing from ἁρπάζω. Plus, rapture is a noun, “the rapture” whereas ἁρπάζω is a verb, and is used as a verb. While some people may think the difference between a noun and a verb is slight, in fact, they are a completely different form of speech. Some of you will remember:

noun: person, place or thing
verb: action word, or a state of being (I am) transitive and intransitive.
Very different parts of speech. Harpazo does not appear in the NT as a noun. So, on that grounds alone, there is no “the rapture” in the NT. (I didn’t check the LXX)

Here is the key verse:

"After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever." 1 Thess. 4:17 NIV

"ἔπειτα ἡμεῖς οἱ ζῶντες οἱ περιλειπόμενοι ἅμα σὺν αὐτοῖς ἁρπαγησόμεθα ἐν νεφέλαις εἰς ἀπάντησιν τοῦ κυρίου εἰς ἀέρα· καὶ οὕτως πάντοτε σὺν κυρίῳ ἐσόμεθα.' 1 Thess. 4:17 SBL Greek NT

Here are some a few key words of this verse.

οἱ περιλειπόμενοι means "left behind." No argument with this. However, why are Christians 'left behind?" If we are supposed to be leaving, then why are born again Christians the ones "who are left behind?"

ἁρπαγησόμεθα is future indicative passive, from ἁρπάζω. Something that is done to us, in the future. It means to snatch or seize. It also denotes the emotion of a sudden swoop and with a force that cannot be resisted. This verb also implies it will be done quickly. Rapture also appears as a definition in many Greek tools, but always remember, that is not necessarily the right translation, but comes from Jerome’s Latin, not the original Greek. A quick search of various versions show that no one actually translates harpazo as “rapture,” anyway. Including the KJV!

ἀέρα from ἀήρ acc, sg. Bauer (BDAG) says mist or haze, or 1, The atmosphere immediately above the earth's surface. 2. the space above the earth, sky air. It is not οὑρανός which means heaven, heavens, or firmament. So, no one is going to be taken to heaven, but instead, will be in the air, just above the earth.

ἀπάντησιν is a key word in this passage. It means meeting, so it is a noun. Not “to meet” (a verb) the Lord, but rather the Lord will be in a “meeting” (noun) with us. But more important, this word has a special emphasis. It has the technical meaning in the Hellenistic world related to the visits or dignitaries to cities, where the visitors would be formally met by the citizens, or a deputation of them, who went out from the city and would then ceremonially escort him back to the city. This is also used this way in Acts. 28:15, to talk about the people in Rome going out to find Paul, meeting him, and then returning to the city. Paul is always very accurate in his word usage. If he uses a word that means "accompany back" he doesn't mean leave and go to heaven, as the rapture heresy teaches.

In context, when the Second Coming happens (no rapture) we will meet Jesus in the air above us, and then return to earth. A renewed earth. There is simply no mention of heaven, nor being taken away from the earth. We will come back with Jesus. Paul uses this word twice in the NT in this way, which is the correct meaning - be swooped up in the air, and then return to earth with Jesus.

No rapture, at all, anywhere. Not found in the NT anywhere. Just mixed up ideas from Darby and Scofield, and those who listen to them, instead of Greek, the language the NT was written in.

 

[justbyfaith]

οἱ περιλειπόμενοι means "left behind." No argument with this. However, why are Christians 'left behind?" If we are supposed to be leaving, then why are born again Christians the ones "who are left behind?"

It is speaking here of those who have not yet gone on to be with the Lord through physical death. Those who are still alive on the earth when the rapture comes.

ἁρπαγησόμεθα is future indicative passive, from ἁρπάζω. Something that is done to us, in the future. It means to snatch or seize. It also denotes the emotion of a sudden swoop and with a force that cannot be resisted. This verb also implies it will be done quickly. Rapture also appears as a definition in many Greek tools, but always remember, that is not necessarily the right translation, but comes from Jerome’s Latin, not the original Greek. A quick search of various versions show that no one actually translates harpazo as “rapture,” anyway. Including the KJV!

Right....the Latin word for "caught up" is the Latin "rapturo".

So, what do you think it means for the church to be caught up to meet the Lord in the air?

ἀέρα from ἀήρ acc, sg. Bauer (BDAG) says mist or haze, or 1, The atmosphere immediately above the earth's surface. 2. the space above the earth, sky air. It is not οὑρανός which means heaven, heavens, or firmament. So, no one is going to be taken to heaven, but instead, will be in the air, just above the earth.

The firmament is the first heaven.

And it does not say in 1 Thessalonians that those who are caught up will immediately come back to earth. It is believed with a certain biblical basis that there will be seven years in which the church will partake of the "marriage supper of the Lamb" (Revelation 19:9) while the people on the earth are going through "Great Tribulation".

Are you one who believes that the church will go through the Great Tribulation?

I would ask you whether you think of God as a wife-beater then.

as the rapture heresy teaches.

I do not believe that the doctrine of the rapture is heresy. It is actually taught by some of the largest mainline Protestant denominations (including the one that I now attend, Calvary Chapel).

 

[Hann57]

I realize that you maybe a young convert in Christ and I hope so because your comment herein, is so wrong. How can you possibly believe that only Paul's writings are for us? Scripture clearly says, as written by the Apostle Paul to Timothy:

2Ti 3:15 and that from a babe thou hast known the sacred writings which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

Paul, here, is not talking about his writings. He is talking about the Old Testament writings. His writings, for the most part, have not been written yet.

2Ti 3:16 Every scripture inspired of God is also profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for instruction which is in righteousness:
2Ti 3:17 that the man of God may be complete, furnished completely unto every good work.

Every book and every verse in Holy Scripture, is God breathed. Therefore all of God's revelation is to be given equal weight in our considerations. All of the Bible either stands together are falls together. We as believers cannot "cherry pick" what we want to believe in or except. To believe otherwise, is either to not know one is displeasing God or one does not know God or His Christ.

What have you believed to be saved ?

 

[Evmur]

I don't think the church, the true church that is will endure the great tribulation, I believe we are taken out of here.

Rev. 3:10

"Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth."

Jesus is addressing the true church here through John, they will not go through the tribulation.

You are thinking that Christ knocking on the door and "he who opens the door ..." represents the rapture ... bro I don't think so, The Lord calls upon that backslidden church to buy of Him gold tried and tested in the fire and to anoint their eyes .... doesn't quite suit either the one who opened the door [and so in your view] are raptured or those who are [in your view] left behind.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Sorry this took a while. I was at the hospital yesterday for a procedure and didn't feel too perky when I got home!

Here is the proper exegesis of the words in 1 Thess. 4:17!

"The only place the word "rapture" is found in the Bible, is in Jerome's Catholic Latin Vulgate. Jerome had very poor Greek, and transliterated the word "ἁρπαγησόμεθα" wrong! Remember I said "transliterated, not translated! Jerome had poor Greek, and he took the word, ἁρπάζω and made the Greek sound like Latin. Thus harpazo becomes rapture. Except for the “arp” is turned around to say “rap” and the “azo” is not found at all in the word rapture. Also, "ure" is missing from ἁρπάζω. Plus, rapture is a noun, “the rapture” whereas ἁρπάζω is a verb, and is used as a verb. While some people may think the difference between a noun and a verb is slight, in fact, they are a completely different form of speech. Some of you will remember:

noun: person, place or thing
verb: action word, or a state of being (I am) transitive and intransitive.
Very different parts of speech. Harpazo does not appear in the NT as a noun. So, on that grounds alone, there is no “the rapture” in the NT. (I didn’t check the LXX)

Here is the key verse:

"After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever." 1 Thess. 4:17 NIV

"ἔπειτα ἡμεῖς οἱ ζῶντες οἱ περιλειπόμενοι ἅμα σὺν αὐτοῖς ἁρπαγησόμεθα ἐν νεφέλαις εἰς ἀπάντησιν τοῦ κυρίου εἰς ἀέρα· καὶ οὕτως πάντοτε σὺν κυρίῳ ἐσόμεθα.' 1 Thess. 4:17 SBL Greek NT

Here are some a few key words of this verse.

οἱ περιλειπόμενοι means "left behind." No argument with this. However, why are Christians 'left behind?" If we are supposed to be leaving, then why are born again Christians the ones "who are left behind?"

ἁρπαγησόμεθα is future indicative passive, from ἁρπάζω. Something that is done to us, in the future. It means to snatch or seize. It also denotes the emotion of a sudden swoop and with a force that cannot be resisted. This verb also implies it will be done quickly. Rapture also appears as a definition in many Greek tools, but always remember, that is not necessarily the right translation, but comes from Jerome’s Latin, not the original Greek. A quick search of various versions show that no one actually translates harpazo as “rapture,” anyway. Including the KJV!

ἀέρα from ἀήρ acc, sg. Bauer (BDAG) says mist or haze, or 1, The atmosphere immediately above the earth's surface. 2. the space above the earth, sky air. It is not οὑρανός which means heaven, heavens, or firmament. So, no one is going to be taken to heaven, but instead, will be in the air, just above the earth.

ἀπάντησιν is a key word in this passage. It means meeting, so it is a noun. Not “to meet” (a verb) the Lord, but rather the Lord will be in a “meeting” (noun) with us. But more important, this word has a special emphasis. It has the technical meaning in the Hellenistic world related to the visits or dignitaries to cities, where the visitors would be formally met by the citizens, or a deputation of them, who went out from the city and would then ceremonially escort him back to the city. This is also used this way in Acts. 28:15, to talk about the people in Rome going out to find Paul, meeting him, and then returning to the city. Paul is always very accurate in his word usage. If he uses a word that means "accompany back" he doesn't mean leave and go to heaven, as the rapture heresy teaches.

In context, when the Second Coming happens (no rapture) we will meet Jesus in the air above us, and then return to earth. A renewed earth. There is simply no mention of heaven, nor being taken away from the earth. We will come back with Jesus. Paul uses this word twice in the NT in this way, which is the correct meaning - be swooped up in the air, and then return to earth with Jesus.

No rapture, at all, anywhere. Not found in the NT anywhere. Just mixed up ideas from Darby and Scofield, and those who listen to them, instead of Greek, the language the NT was written in.

a few notes as I read.

1. The passage says, and thus we shall always be with the Lord. while I agree it is a meeting, and it the lord coming to us. I do not see where it states we will immediately return with him. It just states we will be with him forever.

2. As for the word rapture. or more specifically, to be "caught up" I also agree, this was a latin translation or whatever from the greek. But it still in my view means the same. We are caught up "snatched" or "Siezed" into the clouds. where this meeting takes place.

as for returning. I am always limited by the fact we do not just meet, and come back. SOme things have to happen to us. Namely the bema seat judgment. The reciving of our glorified bodies. and everything else.

I am also limited to the fact we see resurrected being in the throne room with Christ as he opens the seals. How can this be if they have not yet been resurrected yet?

I am not for or against pre-trib or post trib. I believe it is a mystery and we will not know until it happens. All I can do is look to the word as a whole. and not just one small passage, and see what I see concerning end times and when and where the ressurection fits in.

Hope your feeling OK sis. I know your going through alot..

 

[Charlie24]

You are thinking that Christ knocking on the door and "he who opens the door ..." represents the rapture ... bro I don't think so, The Lord calls upon that backslidden church to buy of Him gold tried and tested in the fire and to anoint their eyes .... doesn't quite suit either the one who opened the door [and so in your view] are raptured or those who are [in your view] left behind.

John said that he heard a trumpet as though it was speaking to him, calling him up.

What did Paul say would happen at the resurrection/rapture?

1 Thess. 4:16

"For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:"

Looks like it matches to me. Of course if your mind is made up there is no rapture of the saints before the Great Tribulation, then there is nothing anyone can say or show you to change your mind. We will just have to wait and see!

With the resurrection/rapture in mind, Paul says in 1Thess. 5:9,

"For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,"

Paul is talking to the church here, the born-again! Is it possible that Paul is saying the born-again are not going through the wrath of God at the Great Tribulation? I definitely say, YES

 

[taralynnmcdonnell]

The apostle Paul writes of perilous times.

2Ti_3:1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.

Paul describes what men will be like in these times from verse 2 to verse 7.


Are there any so called "signs of the times"

I am afraid not.

1Th_5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

We are in the dispensation of the grace of God right now.

Eph_3:2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:

Col_1:25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;

God has dispensed his grace given to Paul our apostle by Jesus Christ.
Have you noticed in that verse above Paul has fulfilled the word of God.
Which means God has said all that he is going to say, through Paul our apostle.

2Ti 2:7 Consider what I say; and the Lord give thee understanding in all things.

Paul writes consider what I say, but when you think about that statement ,he got everything from the risen Christ, even visions and revelations in an abundance.

2Co_12:1 It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord.

2Co_12:7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

Paul had an office given to him by God, he had received the gospel also by Christ to give to us.

Rom_11:13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:

Paul was on the wrong road in life, he said he did it in ignorance and unbelief, until the Lord called him by grace, he had come to trust in what Christ had done for us by believing the gospel of Christ.

Paul new whom he had come to believe in with many more after Paul who would gladly lay down their lives for the Lord Jesus Christ.

Have you come to see the light of the gospel given to Paul ?

1Co 15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
1Co 15:2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
1Co 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
1Co 15:4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

I truly believe we are in the End Times . . . Especially since the prophecy of Israel becoming a State happened around 1946. . . Additionally the Euphrates River is almost dried up . . . Another big sign . . . We got this . . .Keep your light shining!

 

[Evmur]

John said that he heard a trumpet as though it was speaking to him, calling him up.

What did Paul say would happen at the resurrection/rapture?

1 Thess. 4:16

"For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:"

Looks like it matches to me. Of course if your mind is made up there is no rapture of the saints before the Great Tribulation, then there is nothing anyone can say or show you to change your mind. We will just have to wait and see!

With the resurrection/rapture in mind, Paul says in 1Thess. 5:9,

"For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,"

Paul is talking to the church here, the born-again! Is it possible that Paul is saying the born-again are not going through the wrath of God at the Great Tribulation? I definitely say, YES

You are thinking the Great Trib is God's wrath. We totally agree as Paul has said we are not destined for wrath.

Paul teaches "through great tribulation must we inherit the kingdom of God" You agree that that there will come a time of unprecedented persecution right? This is the Great Trib.

 

[Charlie24]

You are thinking the Great Trib is God's wrath. We totally agree as Paul has said we are not destined for wrath.

Paul teaches "through great tribulation must we inherit the kingdom of God" You agree that that there will come a time of unprecedented persecution right? This is the Great Trib.

No sir! Paul starts out 1Thess. 5 speaking of the Day of the Lord coming, not the everyday struggle we face in the faith.

He is speaking of the resurrection, there can be no mistake of this, Avmur! He is telling us the resurrection is coming and those in the Lord will not be present for the wrath to come on that Day!

 

[Evmur]

No sir! Paul starts out 1Thess. 5 speaking of the Day of the Lord coming, not the everyday struggle we face in the faith.

He is speaking of the resurrection, there can be no mistake of this, Avmur! He is telling us the resurrection is coming and those in the Lord will not be present for the wrath to come on that Day!

We have agreed about that, now what about the persecution which Jesus warned us about when we shall be hated of all men?

 

[Charlie24]

We have agreed about that, now what about the persecution which Jesus warned us about when we shall be hated of all men?

That has nothing to do with the subject of the resurrection. Those are to separate tribulations, and are two separate conversations.

 

[Evmur]

That has nothing to do with the subject of the resurrection. Those are to separate tribulations, and are two separate conversations.

Jesus said they were signs of His coming, Paul said the end times would be perilous.

The man of sin will be on a rampage against everything called god and will proclaim that he is God [meaning he expects us to worship him] all these things happen before the Lord comes in the clouds and destroys him.

 

[Charlie24]

Jesus said they were signs of His coming, Paul said the end times would be perilous.

The man of sin will be on a rampage against everything called god and will proclaim that he is God [meaning he expects us to worship him] all these things happen before the Lord comes in the clouds and destroys him.

The problem, and it will not be well received by many here, is that Covenant theology has taken root in the Church.

For it to be true there can be no pre-trib rapture! I'm here to tell you they are wrong, there will be a pre-trib. rapture.

Some of us have had to reform ourselves from the reformers! I rest in that camp!

 

[Evmur]

The problem, and it will not be well received by many here, is that Covenant theology has taken root in the Church.

For it to be true there can be no pre-trib rapture! I'm here to tell you they are wrong, there will be a pre-trib. rapture.

Some of us have had to reform ourselves from the reformers! I rest in that camp!

... but you agree that the end times will be perilous

 

[Charlie24]

... but you agree that the end times will be perilous

The grey area in scripture, the unknown, is what will happen between now and the resurrection!

We know the day of the Lord is coming, but what will happen on earth before He delivers the saints from the that Day.

These are the perilous days, the unknown, the spiritual warfare for the believer against evil in high places to hold on to our faith.

The last days began with Christ coming to the earth the first, the last days have been going on now for 2000 years.

The peril for us until He comes is to keep the faith that Satan desires to take from us, as he took from Adam which started this whole mess for man.

 

[Laura798]

It is speaking here of those who have not yet gone on to be with the Lord through physical death. Those who are still alive on the earth when the rapture comes.



Right....the Latin word for "caught up" is the Latin "rapturo".

So, what do you think it means for the church to be caught up to meet the Lord in the air?



The firmament is the first heaven.

And it does not say in 1 Thessalonians that those who are caught up will immediately come back to earth. It is believed with a certain biblical basis that there will be seven years in which the church will partake of the "marriage supper of the Lamb" (Revelation 19:9) while the people on the earth are going through "Great Tribulation".

Are you one who believes that the church will go through the Great Tribulation?

I would ask you whether you think of God as a wife-beater then.



I do not believe that the doctrine of the rapture is heresy. It is actually taught by some of the largest mainline Protestant denominations (including the one that I now attend, Calvary Chapel).

JBF, you said: "I do not believe that the doctrine of the rapture is heresy. It is actually taught by some of the largest mainline Protestant denominations (including the one that I now attend, Calvary Chapel)."

"When you find yourself in the majority, it's time to pause and reflect."--"Mark Twain

It's not always good to be in the majority--millions died in the flood. only eight were saved. thousands died in the destruction of sodom and gomorrah--only three were saved.

 

[Laura798]

The grey area in scripture, the unknown, is what will happen between now and the resurrection!

We know the day of the Lord is coming, but what will happen on earth before He delivers the saints from the that Day.

These are the perilous days, the unknown, the spiritual warfare for the believer against evil in high places to hold on to our faith.

The last days began with Christ coming to the earth the first, the last days have been going on now for 2000 years.

The peril for us until He comes is to keep the faith that Satan desires to take from us, as he took from Adam which started this whole mess for man.

Good morning, Charlie-it's your arch nemisis and friend here.

You said, "The grey area in scripture, the unknown, is what will happen between now and the resurrection!"

My personal belief is there is no grey area with God. And furthermore, I believe it is time for your morning coffee--my brain personally seems to work better with a little cup of the morning Joe.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

JBF, you said: "I do not believe that the doctrine of the rapture is heresy. It is actually taught by some of the largest mainline Protestant denominations (including the one that I now attend, Calvary Chapel)."

"When you find yourself in the majority, it's time to pause and reflect."--"Mark Twain

It's not always good to be in the majority--millions died in the flood. only eight were saved. thousands died in the destruction of sodom and gomorrah--only three were saved.

using this line of thinking. one must remember, less people believe in pre-trib than other beliefs concerning end times..

so should we go with the few. or the most? (the most held belief would be a preterist/amil belief)

 

[Laura798]

You are thinking the Great Trib is God's wrath. We totally agree as Paul has said we are not destined for wrath.

Paul teaches "through great tribulation must we inherit the kingdom of God" You agree that that there will come a time of unprecedented persecution right? This is the Great Trib.

Hi Evmur,

I wanted to add that the wrath of God is not the Tribulation, but is God's final Judgment--the tribulation is a wake up call--"behold, I am coming soon." Those who believe they will be whisked away to safety are in for a sad awakening and more likely to be fooled by a false Messiah. God warned us to prepare us, j ust as he did the Christians regarding the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. Many were able to escape because they knew prophecy.

 

[Charlie24]

Good morning, Charlie-it's your arch nemisis and friend here.

You said, "The grey area in scripture, the unknown, is what will happen between now and the resurrection!"

My personal belief is there is no grey area with God. And furthermore, I believe it is time for your morning coffee--my brain personally seems to work better with a little cup of the morning Joe.

LOL, Laura, I have to say I love you in the Lord, and I welcome you to present our differences. I know where your heart is now, I know that we can discuss those things in the spirit of the Lord. No matter what differences we have, it really doesn't matter, we are both saved by grace through faith, and though we may differ, you are and always will be my Sister in Christ!

Already had my 5 cups of coffee, so I'm ready Sister, let the games begin, lol!

I don't know what is going to happen between now and the Lord coming, I'm pretty sure no one does.

If the authors of scripture knew they sure didn't tell us in scripture. Of course, they were not told either, that's why it's the grey area, we are all guessing when we say this or that will happen between now and the Lord's coming.

But I do know this, the scripture tells us time after time to believe and do the things that increase our faith, if not, the door is open for the Great Deceiver to do to us what he did to Adam.