Are we in the end times ?
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From God's perspective I think I can agree with you.
However, from man's perspective, as we are looking at things in time, I think that you must realize that the Antichrist will not be revealed as the Antichrist until after the Holy Spirit in the church has been taken out of the world.
And before that happens, he will be someone who is destined to be the Antichrist; but he will not yet be the Antichrist. He will be someone with the antichrist spirit...an antichrist.
The point being that the Antichrist may be alive today or he may be alive 500 years from now.
Whoever he is, he cannot rule and reign "until the power of the holy people has been scattered" (Daniel 12:7)...
So, from the perspective of man looking at things in real time, he is potentially anyone who carries the antichrist spirit from now until the time that Christ takes the church out of the world...and the Holy Spirit with it.
However, from man's perspective, as we are looking at things in time, I think that you must realize that the Antichrist will not be revealed as the Antichrist until after the Holy Spirit in the church has been taken out of the world.
And before that happens, he will be someone who is destined to be the Antichrist; but he will not yet be the Antichrist. He will be someone with the antichrist spirit...an antichrist.
The point being that the Antichrist may be alive today or he may be alive 500 years from now.
Whoever he is, he cannot rule and reign "until the power of the holy people has been scattered" (Daniel 12:7)...
So, from the perspective of man looking at things in real time, he is potentially anyone who carries the antichrist spirit from now until the time that Christ takes the church out of the world...and the Holy Spirit with it.
I hold to Paul's writing for the reason of what he wrote as the commandments of the Lord.
1Co_14:37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.
2Ti_2:7 Consider what I say; and the Lord give thee understanding in all things.
Who gave Paul visions and revelations in abundance ? The Lord. Who made Paul and apostle to the Gentiles? The Lord.
Rom 15:16 That I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Ghost.
Rom 15:8 Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:
Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision, Israel.
You can read all their stuff Matthew Mark Luke and John all of the books outside of Paul and it will do you no good because your not Israel or Kingdom gospel saints. You need to be saved by the gospel given to Paul who is an apostle for the Gentiles.
1Co_14:37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.
2Ti_2:7 Consider what I say; and the Lord give thee understanding in all things.
Who gave Paul visions and revelations in abundance ? The Lord. Who made Paul and apostle to the Gentiles? The Lord.
Rom 15:16 That I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Ghost.
Rom 15:8 Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:
Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision, Israel.
You can read all their stuff Matthew Mark Luke and John all of the books outside of Paul and it will do you no good because your not Israel or Kingdom gospel saints. You need to be saved by the gospel given to Paul who is an apostle for the Gentiles.
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Hann, I'm going to have to tell you straight here: I read the words of the Lord Jesus Christ in the Gospels fairly regularly, and they do me a TON of good. As Paul himself said, all scripture is profitable for rebuke, correction, edification and instruction, and to claim that anything outside his writings are not profitable for us today is essentially saying that only Paul's epistles are scripture.
This position is so ridiculous that it borders on trolling.
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I realize that you maybe a young convert in Christ and I hope so because your comment herein, is so wrong. How can you possibly believe that only Paul's writings are for us? Scripture clearly says, as written by the Apostle Paul to Timothy:
2Ti 3:15 and that from a babe thou hast known the sacred writings which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
Paul, here, is not talking about his writings. He is talking about the Old Testament writings. His writings, for the most part, have not been written yet.
2Ti 3:16 Every scripture inspired of God is also profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for instruction which is in righteousness:
2Ti 3:17 that the man of God may be complete, furnished completely unto every good work.
Every book and every verse in Holy Scripture, is God breathed. Therefore all of God's revelation is to be given equal weight in our considerations. All of the Bible either stands together are falls together. We as believers cannot "cherry pick" what we want to believe in or except. To believe otherwise, is either to not know one is displeasing God or one does not know God or His Christ.
2Ti 3:15 and that from a babe thou hast known the sacred writings which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
Paul, here, is not talking about his writings. He is talking about the Old Testament writings. His writings, for the most part, have not been written yet.
2Ti 3:16 Every scripture inspired of God is also profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for instruction which is in righteousness:
2Ti 3:17 that the man of God may be complete, furnished completely unto every good work.
Every book and every verse in Holy Scripture, is God breathed. Therefore all of God's revelation is to be given equal weight in our considerations. All of the Bible either stands together are falls together. We as believers cannot "cherry pick" what we want to believe in or except. To believe otherwise, is either to not know one is displeasing God or one does not know God or His Christ.
While there are "dispensations" in the Bible. For example, the dispensation from Adam to Moses (without Law), and Moses to Christ (with Law), and so on, one should not see "dispensations" as taught by Darby.
I agree that the seven letters to the seven churches are the same church age but they are not to be understood as sequential but as concurrent. All seven of the churches existed at the same time and each received a letter addressed to each one. Therefore, each of the conditions described in the letters, were occurring at the same point in time.
The seven letters, represent the different condition of churches throughout the church age. At any given time, one can find a church that will resemble the problems or praise of one of these seven. There have been Laodicean churches throughout history, just as there have been Philadelphian churches throughout history and so on.
I will agree, that as we move further and further towards the second coming of Christ, all of Scripture teaches that churches will become more likened to the Laodicean church. For we are today, in a famine for the True Word of God. This was prophesied by the prophet Amos:
Amos_8:11-12 Behold, the days come, says the Lord Jehovah, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of Jehovah. And they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the north even to the east; they shall run TO and FRO to seek the word of Jehovah, and shall not find it.
While this prophecy will find it's full fruition in the future, those days are already starting.
I agree that the seven letters to the seven churches are the same church age but they are not to be understood as sequential but as concurrent. All seven of the churches existed at the same time and each received a letter addressed to each one. Therefore, each of the conditions described in the letters, were occurring at the same point in time.
The seven letters, represent the different condition of churches throughout the church age. At any given time, one can find a church that will resemble the problems or praise of one of these seven. There have been Laodicean churches throughout history, just as there have been Philadelphian churches throughout history and so on.
I will agree, that as we move further and further towards the second coming of Christ, all of Scripture teaches that churches will become more likened to the Laodicean church. For we are today, in a famine for the True Word of God. This was prophesied by the prophet Amos:
Amos_8:11-12 Behold, the days come, says the Lord Jehovah, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of Jehovah. And they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the north even to the east; they shall run TO and FRO to seek the word of Jehovah, and shall not find it.
While this prophecy will find it's full fruition in the future, those days are already starting.
I see it different.
Rev. 1:19
" Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter; "
Jesus points out to John the Past, the Present, the Future!
Then Jesus immediately begins the letters to the church, with the past leading to the church, present condition of church, and the future of the church.
I see these letters to the churches representing the entire church age (2000 years) in consecutive order showing us the gradual fall of the church leading into the Great Tribulation.
It's plain to see as the letters progress in order the condition of the church digresses.
Rev. 1:19
" Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter; "
Jesus points out to John the Past, the Present, the Future!
Then Jesus immediately begins the letters to the church, with the past leading to the church, present condition of church, and the future of the church.
I see these letters to the churches representing the entire church age (2000 years) in consecutive order showing us the gradual fall of the church leading into the Great Tribulation.
It's plain to see as the letters progress in order the condition of the church digresses.
While the Apostle Paul was indeed the Apostle to the Gentiles in the church age and was used to author many epistles in the New Testament, he was writing, as inspired, by the Lord Jesus Christ. It is He who is recorded as speaking in the Gospels. How then, as a supposed believer, can you diminish the Words spoken directly from Him?
Yes, you must distinguish which things are to the Jews and which are for the church but all are edifying. Each writer, of the synoptic Gospels, is writing about the character and work of our Lord. How can one believe upon Jesus Christ, if they do not have a complete picture of the Person and Work of Christ?
Matthew writes about Christ as the King. Mark writes about Christ as the perfect Servant. Luke writes about Christ as the perfect Man and John writes about Christ as the God-Man. Each therefore, develops Jesus Christ's Person and Work from a different perspective. Too many, today, want the work of Jesus Christ, while not properly respecting the Impeccable Person.
Yes, you must distinguish which things are to the Jews and which are for the church but all are edifying. Each writer, of the synoptic Gospels, is writing about the character and work of our Lord. How can one believe upon Jesus Christ, if they do not have a complete picture of the Person and Work of Christ?
Matthew writes about Christ as the King. Mark writes about Christ as the perfect Servant. Luke writes about Christ as the perfect Man and John writes about Christ as the God-Man. Each therefore, develops Jesus Christ's Person and Work from a different perspective. Too many, today, want the work of Jesus Christ, while not properly respecting the Impeccable Person.
Your argument, does not answer the logic or the reality of my previous statement, which cannot be denied by any resonable thought process. Which was:
"I agree that the seven letters to the seven churches are the same church age but they are not to be understood as sequential but as concurrent. All seven of the churches existed at the same time and each received a letter addressed to each one. Therefore, each of the conditions described in the letters, were occurring at the same point in time."
Where not all seven churches in existence at the same time? Was not John instructed to give these letters to each perspective church? Were not the warnings, of our Lord, to these churches real?
As to the words: "" Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter; "" simply means to write "all" down - what is past, present and future and is not restricted to the seven churches. Additionally, you seemed to overlook what came before:
Rev 1:4-6 John to the seven churches that are in Asia: Grace to you and peace, from him who is and who was and who is to come; and from the seven Spirits that are before his throne; and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loveth us, and loosed us from our sins by his blood; and he made us to be a kingdom, to be priests unto his God and Father; to him be the glory and the dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
This proves that the seven churches existed at the same time and were located in Asia. Further proof is in these verses:
Rev 1:10-11 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and I heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet saying, What thou seeing, write in a book and send it to the seven churches: unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamum, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.
Additionally, you said that the church order progresses in a conditional digress - this is not true.
In truth, the Sixth church - the church in Philadelphia - is the only church, of the seven, to have NO condemnation. They received only Praise from the Lord and were rewarded with a "door" of opportunity. The First church - the church in Ephesus - had left it's first love. The love of Christ, that one has when they first believe. The Second through the Fifth church are in far worst condition than the Sixth. The Third - the church in Thyatira - was nearly in as bad of shape as Laodicea.
"I agree that the seven letters to the seven churches are the same church age but they are not to be understood as sequential but as concurrent. All seven of the churches existed at the same time and each received a letter addressed to each one. Therefore, each of the conditions described in the letters, were occurring at the same point in time."
Where not all seven churches in existence at the same time? Was not John instructed to give these letters to each perspective church? Were not the warnings, of our Lord, to these churches real?
As to the words: "" Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter; "" simply means to write "all" down - what is past, present and future and is not restricted to the seven churches. Additionally, you seemed to overlook what came before:
Rev 1:4-6 John to the seven churches that are in Asia: Grace to you and peace, from him who is and who was and who is to come; and from the seven Spirits that are before his throne; and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loveth us, and loosed us from our sins by his blood; and he made us to be a kingdom, to be priests unto his God and Father; to him be the glory and the dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
This proves that the seven churches existed at the same time and were located in Asia. Further proof is in these verses:
Rev 1:10-11 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and I heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet saying, What thou seeing, write in a book and send it to the seven churches: unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamum, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.
Additionally, you said that the church order progresses in a conditional digress - this is not true.
In truth, the Sixth church - the church in Philadelphia - is the only church, of the seven, to have NO condemnation. They received only Praise from the Lord and were rewarded with a "door" of opportunity. The First church - the church in Ephesus - had left it's first love. The love of Christ, that one has when they first believe. The Second through the Fifth church are in far worst condition than the Sixth. The Third - the church in Thyatira - was nearly in as bad of shape as Laodicea.
And again you present the same argument and I showed you why I disagree on consecutive order!
The church of Philadelphia is called in dispensation "the missionary church" this church has a time frame of beginning at about 1800.
This church represents the greatest missions effort in history! It centered in England and reached the entire world in revival.
As it began to diminish, the torch was passed to America which for some time now has led the world in exporting the Gospel of Jesus Christ. This has now diminished to the last church in time, Laodicea, which is the apostate church. The church has never been in this terrible condition since the reformation and is rotten to the core!
In a relatively short period of time the church from the time of Philadelphia to Laodicea is the most drastic decline in church history.
The church of Philadelphia is called in dispensation "the missionary church" this church has a time frame of beginning at about 1800.
This church represents the greatest missions effort in history! It centered in England and reached the entire world in revival.
As it began to diminish, the torch was passed to America which for some time now has led the world in exporting the Gospel of Jesus Christ. This has now diminished to the last church in time, Laodicea, which is the apostate church. The church has never been in this terrible condition since the reformation and is rotten to the core!
In a relatively short period of time the church from the time of Philadelphia to Laodicea is the most drastic decline in church history.
You are still dodging my direct questions. You seem to be following someone's dogma rather than the Scripture reality. No matter - you will have to answer for your beliefs, as do I.
If you believe that a church like Laodicea has not ever existed, then I don't know what to say. Apparently, you deny the existence of a church that was in Laodicea. You also, apparently deny apostate churches like the Mormons, Jehovah Witnesses and the Catholics. Many of these have existed for centuries.
If you believe that a church like Laodicea has not ever existed, then I don't know what to say. Apparently, you deny the existence of a church that was in Laodicea. You also, apparently deny apostate churches like the Mormons, Jehovah Witnesses and the Catholics. Many of these have existed for centuries.
I didn't say a church such like Laodicea has never existed, I'm sure throughout the 2000 years of church history there have been some. This is putting words in my mouth!
My point is that the 7 churches as described by Christ represent the majority vision of what the church was in that period of time.
Of course this doesn't represent every single church, God has had His remnant throughout all these periods of time!
My point is that the 7 churches as described by Christ represent the majority vision of what the church was in that period of time.
Of course this doesn't represent every single church, God has had His remnant throughout all these periods of time!
Glad to see that you acknowledge that aspect. Many believe, as you, as to the progressive nature of the seven churches. I believe Schofield took that route of thinking. However, I cannot because of the number seven. The number seven, in Scripture, is God's number of "completion". Hence it must be gathered, that the seven churches, represent a completed representation of all churches for all time. This also explains why only these seven were written too. They are the complete representation of every type of church.
I certainly do agree with you, however, as stated previously, I think most churches today are Laodicean. Thus, marking the last of the last days. Having said this however, I do believe that the other Six examples can be found, even if in lesser number.
Take care, this discussion has been a good one. Something for each to consider but both of our points are a minor thing, in the overall importance, of other Doctrines.
I certainly do agree with you, however, as stated previously, I think most churches today are Laodicean. Thus, marking the last of the last days. Having said this however, I do believe that the other Six examples can be found, even if in lesser number.
Take care, this discussion has been a good one. Something for each to consider but both of our points are a minor thing, in the overall importance, of other Doctrines.
We all are certainly not going to agree! I feel very comfortable with my interpretation and how it fits in the scripture.
Actually I need to start a new thread on this and explain why I'm a dispensationalist. Of course that will open up arguments from every angle, but at least I can present my case!
Actually I need to start a new thread on this and explain why I'm a dispensationalist. Of course that will open up arguments from every angle, but at least I can present my case!
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