Backsliding

seed_time_harvest · Nov 24, 2021

Roughsoul1991 said:

When I say Spirits,I meant Spirits as In the Spirit of just (MEN).Men as In plural not a MAn with spirits.😂

seed_time_harvest · Nov 24, 2021

True Children of Christ will sin less because Jesus will have removed the Curse of the Lord from their figurative hearts. Thus, the "old man" is gone and the "new man" has arrived. With the Sin Nature cut out and removed, the "motor" that causes sin is removed. When that motor has stopped running, we are left to contend with ourselves . . . hence, the process of Sanctification.

This would be a good time for True Children to tell us how much their minds have been Transformed by Christ.

Is there anyone, here, who has been Transformed and can testify of this remarkable experience?

Curse of the LORD?

seed_time_harvest · Nov 24, 2021

Roughsoul1991 said:

The HOLY SPIRIT guides us but can we still sin with the HOLY SPIRIT Inside of us And If we Do sin with the HOLY SPIRIT Inside of us are we still saved or are we lost If we continue to sin or as someone compared the prodigal son If we don't come back?🙂

seed_time_harvest · Nov 24, 2021

Vindicator said:

The soul will be saved but without any rewards at the judgement seat of CHRIST,right?

2ndTimothyGroup · Nov 24, 2021

seed_time_harvest said:

I know . . . it would have been helpful if our pastors would teach that the reason for Christ's coming to earth is to redeem us of this Curse.

Galatians 3:10-13 NLT - "But those who depend on the law to make them right with God are under his curse, for the Scriptures say, "Cursed is everyone who does not observe and obey all the commands that are written in God's Book of the Law." 11 So it is clear that no one can be made right with God by trying to keep the law. For the Scriptures say, "It is through faith that a righteous person has life." 12 This way of faith is very different from the way of law, which says, "It is through obeying the law that a person has life." 13 But Christ has rescued us from the curse pronounced by the law. When he was hung on the cross, he took upon himself the curse for our wrongdoing. For it is written in the Scriptures, "Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree."

This is the Purpose of Christ, to redeem us of the Curse. And this leads us to the Work of Christ, which is fully described in Colossians 2:9-15. And the Effect of Christ is described in Romans 12:2 . . . a total Transformation which comes by being relieved of this Curse. And in be being relieved of this Curse, we are finally able to Serve and Love the Lord, and obey His Holy Commands. Until this Curse has been lifted, our Father remains the Devil.

Roughsoul1991 · Nov 24, 2021

seed_time_harvest said:

You can greive or quench the Spirit as Scripture says but that doesn't make you lose salvation it simply hurts how close you are to God.

What hurts salvation is based in faith. If you lose faith, no longer believe, apostasy, all away. Then all the scriptures that speak on falling away or not remaining in Christ will apply.

2ndTimothyGroup · Nov 24, 2021

Roughsoul1991 said:

Your post reminds me of how many times Paul urged people to model themselves after himself, for when they did, they'd be modeling themselves after Christ as Paul modeled himself after Christ. I think Paul made this plea some 18 times. His utter consistency is the result of his Damascus Road experience.

I wish that everyone knew the Raw, Almighty Power of the Lord.

Vindicator · Nov 24, 2021

seed_time_harvest said:

That doesn't appear to be what the parable is teaching:

14 The sower sows the word. 15 And these are the ones by the wayside where the word is sown. When they hear, Satan comes immediately and takes away the word that was sown in their hearts. 16 These likewise are the ones sown on stony ground who, when they hear the word, immediately receive it with gladness; 17 and they have no root in themselves, and so endure only for a time. Afterward, when tribulation or persecution arises for the word’s sake, immediately they stumble. 18 Now these are the ones sown among thorns; they are the ones who hear the word, 19 and the cares of this world, the deceitfulness of riches, and the desires for other things entering in choke the word, and it becomes unfruitful. 20 But these are the ones sown on good ground, those who hear the word, receive it, and bear fruit: some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some a hundred. (Mark 4:14-20)

Now if you'll notice, the ones on stony ground received the word and grew for a time by it, and no one can grow through the word unless they have truly received it, believed it and begun applying it. Yet they only grew in the word for a time until affliction or persecution arose, and then the word within them stopped growing.

Likewise with those where the word was sown among thorns. The word that was sown was growing within them, but then the cares of this world began to choke out that growth, so they never let the word continue to grow until it finally produced 30, 60, or 100 fold.

As scriptre says, "he who endures to the end shall be saved," and the same principle applies with this parable. The ones who continue letting the word grow within them will eventually produce fruit. But if they stop letting it grow, the seed that was born within them dies away, and they in turn die with it, spiritually speaking.

2ndTimothyGroup · Nov 24, 2021

Vindicator said:

That doesn't appear to be what the parable is teaching:

14 The sower sows the word. 15 And these are the ones by the wayside where the word is sown. When they hear, Satan comes immediately and takes away the word that was sown in their hearts. 16 These likewise are the ones sown on stony ground who, when they hear the word, immediately receive it with gladness; 17 and they have no root in themselves, and so endure only for a time. Afterward, when tribulation or persecution arises for the word’s sake, immediately they stumble. 18 Now these are the ones sown among thorns; they are the ones who hear the word, 19 and the cares of this world, the deceitfulness of riches, and the desires for other things entering in choke the word, and it becomes unfruitful. 20 But these are the ones sown on good ground, those who hear the word, receive it, and bear fruit: some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some a hundred. (Mark 4:14-20)

Now if you'll notice, the ones on stony ground received the word and grew for a time by it, and no one can grow through the word unless they have truly received it, believed it and begun applying it. Yet they only grew in the word for a time until affliction or persecution arose, and then the word within them stopped growing.

Likewise with those where the word was sown among thorns. The word that was sown was growing within them, but then the cares of this world began to choke out that growth, so they never let the word continue to grow until it finally produced 30, 60, or 100 fold.

As scriptre says, "he who endures to the end shall be saved," and the same principle applies with this parable. The ones who continue letting the word grow within them will eventually produce fruit. But if they stop letting it grow, the seed that was born within them dies away, and they in turn die with it, spiritually speaking.

I like what you wrote, but what do we do with all of the Scripture that shows that those who God chose, Christ will lose none of them . . . that Salvation is the Work of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit? We certainly have a mysterious Bible, don't we?

Vindicator · Nov 24, 2021

2ndTimothyGroup said:

Well, I will give you my interpretation of the passage you are referring to. You can judge for yourself if what I say makes any sense. He was comparing Himself there to the manna which the Jews were fed by the hand of God from Heaven, and the meaning is that Jesus was promising to provide for His own just as faithfully as God did with the Israelites in the wilderness:

30 Therefore they said to Him, “What sign will You perform then, that we may see it and believe You? What work will You do? 31 Our fathers ate the manna in the desert; as it is written, ‘He gave them bread from heaven to eat.’ ” 32 Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, Moses did not give you the bread from heaven, but My Father gives you the true bread from heaven. 33 For the bread of God is He who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.” 34 Then they said to Him, “Lord, give us this bread always.” 35 And Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst. 36 But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe. 37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. 40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.” (John 6:30-40)

When read in this context, it is less a promise about salvation as about provision, in that God faithfully provided for all the Israelites in the wilderness. Yet many of them turned against Him anyway, and so too was it clearly possible for the New Testament saints to as well. This is what Paul taught in 1st Corinthians:

10 Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea, 2 all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, 3 all ate the same spiritual food, 4 and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ. 5 But with most of them God was not well pleased, for their bodies were scattered in the wilderness. 6 Now these things became our examples, to the intent that we should not lust after evil things as they also lusted. 7 And do not become idolaters as were some of them. As it is written, “The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.” 8 Nor let us commit sexual immorality, as some of them did, and in one day twenty-three thousand fell; 9 nor let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed by serpents; 10 nor complain, as some of them also complained, and were destroyed by the destroyer. 11 Now all these things happened to them as examples, and they were written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages have come. 12 Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall. (1 Corinthians 10:1-12)

In this passage he is again talking about God's faithfulness to provide, and yet by verse 5 he brings up how they were nevertheless unfaithful to Him. So the overall promise of Christ in John 6 is that He will never leave us nor forsake us, and always provide for us the true Bread of Life so long as we keep trusting in Him and leaning on Him as our provision. If we do not, however, the same fate can befall us as befell the Israelites in the wilderness.

riverhooks · Nov 25, 2021

Peaks and Valleys , I have backslidden been restored , backslidden again. I think I'm finally in a good place. Never lost the fear of the Lord , but reaping what I have sown is pretty grievous at 71 years old. A rough thing about backslidding is you have to go through the school of receiving the forgiveness of God all over again everytime. It is tough when we give the devil a paid vacation and beat ourselves up every day. I'm not talking to Calvinists in their minds they were hardly if ever unsaved . Oh well new to this chat fun so far. Bottom line before you cast a stone, think. Who are you to judge another mans servant ? To his own master he stands or falls. Psalm 150 . All in.

riverhooks · Nov 25, 2021

riverhooks said:

Peaks and Valleys , I have backslidden been restored , backslidden again. I think I'm finally in a good place. Never lost the fear of the Lord , but reaping what I have sown is pretty grievous at 71 years old. A rough thing about backslidding is you have to go through the school of receiving the forgiveness of God all over again everytime. It is tough when we give the devil a paid vacation and beat ourselves up every day. I'm not talking to Calvinists in their minds they were hardly if ever unsaved . Oh well new to this chat fun so far. Bottom line before you cast a stone, think. Who are you to judge another mans servant ? To his own master he stands or falls. Psalm 150 . All in.

seed_time_harvest · Nov 25, 2021

riverhooks said:

I think you are saying backsliding does not mean you are not saved anymore but It means that the person stopped trying to purify themselves even as they are pure/renew their mind/present their body a living sacrifice/continued sanctifying the body to be like the new creation they have become.GOD communicates with us SPIRIT to Spirit and not SPIRIT to flesh although we get Information to our understanding by speaking In tongues.

seed_time_harvest · Nov 25, 2021

Roughsoul1991 said:

Is It possible for the prodigal son to stop believing that his father Is his earthly father was really his father?
I don't believe you can lose faith but I do believe you can reject It and a person Won't reject It unless they first reject It In their heart and not just In words and IMO that would be blasphemy so then IE If the prodigal son had not come back It would have been because he rejected his father.

Sidenote:Even the dEmons believe and tremble .

Vindicator · Nov 25, 2021

riverhooks said:

Welcome to Christian Chat. I like your site name. It's clever.

Make the Lord the center of your life from here on out, Riverhooks, regardless of what anyone else thinks or says, and that includes here on the forums. Just focus on growing in Him by whatever means helps you the most, and don't get sidetracked again by things that only lead you into frustration and disillusionment.

God bless,
Vindicator

2ndTimothyGroup · Nov 25, 2021

Vindicator said:

Well, I will give you my interpretation of the passage you are referring to. You can judge for yourself if what I say makes any sense. He was comparing Himself there to the manna which the Jews were fed by the hand of God from Heaven, and the meaning is that Jesus was promising to provide for His own just as faithfully as God did with the Israelites in the wilderness:

30 Therefore they said to Him, “What sign will You perform then, that we may see it and believe You? What work will You do? 31 Our fathers ate the manna in the desert; as it is written, ‘He gave them bread from heaven to eat.’ ” 32 Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, Moses did not give you the bread from heaven, but My Father gives you the true bread from heaven. 33 For the bread of God is He who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.” 34 Then they said to Him, “Lord, give us this bread always.” 35 And Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst. 36 But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe. 37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. 40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.” (John 6:30-40)

When read in this context, it is less a promise about salvation as about provision, in that God faithfully provided for all the Israelites in the wilderness. Yet many of them turned against Him anyway, and so too was it clearly possible for the New Testament saints to as well. This is what Paul taught in 1st Corinthians:

10 Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea, 2 all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, 3 all ate the same spiritual food, 4 and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ. 5 But with most of them God was not well pleased, for their bodies were scattered in the wilderness. 6 Now these things became our examples, to the intent that we should not lust after evil things as they also lusted. 7 And do not become idolaters as were some of them. As it is written, “The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.” 8 Nor let us commit sexual immorality, as some of them did, and in one day twenty-three thousand fell; 9 nor let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed by serpents; 10 nor complain, as some of them also complained, and were destroyed by the destroyer. 11 Now all these things happened to them as examples, and they were written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages have come. 12 Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall. (1 Corinthians 10:1-12)

In this passage he is again talking about God's faithfulness to provide, and yet by verse 5 he brings up how they were nevertheless unfaithful to Him. So the overall promise of Christ in John 6 is that He will never leave us nor forsake us, and always provide for us the true Bread of Life so long as we keep trusting in Him and leaning on Him as our provision. If we do not, however, the same fate can befall us as befell the Israelites in the wilderness.

As said, there are MANY passages that indicate that Salvation is by the Plan of God, and not that of ourselves. So, I'm not looking for an explanation for each verse. At the expense writing long posts, I offer one at a time, for I know, already, that you are well familiar with each passage that I might offer, whether from the OT or the NT.

Ephesians 2:8-10 NKJV - "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them."

Vindicator · Nov 25, 2021

2ndTimothyGroup said:

Salvation is a gift of God, and is not attainable by works. The confusing part for many, however, is in not understanding that God's grace can be rescinded if we do not respond to it appropriately. Some argue this turns it back into salvation by works, but it doesn't. It just means either you will receive His grace or you will not, depending on if you truly make Him Lord over your life or just offer Him lip service but refuse to give Him your life. You will still never attain Heaven by your works either way.

But let me show you a passage that explains this:

21 Then Peter came to Him and said, “Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? Up to seven times?” 22 Jesus said to him, “I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven. 23 Therefore the kingdom of heaven is like a certain king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. 24 And when he had begun to settle accounts, one was brought to him who owed him ten thousand talents. 25 But as he was not able to pay, his master commanded that he be sold, with his wife and children and all that he had, and that payment be made. 26 The servant therefore fell down before him, saying, ‘Master, have patience with me, and I will pay you all.’ 27 Then the master of that servant was moved with compassion, released him, and forgave him the debt. 28 “But that servant went out and found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred denarii; and he laid hands on him and took him by the throat, saying, ‘Pay me what you owe!’ 29 So his fellow servant fell down at his feet and begged him, saying, ‘Have patience with me, and I will pay you all.’ 30 And he would not, but went and threw him into prison till he should pay the debt. 31 So when his fellow servants saw what had been done, they were very grieved, and came and told their master all that had been done. 32 Then his master, after he had called him, said to him, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you begged me. 33 Should you not also have had compassion on your fellow servant, just as I had pity on you?’ 34 And his master was angry, and delivered him to the torturers until he should pay all that was due to him. 35 “So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother his trespasses.” (Matthew 18:21-35)

This passage teaches that we cannot pay our own sin debt. It is insurmountable. So only the grace of God can forgive it. But now, if you'll notice, the Lord here rescinded His grace upon the unforgiving servant because the servant didn't respond to it properly. He would not be forgiving of others, even though his Lord had been exceedingly forgiving of him. So will it be for those who think they will enter Heaven without responding to His grace by making Him Lord over their lives. It doesn't mean we have to walk in perfection; no one can do that anyway. But it does mean we must make Him Lord, and not just presume upon His grace and then go off and do whatever we please.

2ndTimothyGroup · Nov 25, 2021

Vindicator said:

The problem is: Circumcision.

Physical circumcision cannot be rescinded, and neither is Spiritual Circumcision. Once the Curse of the Lord has been lifted from a person, their minds are freed (key word, there) to Love, Worship, and obey the commands and decrees of the Lord. Who wants their phallus to become, once again, uncircumcised?

Deuteronomy 30:6 NIV - "The LORD your God will circumcise your hearts and the hearts of your descendants, so that you may love him with all your heart and with all your soul, and live."

Above, the key phrase is "so that." The purpose of Spiritual Circumcision is to cause a person to "love him" and "live." (Edit - This explains the Romans 12:2 Transformation - Please share your total Transformation story below for our edification).

Deut 30:6, and the other passages just like it, are the Purpose for Christ. Spiritual Circumcision is the Work of Christ. And the Effect of the Purpose and Work of Christ is the Changed Heart . . . SO THAT . . . we will Love the Lord (including our enemies), receive the Promised Blessing of Eternal Life, which is what it means to "Live."

Ezekiel 11:19-20 KJV - "And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh: That they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God."

What I have offered to you is the actual Gospel of Jesus Christ. This is the "Heart" of the Bible. No pun intended, however, this pun is the pun of God. This is the Mysterious Plan that Paul refers to in Ephesians chapters 3 and 2. Yes, read chapter 3 first, then chapter 2. This will help to put the Gospel, the Mysterious Plan of God in to better perspective.

Colossians 2:11-15 NLT - "When you came to Christ, you were "circumcised," but not by a physical procedure. Christ performed a spiritual circumcision--the cutting away of your sinful nature. 12 For you were buried with Christ when you were baptized. And with him you were raised to new life because you trusted the mighty power of God, who raised Christ from the dead. 13 You were dead because of your sins and because your sinful nature was not yet cut away. Then God made you alive with Christ, for he forgave all our sins. 14 He canceled the record of the charges against us and took it away by nailing it to the cross. 15 In this way, he disarmed the spiritual rulers and authorities. He shamed them publicly by his victory over them on the cross."

Lanolin · Nov 25, 2021

with seeds (literal seeds) is they dont die away if sown in bad soil, they either remain dormant, or they do grow DESPITE being in bad soil.

If a seed is corrupted, its actually rotten.

Roughsoul1991 · Nov 25, 2021

seed_time_harvest said:

But are the demons saved? Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is the unforgivable sin. We blasphemy the Spirit when we reject the Spirits call to faith in Jesus Christ. As long as one stays in rebellion and denies the gift of grace how can they be saved? It takes much more than intellectual knowledge of God the Father. It takes knowing the Son.

John 14:6
New International Version
6 Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

Backsliding

Senior Member

Senior Member

Senior Member

Senior Member

Well-known member

Senior Member

Well-known member

Active member

Well-known member

Active member

Disciple

Disciple

Senior Member

Senior Member

Active member

Well-known member

Active member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Senior Member