He Who Spares His Rod Hates His Son
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I agree, it is important to be sure you understand what the words in scripture meant to the writer. God speaks in spiritual terms, they explained it in their own language.
It is more important to never go by the interpretation of one verse of scripture. All scripture agrees with all other scripture, there are always several scriptures about the same thing. We must keep in mind the attributes of God who gives us scripture, God never disagrees with God. It would not be in the nature of God to beat a child, that rules that idea out. But God is saying to give a physical hurt to help a child learn.
If a child does not learn to behave, those actions of his as an adult will cause extreme pain. When we love our children we want the best for them, and bad behavior never results in what is best. It is up to the parent to find the most effective way to teach a child. If a child reacts to a spanking it makes it simple for the parent, they learn that "hey, that doesn't work and life goes on. They know they are loved. Some children require other ways for a child to be effectively trained.
It is more important to never go by the interpretation of one verse of scripture. All scripture agrees with all other scripture, there are always several scriptures about the same thing. We must keep in mind the attributes of God who gives us scripture, God never disagrees with God. It would not be in the nature of God to beat a child, that rules that idea out. But God is saying to give a physical hurt to help a child learn.
If a child does not learn to behave, those actions of his as an adult will cause extreme pain. When we love our children we want the best for them, and bad behavior never results in what is best. It is up to the parent to find the most effective way to teach a child. If a child reacts to a spanking it makes it simple for the parent, they learn that "hey, that doesn't work and life goes on. They know they are loved. Some children require other ways for a child to be effectively trained.
right yes exactly it was passed beginning I think with Noah probably after exiting the ark is where they really Began being compiled
“And surely your blood of your lives will I require; at the hand of every beast will I require it, and at the hand of man; at the hand of every man's brother will I require the life of man. Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.”
Genesis 9:5-6 KJV
I only say that because Cain wasn’t required at his life beforehand for the murder of Abel
“And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground. And now art thou cursed from the earth, which hath opened her mouth to receive thy brother's blood from thy hand; When thou tillest the ground, it shall not henceforth yield unto thee her strength; a fugitive and a vagabond shalt thou be in the earth. And Cain said unto the Lord, My punishment is greater than I can bear.”
Genesis 4:10-13 KJV
so Moses law of murder didn’t exist yet he installed that seemingly with Noah’s covenant requiring mans blood to pay for shedding mans blood
Beforehand we know the earth was filled with violence so I think probably that law began there with none covenant
it was always being added because of mans transgression for instance cain kills abel and then in response God announces in the next covenant to Noah , murder is punished by death sentance.
Moses law was given for a specific purpose to make known sin to mankind who were corrupted by the good and evil of the forbidden knowledge and became wicked hacking no discernment so God gave the law to reveal sin to mankind “ this is all sin “ and this is what happens if you do it “
“Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.”
Romans 3:19-20
so for instance in my theme here regarding murder it was established after cain murdered Abel that any man that kills must be killed. And Moses law was given later containing this element
“Thou shalt not kill “ became one of the Ten Commandments of
Moses law , anyone who kills another must be killed became a judgement of Moses law.
it’s interesting because forminstance when they came out of the very idolatrous Egypt who made many false gods the first commandment is don’t make false gods ….
it seems commandments that tell
Men what not to do , are only given when men start behaving those ways as in always is in response to sin revere is a law given saying “ don’t do That , it is sin and this is the punishment “
But if we just do what Jesus said is the right things and not murder and rob and cheat on one another we don’t really
Need any part of that law because we’re doing what we know Pleases God following Christ and the gospel we aren’t lying cheating and stealing , not attacking and killing people or
Making idols to worship
So we just need to be taught about Jesus and what he taught his believers and what he did for all Of us who believe.
The law assumes you are a wicked sinner that just not kill lie chest and steal
the gospel says we are Gods newly
Born children and were taught to
Love each other help
Each other , live at peace with others , just simply do good and when you realize you have made a mistake and done wrong acknowledge it and repent and move on from it it’s so much better to have grave while we follow God rather than condemnation for every mistake
“And surely your blood of your lives will I require; at the hand of every beast will I require it, and at the hand of man; at the hand of every man's brother will I require the life of man. Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.”
Genesis 9:5-6 KJV
I only say that because Cain wasn’t required at his life beforehand for the murder of Abel
“And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground. And now art thou cursed from the earth, which hath opened her mouth to receive thy brother's blood from thy hand; When thou tillest the ground, it shall not henceforth yield unto thee her strength; a fugitive and a vagabond shalt thou be in the earth. And Cain said unto the Lord, My punishment is greater than I can bear.”
Genesis 4:10-13 KJV
so Moses law of murder didn’t exist yet he installed that seemingly with Noah’s covenant requiring mans blood to pay for shedding mans blood
Beforehand we know the earth was filled with violence so I think probably that law began there with none covenant
it was always being added because of mans transgression for instance cain kills abel and then in response God announces in the next covenant to Noah , murder is punished by death sentance.
Moses law was given for a specific purpose to make known sin to mankind who were corrupted by the good and evil of the forbidden knowledge and became wicked hacking no discernment so God gave the law to reveal sin to mankind “ this is all sin “ and this is what happens if you do it “
“Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.”
Romans 3:19-20
so for instance in my theme here regarding murder it was established after cain murdered Abel that any man that kills must be killed. And Moses law was given later containing this element
“Thou shalt not kill “ became one of the Ten Commandments of
Moses law , anyone who kills another must be killed became a judgement of Moses law.
it’s interesting because forminstance when they came out of the very idolatrous Egypt who made many false gods the first commandment is don’t make false gods ….
it seems commandments that tell
Men what not to do , are only given when men start behaving those ways as in always is in response to sin revere is a law given saying “ don’t do That , it is sin and this is the punishment “
But if we just do what Jesus said is the right things and not murder and rob and cheat on one another we don’t really
Need any part of that law because we’re doing what we know Pleases God following Christ and the gospel we aren’t lying cheating and stealing , not attacking and killing people or
Making idols to worship
So we just need to be taught about Jesus and what he taught his believers and what he did for all Of us who believe.
The law assumes you are a wicked sinner that just not kill lie chest and steal
the gospel says we are Gods newly
Born children and were taught to
Love each other help
Each other , live at peace with others , just simply do good and when you realize you have made a mistake and done wrong acknowledge it and repent and move on from it it’s so much better to have grave while we follow God rather than condemnation for every mistake
I love your post. Adam and Eve had a law . . . DON'T EAT THAT FRUIT! In fact, they were told to not even touch the Tree of KOGAE, lest they die.
If you ever have the time, get your hands on the book of Jubilees. It is absolutely amazing and fascinating. I did not find one bit of it that fell into contradiction to our Holy Word of God. It speaks of regulations and ordinances that the two of them had to follow, including purification procedures after their being created. It even outlines how Rebecca delivered the Spirit to another. Here are my notes and the subsequent text from Jubilees (sorry, changing subject a bit, here).
Jacob received the indwelling Spirit through his mother, Rebecca. The Spirit entered into her mouth and she proceeded to deliver the Spirit . . . through her mouth.
"And she said: 'Blessed be the Lord God, and may His holy name be blessed for ever and ever, who has given me Jacob as a pure son and a holy seed; for he is Thine, and Thine shall his seed be continually and throughout all the generations for evermore. Bless him, O Lord, and place in my mouth the blessing of righteousness, that I may bless him.' And at that hour, when the spirit of righteousness descended into her mouth, she placed both her hands on the head of Jacob, and said: Blessed art thou, Lord of righteousness and God of the ages And may He bless thee beyond all the generations of men. May He give thee, my Son, the path of righteousness, And reveal righteousness to thy seed. And may He make thy sons many during thy life, And may they arise according to the number of the months of the year. And may their sons become many and great beyond the stars of heaven, And their numbers be more than the sand of the sea. And may He give them this goodly land -as He said He would give it to Abraham and to his seed after him alway- And may they hold it as a possession for ever. And may I see (born) unto thee, my son, blessed children during my life, And a blessed and holy seed may all thy seed be. And as thou hast refreshed thy mother's spirit during her life, The womb of her that bare thee blesses thee thus, [My affection] and my breasts bless thee And my mouth and my tongue praise thee greatly. Increase and spread over the earth, And may thy seed be perfect in the joy of heaven and earth for ever; And may thy seed rejoice, And on the great day of peace may it have peace. And may thy name and thy seed endure to all the ages, And may the Most High God be their God, And may the God of righteousness dwell with them, And by them may His sanctuary be built unto all the ages. Blessed be he that blesseth thee, And all flesh that curseth thee falsely, may it be cursed.' And she kissed him, and said to him; 'May the Lord of the world love thee As the heart of thy mother and her affection rejoice in thee and bless thee.' And she ceased from blessing."
If you ever have the time, get your hands on the book of Jubilees. It is absolutely amazing and fascinating. I did not find one bit of it that fell into contradiction to our Holy Word of God. It speaks of regulations and ordinances that the two of them had to follow, including purification procedures after their being created. It even outlines how Rebecca delivered the Spirit to another. Here are my notes and the subsequent text from Jubilees (sorry, changing subject a bit, here).
Jacob received the indwelling Spirit through his mother, Rebecca. The Spirit entered into her mouth and she proceeded to deliver the Spirit . . . through her mouth.
"And she said: 'Blessed be the Lord God, and may His holy name be blessed for ever and ever, who has given me Jacob as a pure son and a holy seed; for he is Thine, and Thine shall his seed be continually and throughout all the generations for evermore. Bless him, O Lord, and place in my mouth the blessing of righteousness, that I may bless him.' And at that hour, when the spirit of righteousness descended into her mouth, she placed both her hands on the head of Jacob, and said: Blessed art thou, Lord of righteousness and God of the ages And may He bless thee beyond all the generations of men. May He give thee, my Son, the path of righteousness, And reveal righteousness to thy seed. And may He make thy sons many during thy life, And may they arise according to the number of the months of the year. And may their sons become many and great beyond the stars of heaven, And their numbers be more than the sand of the sea. And may He give them this goodly land -as He said He would give it to Abraham and to his seed after him alway- And may they hold it as a possession for ever. And may I see (born) unto thee, my son, blessed children during my life, And a blessed and holy seed may all thy seed be. And as thou hast refreshed thy mother's spirit during her life, The womb of her that bare thee blesses thee thus, [My affection] and my breasts bless thee And my mouth and my tongue praise thee greatly. Increase and spread over the earth, And may thy seed be perfect in the joy of heaven and earth for ever; And may thy seed rejoice, And on the great day of peace may it have peace. And may thy name and thy seed endure to all the ages, And may the Most High God be their God, And may the God of righteousness dwell with them, And by them may His sanctuary be built unto all the ages. Blessed be he that blesseth thee, And all flesh that curseth thee falsely, may it be cursed.' And she kissed him, and said to him; 'May the Lord of the world love thee As the heart of thy mother and her affection rejoice in thee and bless thee.' And she ceased from blessing."
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That's a really good question. I suppose we might be able to "google" it. 
I've read the Bible in a timeline, chronological order several times now, and the book of Jubilees fits right in. It is UNBELIEVABLE! It even teaches and supports the core doctrine of the Bible . . . Circumcision of Heart.
"And after this they will turn to Me in all uprightness and with all (their) heart and with all (their) soul, and I will circumcise the foreskin of their heart and the foreskin of the heart of their seed, and I will create in them a holy spirit, and I will cleanse them so that they shall not turn away from Me from that day unto eternity. And their souls will cleave to Me and to all My commandments, and they will fulfil My commandments, and I will be their Father and they shall be My children. And they all shall be called children of the living God, and every angel and every spirit shall know, yea, they shall know that these are My children, and that I am their Father in uprightness and righteousness, and that I love them."
Jubil 01:22-24
The above sounds exactly like Eze 11:19-20, Eze 36:25-27, and Deut 30:6.
Just . . . unbelievable.
I've read the Bible in a timeline, chronological order several times now, and the book of Jubilees fits right in. It is UNBELIEVABLE! It even teaches and supports the core doctrine of the Bible . . . Circumcision of Heart.
"And after this they will turn to Me in all uprightness and with all (their) heart and with all (their) soul, and I will circumcise the foreskin of their heart and the foreskin of the heart of their seed, and I will create in them a holy spirit, and I will cleanse them so that they shall not turn away from Me from that day unto eternity. And their souls will cleave to Me and to all My commandments, and they will fulfil My commandments, and I will be their Father and they shall be My children. And they all shall be called children of the living God, and every angel and every spirit shall know, yea, they shall know that these are My children, and that I am their Father in uprightness and righteousness, and that I love them."
Jubil 01:22-24
The above sounds exactly like Eze 11:19-20, Eze 36:25-27, and Deut 30:6.
Just . . . unbelievable.
Pro 23:13 Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die.
Pro 23:14 Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell.
Pro 26:3 A whip for the horse, a bridle for the ass, and a rod for the fool's back.
Pro 10:13 In the lips of him that hath understanding wisdom is found: but a rod is for the back of him that is void of understanding.
Pro 13:24 He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes.
Speaking to a child about doing right is always the first step in disciplining a child but that does not always work.
A rod for the fool's back which a fool is someone that will not listen after you tell them time and time again for they are in defiance of their parents and the only way they will do right is with physical punishment.
A child like that should not hate their parents for they know that their behavior is one where they are not listening to their parents.
You do not snatch your child up every time they do wrong and physically discipline them for some children are not in defiance of their parents but did wrong like all humans will do from time to time.
But if their children will not listen with the attitude of disobedience of their parents on purpose them physical discipline can be in order.
Pro 23:14 Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell.
Pro 26:3 A whip for the horse, a bridle for the ass, and a rod for the fool's back.
Pro 10:13 In the lips of him that hath understanding wisdom is found: but a rod is for the back of him that is void of understanding.
Pro 13:24 He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes.
Speaking to a child about doing right is always the first step in disciplining a child but that does not always work.
A rod for the fool's back which a fool is someone that will not listen after you tell them time and time again for they are in defiance of their parents and the only way they will do right is with physical punishment.
A child like that should not hate their parents for they know that their behavior is one where they are not listening to their parents.
You do not snatch your child up every time they do wrong and physically discipline them for some children are not in defiance of their parents but did wrong like all humans will do from time to time.
But if their children will not listen with the attitude of disobedience of their parents on purpose them physical discipline can be in order.
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T
Agreed. Who looks back at the time(s) when they were spanked and thinks of those memories fondly? There can also be a fine between what is considered "appropriate" vs what is borderline abusive, and the child and parent may have different views on this and they may never come to an agreement. I know someone whose mother pinched him frequently when he misbehaved; he is elderly now and still believes his mother was wrong for doing this. Imagine spanking, which is much more severe treatment. Things like this cause trust issues.
It's called aversion therapy. When I see and hear young children today, I am astounded at the lack of respect for anyone at all, let alone parents. These kids grow up to be teenagers, who are barely human anyway. Police complain that kids don't obey the law. Why would they? They've been allowed to do as they please since birth. Why should they change when they get a drivers license? That's if they bother.
So no, in the Western world at least, kids are not disciplined and there is a price to pay. In many countries it is illegal to use physical discipline.
Children need boundaries. "Time out" is not discipline. Kids will push and push until a parent pushes back.
It must also be said that striking a child in a fit of temper for nothing much will result in a backlash. I reserved discipline (it's NOT punishment, by the way) for obvious rebellion and disobedience.
Adults do not get away with things as it may seem. God certainly takes note of our attitudes and He indeed disciplines us according to His wisdom. It may not seem obvious. For example, one way to get yourself unemployed is to complain constantly about your job. If you are wise, you will ask God why you lost it. You may not like the answer, but you may also learn something for the next time you start complaining.
There is a law of sowing and reaping. I suggest that you look up James Dobson's "Dare to Discipline".
I have four grandchildren. I see them rarely. They vary from more or less OK to monstrous. The little girl is spoiled rotten and is a perfect example of how not to raise a child. My daughter spent so much money on Christmas presents that she could not afford to register her car. The parents are ruled by the children, exactly the opposite of how God would have it.
So no, in the Western world at least, kids are not disciplined and there is a price to pay. In many countries it is illegal to use physical discipline.
Children need boundaries. "Time out" is not discipline. Kids will push and push until a parent pushes back.
It must also be said that striking a child in a fit of temper for nothing much will result in a backlash. I reserved discipline (it's NOT punishment, by the way) for obvious rebellion and disobedience.
Adults do not get away with things as it may seem. God certainly takes note of our attitudes and He indeed disciplines us according to His wisdom. It may not seem obvious. For example, one way to get yourself unemployed is to complain constantly about your job. If you are wise, you will ask God why you lost it. You may not like the answer, but you may also learn something for the next time you start complaining.
There is a law of sowing and reaping. I suggest that you look up James Dobson's "Dare to Discipline".
I have four grandchildren. I see them rarely. They vary from more or less OK to monstrous. The little girl is spoiled rotten and is a perfect example of how not to raise a child. My daughter spent so much money on Christmas presents that she could not afford to register her car. The parents are ruled by the children, exactly the opposite of how God would have it.
Or not. I was smacked as a child. I know that I got away with a great deal more than I was caught doing. I was crafty. We had a pretty dysfunctional family (4 kids). My dad was aggressive, drank a lot, gambled and his job kept him away from home a lot. I left home when I was 15, as soon as it was humanly possible.
I do not resent my upbringing. We are responsible for how we respond. And what is the alternative? Do as you please and end up jail bait or wrapping a car around a tree? Pinching is nasty and will likely bruise. A smack on the behind is no big deal.
There is an age when discipline is pointless, but until then God's wisdom is far superior to man's.
I do not resent my upbringing. We are responsible for how we respond. And what is the alternative? Do as you please and end up jail bait or wrapping a car around a tree? Pinching is nasty and will likely bruise. A smack on the behind is no big deal.
There is an age when discipline is pointless, but until then God's wisdom is far superior to man's.
The question is how to enforce discipline? It's obvious (to me at least) that physical discipline was the answer.
Amplified Bible. Proverbs 23
13Do not withhold discipline from the child; If you [a]swat him with a reed-like rod [applied with godly wisdom], he will not die.
14You shall swat him with the reed-like rod And rescue his life from Sheol (the nether world, the place of the dead).
It is possible to sting without causing an injury. And that is how discipline should be enforced. Breaking the skin is not on.
Amplified Bible. Proverbs 23
13Do not withhold discipline from the child; If you [a]swat him with a reed-like rod [applied with godly wisdom], he will not die.
14You shall swat him with the reed-like rod And rescue his life from Sheol (the nether world, the place of the dead).
It is possible to sting without causing an injury. And that is how discipline should be enforced. Breaking the skin is not on.
100% Agree!
When Jesus was a little boy, did Joseph and Mary know that Jesus would one day be on a cross for all of humanity? No, for the Word tells us that no one Truly believed in Jesus (its too bad that John the Baptist couldn't live to see what happened to his Almighty cousin). So, when Jesus skipped on his parents for an entire night, and although they were unhappy and concerned about Him, did He receive any kind of punishment? No, He didn't. He was spoken to with deep concern, but they were not abusive in any way, shape, or form. And it is this kind of correction that I think that we should have all received as little children, and it is this kind of correction that we should issue to our children today. After all, they ARE children.
If anyone should be spanked, or hit with a "rod," it should be adults. Why? Because WE KNOW BETTER and children do not. Yet, adults commit their activities with total impunity. Things are a bit backward (in my opinion).
When Jesus was a little boy, did Joseph and Mary know that Jesus would one day be on a cross for all of humanity? No, for the Word tells us that no one Truly believed in Jesus (its too bad that John the Baptist couldn't live to see what happened to his Almighty cousin). So, when Jesus skipped on his parents for an entire night, and although they were unhappy and concerned about Him, did He receive any kind of punishment? No, He didn't. He was spoken to with deep concern, but they were not abusive in any way, shape, or form. And it is this kind of correction that I think that we should have all received as little children, and it is this kind of correction that we should issue to our children today. After all, they ARE children.
If anyone should be spanked, or hit with a "rod," it should be adults. Why? Because WE KNOW BETTER and children do not. Yet, adults commit their activities with total impunity. Things are a bit backward (in my opinion).
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That's a really good question. I suppose we might be able to "google" it.
I've read the Bible in a timeline, chronological order several times now, and the book of Jubilees fits right in. It is UNBELIEVABLE! It even teaches and supports the core doctrine of the Bible . . . Circumcision of Heart.
"And after this they will turn to Me in all uprightness and with all (their) heart and with all (their) soul, and I will circumcise the foreskin of their heart and the foreskin of the heart of their seed, and I will create in them a holy spirit, and I will cleanse them so that they shall not turn away from Me from that day unto eternity. And their souls will cleave to Me and to all My commandments, and they will fulfil My commandments, and I will be their Father and they shall be My children. And they all shall be called children of the living God, and every angel and every spirit shall know, yea, they shall know that these are My children, and that I am their Father in uprightness and righteousness, and that I love them."
Jubil 01:22-24
The above sounds exactly like Eze 11:19-20, Eze 36:25-27, and Deut 30:6.
Just . . . unbelievable.
I've read the Bible in a timeline, chronological order several times now, and the book of Jubilees fits right in. It is UNBELIEVABLE! It even teaches and supports the core doctrine of the Bible . . . Circumcision of Heart.
"And after this they will turn to Me in all uprightness and with all (their) heart and with all (their) soul, and I will circumcise the foreskin of their heart and the foreskin of the heart of their seed, and I will create in them a holy spirit, and I will cleanse them so that they shall not turn away from Me from that day unto eternity. And their souls will cleave to Me and to all My commandments, and they will fulfil My commandments, and I will be their Father and they shall be My children. And they all shall be called children of the living God, and every angel and every spirit shall know, yea, they shall know that these are My children, and that I am their Father in uprightness and righteousness, and that I love them."
Jubil 01:22-24
The above sounds exactly like Eze 11:19-20, Eze 36:25-27, and Deut 30:6.
Just . . . unbelievable.
and yes I find the Bible itself to be repetitive and remain in the same subjects throughout scripture as things unfold
I’ll definitely check it out thanks again for mentioning it