Jesus comes immediately AFTER the tribulation, there is no Left Behind Secret Rapture=Stop causing fear.

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Jul 23, 2018
12,199
2,775
113
Yes, the Coming of Christ is indeed noisy. That's a major argument we Postribbers use against Pretrib and their "Secret Rapture." If you don't believe in a Secret Rapture as a Pretribber, then you're a rare Pretribber indeed!
Show a pretribber ascribing to that.
What is rare is a postribber not bringing that nothingburger into the debate.
In fact i have seen that rabbit trail non issue brought forth by all of you.
It is a main talking point.
 
Jul 23, 2018
12,199
2,775
113
There is a pre-tribulation rapture. I do not believe that it will be a secret one...for in it will be the trumpet of God and the voice of the archangel (1 Thessalonians 4:13-18).
In the 10 virgin parable Jesus gathers his bride at midnight.
Angels warn them and wakes them up.

There will be those waking up and left behind if that occurs.

IF THAT OCCURS.

Could be.

Or could be daytime.


Be ready..
Only those worthy virgins are gathered.
.....and given a heads up
 
Jul 23, 2018
12,199
2,775
113
And i've seen MANY post-tribbers use the term "secret" rapture, whats your point ?
The postribbers erroneously cling to "one coming".

So they think the "secret rapture" component is some major talking point.

Jesus frames his coming at night.

The second coming on horses, as depicted by most, is during the day.
 
Jul 23, 2018
12,199
2,775
113
Oops! You screwed up. You have been claiming that post-trib made up this secret rapture language yet here you are admitting, "there will be a secret rapture as scripture says." Pretty dishonest of you to accuse post-trib of inventing that.

No, scripture does NOT say there is a secret rapture.
Did Jesus frame the rapture at night?
 
Jul 23, 2018
12,199
2,775
113
Now this is interesting.

I never thought about the rapture at night vs the second coming on horses during the day.

Yet another hurdle for postribbers.

Lol
 
Jul 23, 2018
12,199
2,775
113
No, it's still wrong. There isn't a third coming. At the one and only second coming is when Christ returns with the former dead and raptures the living. They meet in the clouds and will follow Christ where ever he goes which is down closer to the ground to fight an army on the ground. This battle is fought in the air by Christ according to Revelation 19.
Except that in that chapter....rev 19.... The bride has become the wife and the wedding supper has come .....in heaven.

That is irrefutable.
 
Jul 23, 2018
12,199
2,775
113
Right. Omission of a pretrib rapture, which isn't taught in the Bible.
I got the verses as you well know.

Postribbers have been challenged by me and others to produce a verse.

The NEVER HAVE.

we own the debate because of our verses, vs the postribbers extra biblical talking points

Honestly ask yourself why that is.
No verses.????

Bizarre
 
Nov 17, 2017
595
409
63
Blessed day to you all!

Its amazing how bible verses are isolated, not even considering the bible in "whole".

God Bless...
 
Jan 31, 2021
8,658
1,064
113
Show a pretribber ascribing to that.
What is rare is a postribber not bringing that nothingburger into the debate.
In fact i have seen that rabbit trail non issue brought forth by all of you.
It is a main talking point.
The largest nothing burger is the claim that Jesus takes resurrected/raptured believers to heaven.

If there was one, we'd all have eaten it by now.
 
Jan 31, 2021
8,658
1,064
113
The postribbers erroneously cling to "one coming".
Apparently you have a big problem with the Word of God. There is only ONE resurrection, the real subject, not the "rapture".

The issue is that all believers will receive a resurrection body, an imperishable body.

Explain 1 Cor 15:23 - But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

What is clear from this verse is that everyone who is saved will be resurrected "when He comes". I don't see any waves of resurrecgtion, or stages of resurrection. I just see that "those who belong to Him" will be resurrected "when He comes".

Help me out here, please.

Also, Luke 14:14 - and you will be blessed. Although they cannot repay you, you will be repaid at the resurrection of the righteous.”

Please help me understand how "the resurrection" really means "the series/waves/stages of resurrection".

Oh, and Acts 24:15 - and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.

I can only count 2 here; one for the saved, and one for the unsaved.

And since Rev 20:5, which is about saved people being resurrected, is actually called the FIRST resurrection, help me understand how there can be series/waves/stages of resurrections of the saved.
 
Jan 31, 2021
8,658
1,064
113
Now this is interesting.

I never thought about the rapture at night vs the second coming on horses during the day.

Yet another hurdle for postribbers.

Lol
Are you really so unaware of reality that you don't know that there is ALWAYS "night" on earth? All you have to do is look on the other side of earth where there is sunlight. Half of the earth is always in sunlight, and the other half is always in the dark.

I thought everyone knew that.

So, where is that "hurdle" to mention? Maybe you tripped over it as you were trying to pat your clever self on the back.
 
Jan 31, 2021
8,658
1,064
113
Except that in that chapter....rev 19.... The bride has become the wife and the wedding supper has come .....in heaven.
So, let's examine what "has come" means. Does it mean the wedding supper occurs JUST BEFORE the trip to earth where Jesus ends the Trib? Because that's exactly what the rest of the chapter shows.

I thought pretribbers claim that the wedding supper occurs in heaven immediately after the rapture when the resurrected and raptured believers get there.

That is irrefutable.
Can you prove your "irrefutable" claims?
 
Jan 31, 2021
8,658
1,064
113
FreeGrace2 said:
Right. Omission of a pretrib rapture, which isn't taught in the Bible.
I got the verses as you well know.
What I do know is that neither you nor any other pretribber has a verse that unambiguously states that Jesus takes resurrected/raptured believers to heaven. And that is a fact.

The ONLY way to prove your claim is to find such a verse.

Postribbers have been challenged by me and others to produce a verse.
And........you got 3. 2 Thess 2:1-3.

The NEVER HAVE
Lie.

we own the debate because of our verses, vs the postribbers extra biblical talking points
I haven't seen ANY "extabiblical talking points" by any posttribber. Could you point me to any?

btw, how can any pretribber seriously claim they "own the debate" when none of you have a verse that unambiguously shows Jesus taking resurrected/raptured believers to heaven?

Honestly ask yourself why that is.
No verses.????

Bizarre
That's exactly what I am thinking. It is bizarre to claim something that the Bible says NOTHING about.

Kinda like your "nothingburger".

Same ingredients.
 

Rondonmon

Senior Member
May 13, 2016
1,285
176
63
That's the usual argument, to try to prove that this generation is an end-time generation. However, it is illogical, because Jesus said all these signs would take place in "this generation," referring to his own generation.
Wrong, he gave the signs, and then the LAST SIGN was the Sun and Moon turning dark. How did you guys even figure out that Salvation comes by Faith alone at his rate, I mean this isn't even that hard to grasp. We get the Matt. 4-31 SIGNS then Jesus tells the disciples a Parable comparing things....

Matt. 24:32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree(after THE SIGNS); When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: (So, we can know when the Summer is nearby the Figs ripeness, LIKEWISE, see that, this is comparing the these two things, so LIKEWISE, when ye see what ? THESE THINGS........What things? These SIGNS Jesus just told us about, its like 12 by my count, and the LAST SIGN is all-important because Jesus says when ye see ALL THESE THINGS/Signs.)

33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

THIS GENERATION !! What Generation? The one that sees ALL THESE SIGNS, well What Signs? The SIGNS Jesus just told us about in Matt. 24:4-32, so what wraps up ALL THESE SIGNS? Well, what is the LAST SIGN?

The Last Sign

Matt. 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

This is not that hard brother, you guys want YOUR UNDERSTANDINGS to be correct more than you cherish the truth it seems, I don't get it tbh. This is an EASY UNDERSTANDING, it's not even a debatable point.

Jesus said THIS GENERATION referring to THE GENERATION that saw all of THESE SIGNS. Now go reread Matt. 24:4-31 and see the 12 or so signs for yourself.

Now, every other point you made after that first point becomes irrelevant.
 

lamad

Well-known member
Apr 14, 2021
1,293
107
63
FreeGrace2 said:
Right. Omission of a pretrib rapture, which isn't taught in the Bible.

What I do know is that neither you nor any other pretribber has a verse that unambiguously states that Jesus takes resurrected/raptured believers to heaven. And that is a fact.

The ONLY way to prove your claim is to find such a verse.


And........you got 3. 2 Thess 2:1-3.


Lie.


I haven't seen ANY "extabiblical talking points" by any posttribber. Could you point me to any?

btw, how can any pretribber seriously claim they "own the debate" when none of you have a verse that unambiguously shows Jesus taking resurrected/raptured believers to heaven?


That's exactly what I am thinking. It is bizarre to claim something that the Bible says NOTHING about.

Kinda like your "nothingburger".

Same ingredients.
John did not SEE the church leaving earth and heading towards heaven, but He did see the just raptured church IN HEAVEN and one of the saints spoke to him. You find this in Rev. chapter 7 as the great crowd too large to number. It is the church seen in heaven. HOW did they get there? Refer to John 14. Jesus came and got them. They were then with Him where He was: in heaven.

Oh, by the way, John saw that great crowd and wrote it in chapter 7, NOT IN CHAPTER 19, where Jesus comes to Armageddon.

Someone might wonder, WHY did God show John the just raptured church so early in the vision - before any part of the 70th week? The answer is simple, God showed John events in the same order in which things will happen. The truth is, the church is waiting at the 5th seal martyrs of the church age for that last martyr. Then the rapture will take place which will trigger the start of the Day of the Lord. So the rapture will be between the 5th and 6th seal. John seeing the church in heaven is in the perfect spot, right after the 6th seal start of the Day of the Lord.

How does this fit with Paul? Paul wrote in 1 Thes. 4 that the rapture would come just before wrath - exactly the way John shows it.
 

lamad

Well-known member
Apr 14, 2021
1,293
107
63
So, let's examine what "has come" means. Does it mean the wedding supper occurs JUST BEFORE the trip to earth where Jesus ends the Trib? Because that's exactly what the rest of the chapter shows.

I thought pretribbers claim that the wedding supper occurs in heaven immediately after the rapture when the resurrected and raptured believers get there.


Can you prove your "irrefutable" claims?
The Greek word translated "is come" is a Greek Aorist verb. The A reverses the meaning. (like our word "atypical:" the a changes the meaning.) It is a verb with NO tense. We cannot tell when from this verb because that information simply is not there. But we CAN tell when from where John wrote it: in chapter 19 and before Jesus leaves heaven for Armageddon.

By the way, classical pretrib had many holes, and the marriage and supper as soon as the church arrives in heaven is just one more hole. (The rapture in 4:1 is another hole. The Week starting at the first seal is yet another.)

However many holes, they are still correct that the rapture will be PRE-70th week.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
24,167
12,761
113
What I do know is that neither you nor any other pretribber has a verse that unambiguously states that Jesus takes resurrected/raptured believers to heaven. And that is a fact.
No. That is a fallacy. A major fallacy. So are you willing to retract this false statement after you have seen the Scripture? Or will you double down on your fallacies?

For our conversation [citizenship] is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ [who is now in Heaven]: Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself. (Phil 3;20,21)

This passage is about the Resurrection/Rapture when the "vile" mortal, corruptible human bodies of the saints will be transformed into glorious, immortal, incorruptible bodies. And where will these bodies go after they are "changed"? Will they not go to where their citizenship is? And where is their citizenship other than in Heaven, as plainly stated?

So you owe us all a retraction as well as an apology for trying to lead people astray.
 
Jan 31, 2021
8,658
1,064
113
John did not SEE the church leaving earth and heading towards heaven
Fact is, NO biblical writer saw what pretribbers claim will occur.

but He did see the just raptured church IN HEAVEN and one of the saints spoke to him. You find this in Rev. chapter 7 as the great crowd too large to number. It is the church seen in heaven. HOW did they get there? Refer to John 14. Jesus came and got them. They were then with Him where He was: in heaven.
Aren't you aware that by the time of the end times, and Tribulation, there will be FAR MORE NT saints in heaven than on earth. Add to that ALL the OT saints from Adam on. The number of living believers when Christ returns is just a fraction of all believers.

And Paul tells us unambiguously that ALL believers will be resurrected at once.

1 Cor 15:23 - But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

This verse says that Jesus is the FIRST human to receive a resurrection body (firstfruits). After that, "when He comes", it will be "those who belong to Him".

So, 2 questions for you.

1. Explain what "when He comes" refers to.
2. Explain who are "those who belong to Him".

My asnwers are these:

1. "when He comes" refers to the Second Advent.
2. "those who belong to Him" means EVERY saved person from Adam on.

Prove me wrong, please.

Oh, by the way, John saw that great crowd and wrote it in chapter 7, NOT IN CHAPTER 19, where Jesus comes to Armageddon.
Does not support anything close to a pretrib rapture. Again, from Christ's death and ascension, ALL NT believers go to heaven. So by the time we get to the Tribulation, those who are "alive and remain" will be just a fraction of an already 2,000+ yr history of dead saints.

Someone might wonder, WHY did God show John the just raptured church so early in the vision
OK, another question for you. Where do you get the idea that there is a "raptured church" in ch 7 anyway? Clarify.

How does this fit with Paul? Paul wrote in 1 Thes. 4 that the rapture would come just before wrath - exactly the way John shows it.
Please quote an actual verse that I can look up. I find NO mention of any space trip to heaven in the Bible, including 1 Thess 4.

And John never showed "it". Not in his gospel, not in his epistles, and not in Revelation.
 
Jan 31, 2021
8,658
1,064
113
The Greek word translated "is come" is a Greek Aorist verb. The A reverses the meaning. (like our word "atypical:" the a changes the meaning.) It is a verb with NO tense.
You have contradicted yourself. You acknowledge that "is come" is a Greek Aorist verb. That IS a tense. So there IS a tense in Rev 19:7.

We cannot tell when from this verb because that information simply is not there. But we CAN tell when from where John wrote it: in chapter 19 and before Jesus leaves heaven for Armageddon.
Classic pretrib rapture places the wedding supper WHEN the raptured/resurrected get to heaven, NOT just before leaving heaven for earth at the Second Advent.

By the way, classical pretrib had many holes, and the marriage and supper as soon as the church arrives in heaven is just one more hole. (The rapture in 4:1 is another hole. The Week starting at the first seal is yet another.)
You forgot the biggest hole.

There are no verses showing Jesus taking any resurrected/raptured believers to heaven.

However many holes, they are still correct that the rapture will be PRE-70th week.
Only IF there is a verse that actually unambiguously says so.

But, there isn't.

in fact, 2 Thess 2:1-3 proves that the Second Coming and "gathering" (rapture) occur together.

Unless you can unpack that to show that I'm wrong.

Thanks.