Jesus comes immediately AFTER the tribulation, there is no Left Behind Secret Rapture=Stop causing fear.
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Apparently you have a big problem with the Word of God. There is only ONE resurrection, the real subject, not the "rapture".
The issue is that all believers will receive a resurrection body, an imperishable body.
Explain 1 Cor 15:23 - But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.
What is clear from this verse is that everyone who is saved will be resurrected "when He comes". I don't see any waves of resurrecgtion, or stages of resurrection. I just see that "those who belong to Him" will be resurrected "when He comes".
Help me out here, please.
Also, Luke 14:14 - and you will be blessed. Although they cannot repay you, you will be repaid at the resurrection of the righteous.”
Please help me understand how "the resurrection" really means "the series/waves/stages of resurrection".
Oh, and Acts 24:15 - and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.
I can only count 2 here; one for the saved, and one for the unsaved.
And since Rev 20:5, which is about saved people being resurrected, is actually called the FIRST resurrection, help me understand how there can be series/waves/stages of resurrections of the saved.
The issue is that all believers will receive a resurrection body, an imperishable body.
Explain 1 Cor 15:23 - But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.
What is clear from this verse is that everyone who is saved will be resurrected "when He comes". I don't see any waves of resurrecgtion, or stages of resurrection. I just see that "those who belong to Him" will be resurrected "when He comes".
Help me out here, please.
Also, Luke 14:14 - and you will be blessed. Although they cannot repay you, you will be repaid at the resurrection of the righteous.”
Please help me understand how "the resurrection" really means "the series/waves/stages of resurrection".
Oh, and Acts 24:15 - and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.
I can only count 2 here; one for the saved, and one for the unsaved.
And since Rev 20:5, which is about saved people being resurrected, is actually called the FIRST resurrection, help me understand how there can be series/waves/stages of resurrections of the saved.
Are you really so unaware of reality that you don't know that there is ALWAYS "night" on earth? All you have to do is look on the other side of earth where there is sunlight. Half of the earth is always in sunlight, and the other half is always in the dark.
I thought everyone knew that.
So, where is that "hurdle" to mention? Maybe you tripped over it as you were trying to pat your clever self on the back.
I thought everyone knew that.
So, where is that "hurdle" to mention? Maybe you tripped over it as you were trying to pat your clever self on the back.
So, let's examine what "has come" means. Does it mean the wedding supper occurs JUST BEFORE the trip to earth where Jesus ends the Trib? Because that's exactly what the rest of the chapter shows.
I thought pretribbers claim that the wedding supper occurs in heaven immediately after the rapture when the resurrected and raptured believers get there.
Can you prove your "irrefutable" claims?
I thought pretribbers claim that the wedding supper occurs in heaven immediately after the rapture when the resurrected and raptured believers get there.
Can you prove your "irrefutable" claims?
FreeGrace2 said:
Right. Omission of a pretrib rapture, which isn't taught in the Bible.
What I do know is that neither you nor any other pretribber has a verse that unambiguously states that Jesus takes resurrected/raptured believers to heaven. And that is a fact.
The ONLY way to prove your claim is to find such a verse.
And........you got 3. 2 Thess 2:1-3.
Lie.
I haven't seen ANY "extabiblical talking points" by any posttribber. Could you point me to any?
btw, how can any pretribber seriously claim they "own the debate" when none of you have a verse that unambiguously shows Jesus taking resurrected/raptured believers to heaven?
That's exactly what I am thinking. It is bizarre to claim something that the Bible says NOTHING about.
Kinda like your "nothingburger".
Same ingredients.
Right. Omission of a pretrib rapture, which isn't taught in the Bible.
What I do know is that neither you nor any other pretribber has a verse that unambiguously states that Jesus takes resurrected/raptured believers to heaven. And that is a fact.
The ONLY way to prove your claim is to find such a verse.
And........you got 3. 2 Thess 2:1-3.
Lie.
I haven't seen ANY "extabiblical talking points" by any posttribber. Could you point me to any?
btw, how can any pretribber seriously claim they "own the debate" when none of you have a verse that unambiguously shows Jesus taking resurrected/raptured believers to heaven?
That's exactly what I am thinking. It is bizarre to claim something that the Bible says NOTHING about.
Kinda like your "nothingburger".
Same ingredients.
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Wrong, he gave the signs, and then the LAST SIGN was the Sun and Moon turning dark. How did you guys even figure out that Salvation comes by Faith alone at his rate, I mean this isn't even that hard to grasp. We get the Matt. 4-31 SIGNS then Jesus tells the disciples a Parable comparing things....
Matt. 24:32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree(after THE SIGNS); When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: (So, we can know when the Summer is nearby the Figs ripeness, LIKEWISE, see that, this is comparing the these two things, so LIKEWISE, when ye see what ? THESE THINGS........What things? These SIGNS Jesus just told us about, its like 12 by my count, and the LAST SIGN is all-important because Jesus says when ye see ALL THESE THINGS/Signs.)
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
THIS GENERATION !! What Generation? The one that sees ALL THESE SIGNS, well What Signs? The SIGNS Jesus just told us about in Matt. 24:4-32, so what wraps up ALL THESE SIGNS? Well, what is the LAST SIGN?
The Last Sign
Matt. 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
This is not that hard brother, you guys want YOUR UNDERSTANDINGS to be correct more than you cherish the truth it seems, I don't get it tbh. This is an EASY UNDERSTANDING, it's not even a debatable point.
Jesus said THIS GENERATION referring to THE GENERATION that saw all of THESE SIGNS. Now go reread Matt. 24:4-31 and see the 12 or so signs for yourself.
Now, every other point you made after that first point becomes irrelevant.
Matt. 24:32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree(after THE SIGNS); When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: (So, we can know when the Summer is nearby the Figs ripeness, LIKEWISE, see that, this is comparing the these two things, so LIKEWISE, when ye see what ? THESE THINGS........What things? These SIGNS Jesus just told us about, its like 12 by my count, and the LAST SIGN is all-important because Jesus says when ye see ALL THESE THINGS/Signs.)
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
THIS GENERATION !! What Generation? The one that sees ALL THESE SIGNS, well What Signs? The SIGNS Jesus just told us about in Matt. 24:4-32, so what wraps up ALL THESE SIGNS? Well, what is the LAST SIGN?
The Last Sign
Matt. 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
This is not that hard brother, you guys want YOUR UNDERSTANDINGS to be correct more than you cherish the truth it seems, I don't get it tbh. This is an EASY UNDERSTANDING, it's not even a debatable point.
Jesus said THIS GENERATION referring to THE GENERATION that saw all of THESE SIGNS. Now go reread Matt. 24:4-31 and see the 12 or so signs for yourself.
Now, every other point you made after that first point becomes irrelevant.
John did not SEE the church leaving earth and heading towards heaven, but He did see the just raptured church IN HEAVEN and one of the saints spoke to him. You find this in Rev. chapter 7 as the great crowd too large to number. It is the church seen in heaven. HOW did they get there? Refer to John 14. Jesus came and got them. They were then with Him where He was: in heaven.
Oh, by the way, John saw that great crowd and wrote it in chapter 7, NOT IN CHAPTER 19, where Jesus comes to Armageddon.
Someone might wonder, WHY did God show John the just raptured church so early in the vision - before any part of the 70th week? The answer is simple, God showed John events in the same order in which things will happen. The truth is, the church is waiting at the 5th seal martyrs of the church age for that last martyr. Then the rapture will take place which will trigger the start of the Day of the Lord. So the rapture will be between the 5th and 6th seal. John seeing the church in heaven is in the perfect spot, right after the 6th seal start of the Day of the Lord.
How does this fit with Paul? Paul wrote in 1 Thes. 4 that the rapture would come just before wrath - exactly the way John shows it.
Oh, by the way, John saw that great crowd and wrote it in chapter 7, NOT IN CHAPTER 19, where Jesus comes to Armageddon.
Someone might wonder, WHY did God show John the just raptured church so early in the vision - before any part of the 70th week? The answer is simple, God showed John events in the same order in which things will happen. The truth is, the church is waiting at the 5th seal martyrs of the church age for that last martyr. Then the rapture will take place which will trigger the start of the Day of the Lord. So the rapture will be between the 5th and 6th seal. John seeing the church in heaven is in the perfect spot, right after the 6th seal start of the Day of the Lord.
How does this fit with Paul? Paul wrote in 1 Thes. 4 that the rapture would come just before wrath - exactly the way John shows it.
The Greek word translated "is come" is a Greek Aorist verb. The A reverses the meaning. (like our word "atypical:" the a changes the meaning.) It is a verb with NO tense. We cannot tell when from this verb because that information simply is not there. But we CAN tell when from where John wrote it: in chapter 19 and before Jesus leaves heaven for Armageddon.
By the way, classical pretrib had many holes, and the marriage and supper as soon as the church arrives in heaven is just one more hole. (The rapture in 4:1 is another hole. The Week starting at the first seal is yet another.)
However many holes, they are still correct that the rapture will be PRE-70th week.
By the way, classical pretrib had many holes, and the marriage and supper as soon as the church arrives in heaven is just one more hole. (The rapture in 4:1 is another hole. The Week starting at the first seal is yet another.)
However many holes, they are still correct that the rapture will be PRE-70th week.
No. That is a fallacy. A major fallacy. So are you willing to retract this false statement after you have seen the Scripture? Or will you double down on your fallacies?
For our conversation [citizenship] is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ [who is now in Heaven]: Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself. (Phil 3;20,21)
This passage is about the Resurrection/Rapture when the "vile" mortal, corruptible human bodies of the saints will be transformed into glorious, immortal, incorruptible bodies. And where will these bodies go after they are "changed"? Will they not go to where their citizenship is? And where is their citizenship other than in Heaven, as plainly stated?
So you owe us all a retraction as well as an apology for trying to lead people astray.
For our conversation [citizenship] is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ [who is now in Heaven]: Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself. (Phil 3;20,21)
This passage is about the Resurrection/Rapture when the "vile" mortal, corruptible human bodies of the saints will be transformed into glorious, immortal, incorruptible bodies. And where will these bodies go after they are "changed"? Will they not go to where their citizenship is? And where is their citizenship other than in Heaven, as plainly stated?
So you owe us all a retraction as well as an apology for trying to lead people astray.
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Fact is, NO biblical writer saw what pretribbers claim will occur.
Aren't you aware that by the time of the end times, and Tribulation, there will be FAR MORE NT saints in heaven than on earth. Add to that ALL the OT saints from Adam on. The number of living believers when Christ returns is just a fraction of all believers.
And Paul tells us unambiguously that ALL believers will be resurrected at once.
1 Cor 15:23 - But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.
This verse says that Jesus is the FIRST human to receive a resurrection body (firstfruits). After that, "when He comes", it will be "those who belong to Him".
So, 2 questions for you.
1. Explain what "when He comes" refers to.
2. Explain who are "those who belong to Him".
My asnwers are these:
1. "when He comes" refers to the Second Advent.
2. "those who belong to Him" means EVERY saved person from Adam on.
Prove me wrong, please.
Does not support anything close to a pretrib rapture. Again, from Christ's death and ascension, ALL NT believers go to heaven. So by the time we get to the Tribulation, those who are "alive and remain" will be just a fraction of an already 2,000+ yr history of dead saints.
OK, another question for you. Where do you get the idea that there is a "raptured church" in ch 7 anyway? Clarify.
Please quote an actual verse that I can look up. I find NO mention of any space trip to heaven in the Bible, including 1 Thess 4.
And John never showed "it". Not in his gospel, not in his epistles, and not in Revelation.
Aren't you aware that by the time of the end times, and Tribulation, there will be FAR MORE NT saints in heaven than on earth. Add to that ALL the OT saints from Adam on. The number of living believers when Christ returns is just a fraction of all believers.
And Paul tells us unambiguously that ALL believers will be resurrected at once.
1 Cor 15:23 - But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.
This verse says that Jesus is the FIRST human to receive a resurrection body (firstfruits). After that, "when He comes", it will be "those who belong to Him".
So, 2 questions for you.
1. Explain what "when He comes" refers to.
2. Explain who are "those who belong to Him".
My asnwers are these:
1. "when He comes" refers to the Second Advent.
2. "those who belong to Him" means EVERY saved person from Adam on.
Prove me wrong, please.
Does not support anything close to a pretrib rapture. Again, from Christ's death and ascension, ALL NT believers go to heaven. So by the time we get to the Tribulation, those who are "alive and remain" will be just a fraction of an already 2,000+ yr history of dead saints.
OK, another question for you. Where do you get the idea that there is a "raptured church" in ch 7 anyway? Clarify.
Please quote an actual verse that I can look up. I find NO mention of any space trip to heaven in the Bible, including 1 Thess 4.
And John never showed "it". Not in his gospel, not in his epistles, and not in Revelation.
You have contradicted yourself. You acknowledge that "is come" is a Greek Aorist verb. That IS a tense. So there IS a tense in Rev 19:7.
Classic pretrib rapture places the wedding supper WHEN the raptured/resurrected get to heaven, NOT just before leaving heaven for earth at the Second Advent.
You forgot the biggest hole.
There are no verses showing Jesus taking any resurrected/raptured believers to heaven.
Only IF there is a verse that actually unambiguously says so.
But, there isn't.
in fact, 2 Thess 2:1-3 proves that the Second Coming and "gathering" (rapture) occur together.
Unless you can unpack that to show that I'm wrong.
Thanks.
Classic pretrib rapture places the wedding supper WHEN the raptured/resurrected get to heaven, NOT just before leaving heaven for earth at the Second Advent.
You forgot the biggest hole.
There are no verses showing Jesus taking any resurrected/raptured believers to heaven.
Only IF there is a verse that actually unambiguously says so.
But, there isn't.
in fact, 2 Thess 2:1-3 proves that the Second Coming and "gathering" (rapture) occur together.
Unless you can unpack that to show that I'm wrong.
Thanks.