Jesus Came To Fulfill Not To Destroy

[Laura798]

Does anyone disregard the commandments of the New Testament?

What commands in the NT are you referring to?

Why do you think Jesus said, “A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another." (John 13:34) unless He was adding this to older commands?

Btw, all of the 10 commandments are in the New Testament, just not in list form.

 

[Jocund]

When you read about the law having a shadow of good things to come, and the law that was our school master to bring us unto Christ, it was not referring to God’s holy commandments but the animal sacrifice law.

If all you are excluding from your definition of the law are the animal sacrifices, that still leaves a wide range of commandments including the requirement to stone adulterers.

In the fulfilment interpretation of scripture, the sacrificial laws aren't abolished, they are fulfilled through Christ as the ultimate blood sacrifice.

It's important to note that the law isn't just talking about the commandments, it is talking about the teachings within a body of scripture as well (e.g. John 10:34). "Law" refers to a body of commandments or teachings.

There is righteousness and then there are covenant commandments which are intended as a means to righteousness. Different covenants may point to the same things. We see in the law of Christ some of the same requirements stated in the law of Moses (but with differences). Paul spoke of the concept that following the ordinances of the law of Moses was optional, but that the law of Christ is key to salvation.

Paul explained this in; (Hebrews 10: (v.1) For the law (what law, the law of animal sacrifice?)

I disagree with your interpretation that Hebrews 10:1 is talking specifically only on one part of the OT law. It does not fit the broader context of Paul's discussions.

When Jesus died on the cross that was the end of the first covenant, which consisted of [...] keeping of God’s commandments.

The Mosaic covenant wasn't the first covenant, but I get what you mean.

The conversation comes back to "what is meant by commandments?" and "what is meant by law?" or "what is meant by Royal law?" or "what is meant by the law of Christ?" in these passages. I disagree with your approach that Daniel's prophesied cessation of animal sacrifices represents the entirely of what Christ's sacrifice represents. What does "law of Christ" mean in your interpretation?

And his death also brought in the second covenant, which consist of the blood of Jesus and the keeping of [the] commandments. (v.18)

This comes back to the problem that in your interpretation that there are some OT commandments that need to be followed and some OT commandments that don't merely on some division that isn't explicit in scripture (while based on the fulfilment interpretation, OT law shouldn't be divided at all).

Now if you are being deceived into believing that once you are under God’s grace you no longer have to keep his commandments, all you have to look forward to is the day of judgement and the lake of fire (fiery indignation).

The message of the fulfilment interpretation is that the conditions of the law of Christ is required to be met in order to satisfy that fulfilment of the law of the OT. If one follows the commandments of the NT, one fulfils the commandments of the OT. The structure of the NT commandments is sometimes explicit, and sometimes it is intentionally vague with the concept that "your conscience will lead you to the right answer." I can't think of anyone that has been advocating that the commandments of the NT should be disregarded.

The fact that this key concept is misunderstood so often speaks volumes to how little attention is given to what Paul says in the NT. The logic you presented here is the same that some early Jewish Christians used to try to convince others that it was a requirement of all Christians to circumcise in accordance with the law. This is the reason we see Paul correcting different groups about circumcision. We also see the passage that talks about not judging others concerning OT commandments including provisions for how to observe sabbaths.

In order to circumvent a conflict in your interpretation, you have taken the approach that "only some OT law applies" in order to address the explicit lines about circumcision and dietary rules. And in many cases with many people that hold this position, the interpretation eventually slims down to "The Mosaic 10 commandments were not fulfilled by Christ and therefore still need to be observed" with no clear piece of scripture that states that this is the case.

"Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day." - Colossians 2:16 NIV

This passage is key to determining the validity of a "only some of the law was fulfilled by Christ" interpretation. If Sabbath in Col 2:16 is inclusive of the observation of a Saturday Sabbath, the interpretation is invalid. The argument that constantly comes up is that "sabbath only means holidays, not the Sabbath itself" but as we can see in translations such as NIV and others, the translators agreed that Sabbath in Col 2:16 does in fact reference the Saturday sabbath. In many cases they capitalise it in order to show that. By what justification are you declaring that "Sabbath" in Col 2:16 does not touch on the Saturday Sabbath?

For the sake of conversation, even if we conceded that Col 2:16 isn't in reference to the Sabbath, and even if somehow we came to the conclusion that the OT iteration of the Mosaic 10 commandments are still in play. Which parsing of the Mosaic 10 are we talking about (some versions divide them differently), and to what extent do the supporting commandments apply? Should we be executing people that work on the Sabbath, as the OT commands? The execution of non-observers is as much an ordinance concerning the Mosaic ten as is the strict observation of the Saturday rest. Without the ordinances, "Remember the Sabbath and keep it holy" can be interpreted vastly differently than how it was interpreted in the OT.

"‘Observe the Sabbath, because it is holy to you. Anyone who desecrates it is to be put to death; those who do any work on that day must be cut off from their people. For six days work is to be done, but the seventh day is a day of sabbath rest, holy to the Lord. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day is to be put to death." - Exodus 31:14-15 NIV

Which ordinances are we to be following concerning the Sabbath?

 

[justbyfaith]

Exactly. "Not under the law" refers to the "curse of the law" and also the "Mosaic Law" of ceremonies and sacrifices. Only a fool will argue "not under the law" means Christians can break the law with impunity, claiming that "God doesn't want us to break it, but He won't bar us from entering heaven if we break it".

These spiritually growth-stunted fools do not understand that law-keeping/law-breaking is merely the outward evidence of whether or not there is an inward enthronement of Jesus on the heart.

The reality is that we have been forgiven of every sin that we ever have or ever will commit, if we are in Christ;

And therefore our relationship to the law has changed. We are not under it (Romans 6:14), we are dead to it (Romans 7:4, Galatians 2:19), and we are delivered from it (Romans 7:6). As concerning condemnation, it is as if there is no law; for there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

Now those who are in Christ Jesus are defined as those who walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit. The love of the Lord has been shed abroad in our hearts (Romans 5:5) so that the righteousness of the law is fulfilled in us (Romans 13:8-10, 1 John 5:3, 2 John 1:6; Romans 8:4).

So, it is the inclination of those who are forgiven, that we will be obedient.

However, in the case that we should "mess up" or "blow it", we stand forgiven even in the very moments that we sin. For He justifieth the ungodly (Romans 4:5).

This means that we have an unshakable identity in Christ....that we are righteous, because of our faith...even when we blow it (Romans 4:5).

Now that you have this identity, the exhortation, therefore, is, go and live like it (1 John 3:7, Romans 5:19, Matthew 5:6).

Now, therefore, it is true that if someone is in Christ, hyothetically, they can break the law with impunity and they still stand forgiven. Where sin abounds, grace superabounds.

However, if anyone is in Christ, it is their inclination to be obedient. How then are they going to act presumptuously in the manner that is being spoken of? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we who have died to sin live any longer in it?

 

[justbyfaith]

That's a curious statement. How do you arrive at a conclusion that animal sacrifices are still "in effect"? Do you mean they are still required of God? If so, by whom?

The law has not been abolished according to Matthew 5:17-20. However, it has been fulfilled by Christ. The animal sacrifices in the Old Testament have not been abolished but they have been fulfilled in that Christ is the perfect sacrifice and He stands as the perfect fulfillment of what is represented by the animal sacrifices. His death on the Cross is all that is needed any more; as those animal sacrifices pointed to His death on the Cross and they are fulfilled in that.

 

[BroTan]

If all you are excluding from your definition of the law are the animal sacrifices, that still leaves a wide range of commandments including the requirement to stone adulterers.

In the fulfilment interpretation of scripture, the sacrificial laws aren't abolished, they are fulfilled through Christ as the ultimate blood sacrifice.

It's important to note that the law isn't just talking about the commandments, it is talking about the teachings within a body of scripture as well (e.g. John 10:34). "Law" refers to a body of commandments or teachings.

There is righteousness and then there are covenant commandments which are intended as a means to righteousness. Different covenants may point to the same things. We see in the law of Christ some of the same requirements stated in the law of Moses (but with differences). Paul spoke of the concept that following the ordinances of the law of Moses was optional, but that the law of Christ is key to salvation.




I disagree with your interpretation that Hebrews 10:1 is talking specifically only on one part of the OT law. It does not fit the broader context of Paul's discussions.



The Mosaic covenant wasn't the first covenant, but I get what you mean.

The conversation comes back to "what is meant by commandments?" and "what is meant by law?" or "what is meant by Royal law?" or "what is meant by the law of Christ?" in these passages. I disagree with your approach that Daniel's prophesied cessation of animal sacrifices represents the entirely of what Christ's sacrifice represents. What does "law of Christ" mean in your interpretation?



This comes back to the problem that in your interpretation that there are some OT commandments that need to be followed and some OT commandments that don't merely on some division that isn't explicit in scripture (while based on the fulfilment interpretation, OT law shouldn't be divided at all).



The message of the fulfilment interpretation is that the conditions of the law of Christ is required to be met in order to satisfy that fulfilment of the law of the OT. If one follows the commandments of the NT, one fulfils the commandments of the OT. The structure of the NT commandments is sometimes explicit, and sometimes it is intentionally vague with the concept that "your conscience will lead you to the right answer." I can't think of anyone that has been advocating that the commandments of the NT should be disregarded.

The fact that this key concept is misunderstood so often speaks volumes to how little attention is given to what Paul says in the NT. The logic you presented here is the same that some early Jewish Christians used to try to convince others that it was a requirement of all Christians to circumcise in accordance with the law. This is the reason we see Paul correcting different groups about circumcision. We also see the passage that talks about not judging others concerning OT commandments including provisions for how to observe sabbaths.

In order to circumvent a conflict in your interpretation, you have taken the approach that "only some OT law applies" in order to address the explicit lines about circumcision and dietary rules. And in many cases with many people that hold this position, the interpretation eventually slims down to "The Mosaic 10 commandments were not fulfilled by Christ and therefore still need to be observed" with no clear piece of scripture that states that this is the case.

"Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day." - Colossians 2:16 NIV

This passage is key to determining the validity of a "only some of the law was fulfilled by Christ" interpretation. If Sabbath in Col 2:16 is inclusive of the observation of a Saturday Sabbath, the interpretation is invalid. The argument that constantly comes up is that "sabbath only means holidays, not the Sabbath itself" but as we can see in translations such as NIV and others, the translators agreed that Sabbath in Col 2:16 does in fact reference the Saturday sabbath. In many cases they capitalise it in order to show that. By what justification are you declaring that "Sabbath" in Col 2:16 does not touch on the Saturday Sabbath?

For the sake of conversation, even if we conceded that Col 2:16 isn't in reference to the Sabbath, and even if somehow we came to the conclusion that the OT iteration of the Mosaic 10 commandments are still in play. Which parsing of the Mosaic 10 are we talking about (some versions divide them differently), and to what extent do the supporting commandments apply? Should we be executing people that work on the Sabbath, as the OT commands? The execution of non-observers is as much an ordinance concerning the Mosaic ten as is the strict observation of the Saturday rest. Without the ordinances, "Remember the Sabbath and keep it holy" can be interpreted vastly differently than how it was interpreted in the OT.

"‘Observe the Sabbath, because it is holy to you. Anyone who desecrates it is to be put to death; those who do any work on that day must be cut off from their people. For six days work is to be done, but the seventh day is a day of sabbath rest, holy to the Lord. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day is to be put to death." - Exodus 31:14-15 NIV

Which ordinances are we to be following concerning the Sabbath?

In the Leviticus, 23rd Chapter the sabbath day and the High Holy Days which begin I believe on the new moon. Are the feast of the Lord's. These days are to be observe in their season. In Colossians 2:16-17, "Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days. Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ. These feast days are the plans of God, they represent the future, with example from the past. All Holy Days are not to eat or drink, such as the atonement, but still to be observe. So this is actually what a person would say to someone who do not keep these feast day of the Lord, if they were judging them on those High and Holy Sabbath days, they were keeping. They would quoted Colossians 2: 16-17. So if you keep the first day of the week, Sunday, then it makes no sense to use this verse. You cannot worship other days that’s not written in the Bible to do, and then use the Bible to justify it. So if you keep another day thats not written in the Bible, then you are doing something on your own, thus it would really be contradictorily.

Paul says in Galatian 4: 7 Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ. 8 Howbeit then, when ye knew not God, ye did service unto them which by nature are no gods.

Right like pagan some Holidays, didn't Paul say 1 Corinthians 10:20 But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils.

 

[BroTan]

Greetings GroTan,

Well then, you and the rest of us have already failed at the Law, which would mean that one tittle has already passed by human beings. The word of God also says the following:

"Brothers, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for the Israelites is for their salvation. For I testify about them that they are zealous for God, but not on the basis of knowledge. Because they were ignorant of God’s righteousness and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God’s righteousness. For Christ is the end of the law, to bring righteousness to everyone who believes.

"In the passage above He says, “Sacrifices and offerings, burnt offerings and sin offerings You did not desire, nor did You delight in them” (although they are offered according to the law). Then He adds, “Here I am, I have come to do Your will.” He takes away the first (covenant) to establish the second. And by that will, we have been sanctified through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

We all fail at the fulfilling the Law, but Jesus fulfilled it perfectly on our behalf. And those who believe have been credited with the righteousness of Christ, including the fulfillment of the Law.

Well...it's looks like you quote Paul talking about the animal sacrificial law, not the Royal law (Commandments). Let's take a look at what happen when that law ended that you quoted from Paul. Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost. And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; (Matthew 27:50,51)

Most people read right through this not realizing that veil rent from top to bottom. Now let's begin by taking a look at both of the laws and how they worked together. We will see there were two laws given to Moses, they were the commandments and the sacrificial law. Watch how they worked together. And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, If a soul shall sin through ignorance against any of the commandments of the LORD concerning things which ought not to be done, and shall do against any of them: (Leviticus 4:1-2) The law in the scriptures above is the commandments.

Notice something else very important in these two scriptures. It states, "if a soul shall sin through ignorance." Notice that the scripture did not says on purpose. Why? There is no sacrifice for a sin that is committed willfully. Let's find out what was to be done if a person committed a sin against the Lord unintentionally. Let's continue...3 If the priest that is anointed do sin according to the sin of the people; then let him bring for his sin, which he hath sinned, a young bullock without blemish unto the LORD for a sin offering. 4 And he shall bring the bullock unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation before the LORD; and shall lay his hand upon the bullock's head, and kill the bullock before the LORD. 5 And the priest that is anointed shall take of the bullock's blood, and bring it to the tabernacle of the congregation: 6 and the priest shall dip his finger in the blood, and sprinkle of the blood seven times before the LORD, before the vail of the sanctuary.

Let’s go to Galatians 3: 21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.

The law here is the animal sacrificial law, it was a temporary measure to slow man down from sinning against God’s Commandments.

Let’s go to Hebrews 10: 1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect. 4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins. 5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, But a body hast thou prepared me: 6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure. 7 Then said I, Lo, I come (In the volume of the book it is written of me,) To do thy will, O God. 8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;

9 then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. 10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. 11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: 12 but this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; 16 This is the covenant that I will make with them After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, And in their minds will I write them; 17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. 18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin. Draw Near in Faith 19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, 20 by a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh; 21 and having an high priest over the house of God;

When Jesus died on the cross that was the end of the first covenant, which consisted of the blood of animals and the keeping of God’s commandments. And his death also brought in the second covenant, which consist of the blood of Jesus and the keeping of God’s commandments

Let’s go to Proverbs 19: 16 He that keepeth the commandment keepeth his own soul; But he that despiseth his ways shall die.

 

[justbyfaith]

So if you keep the first day of the week, Sunday, then it makes no sense to use this verse.

It makes sense to use this verse if someone is judging you for not worshipping on Saturday.

 

[justbyfaith]

Well...it's looks like you quote Paul talking about the animal sacrificial law, not the Royal law (Commandments). Let's take a look at what happen when that law ended that you quoted from Paul. Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost. And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; (Matthew 27:50,51)

Most people read right through this not realizing that veil rent from top to bottom. Now let's begin by taking a look at both of the laws and how they worked together. We will see there were two laws given to Moses, they were the commandments and the sacrificial law. Watch how they worked together. And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, If a soul shall sin through ignorance against any of the commandments of the LORD concerning things which ought not to be done, and shall do against any of them: (Leviticus 4:1-2) The law in the scriptures above is the commandments.

Notice something else very important in these two scriptures. It states, "if a soul shall sin through ignorance." Notice that the scripture did not says on purpose. Why? There is no sacrifice for a sin that is committed willfully. Let's find out what was to be done if a person committed a sin against the Lord unintentionally. Let's continue...3 If the priest that is anointed do sin according to the sin of the people; then let him bring for his sin, which he hath sinned, a young bullock without blemish unto the LORD for a sin offering. 4 And he shall bring the bullock unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation before the LORD; and shall lay his hand upon the bullock's head, and kill the bullock before the LORD. 5 And the priest that is anointed shall take of the bullock's blood, and bring it to the tabernacle of the congregation: 6 and the priest shall dip his finger in the blood, and sprinkle of the blood seven times before the LORD, before the vail of the sanctuary.

Let’s go to Galatians 3: 21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.

The law here is the animal sacrificial law, it was a temporary measure to slow man down from sinning against God’s Commandments.

Let’s go to Hebrews 10: 1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect. 4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins. 5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, But a body hast thou prepared me: 6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure. 7 Then said I, Lo, I come (In the volume of the book it is written of me,) To do thy will, O God. 8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;

9 then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. 10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. 11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: 12 but this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; 16 This is the covenant that I will make with them After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, And in their minds will I write them; 17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. 18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin. Draw Near in Faith 19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, 20 by a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh; 21 and having an high priest over the house of God;

When Jesus died on the cross that was the end of the first covenant, which consisted of the blood of animals and the keeping of God’s commandments. And his death also brought in the second covenant, which consist of the blood of Jesus and the keeping of God’s commandments

Let’s go to Proverbs 19: 16 He that keepeth the commandment keepeth his own soul; But he that despiseth his ways shall die.

When Paul speaks of "the law" in holy scripture, he is speaking of every moral tenet in the Old and New Testaments.

For it is through these that we have the knowledge of sin (Romans 3:20).

 

[BroTan]

That is merely one side of the coin.

On the other side of the coin, we have Paul teaching us that we are not under the law (Romans 6:14), are dead to the law (Romans 7:4, Galatians 2:19), and are delivered from the law (Romans 7:6) as concerning condemnation.

As concerning obedience, on the other hand, we are under the law to Christ (1 Corinthians 9:21);

The law is written on the heart and mind of the New Covenant believer (Hebrews 8:8-10, Hebrews 10:16, Romans 8:7, Romans 8:4, 1 John 5:3, 2 John 1:6, Romans 13:8-10; Romans 5:5; 1 John 2:3-6).

If the law is written in your heart and mind them you would know that Paul is talking the animal sacrificial laws and the Royal law (Commandments). Also you would be keeping the Sabbath day on the seventh day of the week (Saturday).

Let’s go to Jeremiah 7: 21 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Put your burnt offerings unto your sacrifices, and eat flesh. 22 For I spake not unto your fathers, nor commanded them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices: 23 but this thing commanded I them, saying, Obey my voice, and I will be your God, and ye shall be my people: and walk ye in all the ways that I have commanded you, that it may be well unto you. 24 But they hearkened not, nor inclined their ear, but walked in the counsels and in the imagination of their evil heart, and went backward, and not forward.

Understand what Paul saying here in Galatians 3: 21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.

The law here is the animal sacrificial law, it was a temporary measure to slow man down from sinning against God’s Commandments.

Pay Attention to Paul is saying here in Romans 7: What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, THOU SHALT NOT COVET.

Paul asked a question, is the law sin? He said God forbid, he said the only way that he knew what sin was, was by the law.

8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead. 9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. 10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. 11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me. 12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

 

[BroTan]

When Paul speaks of "the law" in holy scripture, he is speaking of every moral tenet in the Old and New Testaments.

For it is through these that we have the knowledge of sin (Romans 3:20).

Paul told you to; (2Tim. 2:15) Study to shew thyself approved unto God, (not man) a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. You must rightfully divide the word of God, you must find out where every thing fits because fit it does.

(1John 2:3-4) (v.3) And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. (v.4) he that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. This includes the
The Sabbath day on the seventh day of the week,

 

[BroTan]

It makes sense to use this verse if someone is judging you for not worshipping on Saturday.

The heart of him that hath understanding seeketh knowledge: but the mouth of fools feedeth on foolishness. (Proverbs 15:14)

 

[justbyfaith]

Understand what Paul saying here in Galatians 3: 21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.

The law here is the animal sacrificial law,

Paul is here saying that if it were possible for a man to keep the law in the way of commandments given, that righteousness should have been by the law.

But, if you look at verse 22, I believe that you will see that he is saying that righteousness could not be by the law for that all are under sin according to holy scripture. It is saying that, if we could keep the law, there would have been a law given through which we might be imparted life. But because we cannot keep it (Galatians 6:13), there is no law that has ever been given that can impart life.

This includes "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all of thy heart, mind, soul, and strength" and "Love thy neighbor as thyself".

We cannot obtain life by keeping these commandments, or any of the ten.

Rather, we obtain life through faith in Christ, who gives us the Holy Spirit through faith (Galatians 3:14) and the love of the Lord is shed abroad in our hearts through the Holy Ghost (Romans 5:5).

Thus we become able to be obedient to the commandments that I spoke to you of, above.

But we did not obtain life through keeping the commandment; keeping the commandment was only the result of obtaining life.

We obtained life through faith in Jesus Christ;

We cannot obtain life through the keeping of any commandment, from the two greatest commandments spoken of by Jesus to #1-#10 of the ten commandments written on stone and given to Moses.

 

[justbyfaith]

Paul told you to; (2Tim. 2:15) Study to shew thyself approved unto God, (not man) a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. You must rightfully divide the word of God, you must find out where every thing fits because fit it does.

(1John 2:3-4) (v.3) And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. (v.4) he that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. This includes the
The Sabbath day on the seventh day of the week,

Of course it is not saying that you must make Saturday your day of worship and hearing the word.

The sabbath is a day of rest.

 

[justbyfaith]

The heart of him that hath understanding seeketh knowledge: but the mouth of fools feedeth on foolishness. (Proverbs 15:14)

Pro 14:7, Go from the presence of a foolish man, when thou perceivest not in him the lips of knowledge.

 

[Grandpa]

2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.​

2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: show me thy faith without thy works, and I will show thee my faith by my works. ​

Antinomianists have been deceived by Satan into believing that they may by dead faith obtain that which can only be obtained by living faith: eternal life.

​

What's the difference between your dead faith and living faith?

Does the dead faith work at the Ministry of Death, written and engraven on stones?

What then does the living faith work at? Wouldn't make a whole lot of sense for the LIVING FAITH to work at the MINISTRY OF DEATH, otherwise dead faith = living faith.

 

[Grandpa]

It's not wise to refer to Biblical teaching as "silly philosophy". I would suggest you ask God to deliver you from your carnal thinking and open your heart to Biblical understanding. Ask God to put love for Him and others in your heart each day, and your rebellion against the Ten Commandments will be turned into delight.

"I delight to do Thy will, O my God; yea, Thy law is within my heart." --- Psalms 40:8 KJV​

"...His commandments are not grievous." --- 1 John 5:3 KJV​

"For I delight in the law of God after the inward man." --- Romans 7:22 KJV​

I don't have rebellion to the 10 commandments.

The 10 commandments did what they are supposed to do in me.

They led me to Christ.

 

[Grandpa]

Grandpa,

You seem to not understand what is being said here about the importance of obedience to Christ's commands. No one that I can see believes in salvation by works [of the Law] but we are still called to obey the moral law--that is the 10 Commandments along with Christ's teachings. In fact He added a new one, "Love one another." It's obvious since you don't believe Christ's own words when He says we are to obey, as your comments are not what one would consider loving. We are able to obey by the miracle working power of the Holy Spirit--and as we live a life of continual fellowship and surrender to His will--we do not believe it is of our own will power--but we still have to 'work out our Salvatin with fear and trembling' as the good book says.

What do you make of these verses?

"“If you love me, you will keep my commandments."--John 14:15

" 2By this we know that we love the children of God: when we love God and keep His commandments. 3For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome,…"--1 John 2:3

""7 During the days of Jesus’ life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with fervent cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission. 8 Son though he was, he learned obedience from what he suffered 9 and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him 10 and was designated by God to be high priest in the order of Melchizedek."--Hebrews 5:7-10"

John 14:15-18
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.


The Lord here is saying to keep HIS commandments, NOT THE 10 commandments.

Such as these;
Matthew 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
Matthew 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

Same thing in 1 John 2. But I think you meant 1 John 5.

1 John 5 is talking about the Victory that we have in Christ. It is not talking about being entangled again in the Yoke of Bondage.

1 John 5:4-5
4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?



The Lord Jesus Christ has become the High Priest for ALL who obey Him. So, Why haven't you?

Matthew 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

How come you have not received Rest? How come you don't understand His Word?

 

[Grandpa]

You love to cite Paul's verses where he condemns lawkeeping, but there are plenty of verses where he promotes it. You seem altogether disinterested in Scriptural harmony, preferring to cling to the former and disregard the latter, and while we are not to judge another's motives, I think the reason you do so is pretty evident.

Do you think Paul is schizophrenic?
Do you think he lacks self awareness enough to see he's speaking out of both sides of his mouth?
Do you think he suffers from cognitive dissonance?

Look, if he's not crazy, oblivious, or confused, the only way to harmonize it all is to understand that his condemnation of it has to do with attempting to keep the law as a means of obtaining salvation.

No. That is your WEAK construct you have devised. Paul NEVER states that its ok to work at the Law as long as you are not trying to obtain Salvation by it.

The condemnation is working at the Law in your own understanding and strength.

Like the Pharisees before you. How do you not see that you are EXACTLY like them?


"We are keeping the 10 commandments. We are Gods people" That is the deceptive thought that Pharisees think. The problem is that they DON'T keep the 10 commandments. They only IMAGINE that they do.

If you were to read Matthew 5 and DO what the Lord SAYS to do, you will find you CAN'T keep ANY of the Commandments. This will cause you to make a decision. Be condemned of God forever and die. OR come to Christ and receive Righteousness and Rest.


Working at the 10 commandments gets you nothing, except Condemnation and Death. Coming to Christ gets you Righteousness and Life.

You can't have both. One or the other. Work. Or Rest.




What do you think would happen if "christians" started to sacrifice animals because they wanted to show their "obedience" to the law?

It would actually show their LACK of Faith in Christ. Right?

That's really easy to see. How is it you don't see the same thing with the 10 commandments? Who has bewitched you?
Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit are you made perfect by your work at the Law?

 

[Grandpa]

If the law is written in your heart and mind them you would know that Paul is talking the animal sacrificial laws and the Royal law (Commandments). Also you would be keeping the Sabbath day on the seventh day of the week (Saturday).

Let’s go to Jeremiah 7: 21 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Put your burnt offerings unto your sacrifices, and eat flesh. 22 For I spake not unto your fathers, nor commanded them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices: 23 but this thing commanded I them, saying, Obey my voice, and I will be your God, and ye shall be my people: and walk ye in all the ways that I have commanded you, that it may be well unto you. 24 But they hearkened not, nor inclined their ear, but walked in the counsels and in the imagination of their evil heart, and went backward, and not forward.

Understand what Paul saying here in Galatians 3: 21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.

The law here is the animal sacrificial law, it was a temporary measure to slow man down from sinning against God’s Commandments.

Pay Attention to Paul is saying here in Romans 7: What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, THOU SHALT NOT COVET.

Paul asked a question, is the law sin? He said God forbid, he said the only way that he knew what sin was, was by the law.

8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead. 9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. 10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. 11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me. 12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

2 Corinthians 3:5-9
5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;

6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:

8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?

9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.



There is no way to take the WHOLE law and dissect it into parts and say The Lord delivered us from this part but not that.
Otherwise you make the Lord Jesus AND Paul liars.

Matthew 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.


If you are not under ALL the Laws of Moses then HOW can you place yourself OR ANYONE ELSE under ANY of them?

The Lord didn't say He would fulfill SOME of the Law.

If you are under ANY of the Laws of Moses then you are under ALL the Laws of Moses.

James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

 

[Phoneman-777]

The reality is that we have been forgiven of every sin that we ever have or ever will commit, if we are in Christ;

And therefore our relationship to the law has changed. We are not under it (Romans 6:14), we are dead to it (Romans 7:4, Galatians 2:19), and we are delivered from it (Romans 7:6). As concerning condemnation, it is as if there is no law; for there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

Now those who are in Christ Jesus are defined as those who walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit. The love of the Lord has been shed abroad in our hearts (Romans 5:5) so that the righteousness of the law is fulfilled in us (Romans 13:8-10, 1 John 5:3, 2 John 1:6; Romans 8:4).

So, it is the inclination of those who are forgiven, that we will be obedient.

However, in the case that we should "mess up" or "blow it", we stand forgiven even in the very moments that we sin. For He justifieth the ungodly (Romans 4:5).

This means that we have an unshakable identity in Christ....that we are righteous, because of our faith...even when we blow it (Romans 4:5).

Now that you have this identity, the exhortation, therefore, is, go and live like it (1 John 3:7, Romans 5:19, Matthew 5:6).

Now, therefore, it is true that if someone is in Christ, hyothetically, they can break the law with impunity and they still stand forgiven. Where sin abounds, grace superabounds.

However, if anyone is in Christ, it is their inclination to be obedient. How then are they going to act presumptuously in the manner that is being spoken of? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we who have died to sin live any longer in it?

Agreed. In the Great Controversy, there is no confusion as to who the lost are and is why the Bible doesn't waste time needlessly going into detail about their appearance and beliefs -- they are readily seen for who they are.

The problem lies with the church, where the sincere child of God must co-exist with those who are overcome by the enemy: the "wheat and the tares". On this, the Bible is abundantly clear that there is mercy for the Just Man who falls 7 times but rises up again by the power of Jesus, but the Presumptuous Man who deliberately climbs down into the filth and swats away the uplifting hand of Jesus will die in his iniquity.