How the Pre-Trib Rapture Became Popular in the Modern Church
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What I have noticed with you guys is that there is always the apostasy thing thrown at us, or we are not in the will of God, or salvation is doubted, or we have separated ourselves from the truth of scripture, etc, etc.
I seems if we don't agree with you we are in trouble with God! Is that the way you see it from your side?
I seems if we don't agree with you we are in trouble with God! Is that the way you see it from your side?
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That's your own fault. You guys refuse to accept any scholarly, expert sources for the definition of Apostasia. It means Apostasy. It does not mean rapture. By rejecting the real definition for a false one, you are saying you want to take part in the Apostasy. That should terrify you but I know it doesn't.
It's like someone saying, "I want to murder my wife." But they don't like what murder means so they change it to "marry" now they can Marry/Murder their wife!
It's like someone saying, "I want to murder my wife." But they don't like what murder means so they change it to "marry" now they can Marry/Murder their wife!
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Please see 4185 -- David's and 4186--EWQ
There's no denying what those say--if you do, would be as if you were at the scene of a crime and you saw a gangster hold the gun to the victim's head, pull the trigger and kill him--then the police come and you say "Yes, I was here, but I didn't see anything."
Now the onus is on you to give verses (not out of context) both in Revelation and elsewhere that clearly state there will be a pre-trib rapture.
There's no denying what those say--if you do, would be as if you were at the scene of a crime and you saw a gangster hold the gun to the victim's head, pull the trigger and kill him--then the police come and you say "Yes, I was here, but I didn't see anything."
Now the onus is on you to give verses (not out of context) both in Revelation and elsewhere that clearly state there will be a pre-trib rapture.
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We are using dictionaries and concordances not just some guy's opinion. Biblical Greek is a fixed language which means definitions cannot change with time or culture. Denying the offcial meaning means you cannot be taken seriously on this topic. The meaning of Apostasia is fixed for all time and this is what it means:
Strong's definition G646
apostasia
ap-os-tas-ee'-ah
Feminine of the same as G647; defection from truth (properly the state), (“apostasy”) : - falling away, forsake.
Total KJV occurrences: 2
Thayer Definition:
G646 apostasia
1) a falling away, defection, apostasy
Part of Speech: noun feminine
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: feminine of the same as G647
Citing in TDNT: 1:513, 88
Total KJV occurrences: 2
Abbott-Smith Manual Greek Lexicon of the New Testament
Apostasia
defection, apostasy, revolt; in late Gk. (MM, Exp., viii; Lft., Notes, 111; Cremer, 308) for cl. ?p?stas?? , freq. in sense of political revolt, in LXX (e.g. Joshua 22:22, 2 Chronicles 29:19, Jeremiah 2:19) and NT always of religious apostasy: Ac21:21, II Th 2:3.
Liddell and Scott:
A defection, revolt, v.l. in D.H.7.1, J.Vit.10, Plu.Galb.1; esp. in religious sense, rebellion against God, apostasy, LXX Jo.22.22, 2 Ep.Th.2.3 .
Winer's Grammar:
Apostasia, a falling away, defection, apostasy; in the Bible namely, from the true religion: Acts 21:21; 2 Thessalonians 2:3 ; ((Joshua 22:22; 2 Chronicles 29:19; 2 Chronicles 33:19); Jeremiah 2:19; Jeremiah 36
29) 32 Complutensian; 1 Macc. 2:15). The earlier Greeks say Apostasis; see Lob. ad Phryn., p. 528; (Winer's Grammar, 24). The only other use of this word in the bible was people departing from the teachings of Moses which is an Apostasy from his teachings. Neither use has anything to do with simply going somewhere physically.
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1 Thessalonians
4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
4:17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
4:17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
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Yes, they do. And I had supplied Winer's "page 24" quoted in past posts showing this point (point being, it's the same word as "apostasia"... and the Liddell and Scott quote from their 1871 edition showing that "apostasis" has the definition "departure," which is the point some of us are making regarding what 2Th2:3 is conveying [regarding the 3x-repeated "SEQUENCE" issue, presented in this context])
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https://coercioncode.com/2020/09/02...yper-pre-tribulation-now-the-latest-apostasy/
"Is there any lexical evidence that would prove that apostasia can carry the meaning of “physical departing,” let alone in 2 Thessalonians 2:3?
Word studies always begin with proximity and works its way outward:
Author -> NT -> Septuagint -> Koine (Pseudepigrapha Josephus, Philo) -> Classical Greek -> Patristic
New Testament:
The term is used only one other time in the New Testament, which means a religious departure:
and they have been told about you, that you are teaching all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake [religious apostasy] Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children nor to walk according to the customs. –Acts 21:21
Septuagint:
Four Times: Joshua 22:22; 2 Chronicles 29:19; 1 Maccabees 2:15; Jeremiah 2:19.
Every time it means apostasy or rebellion in a religious or political sense—never used as a spatial or physical sense.
Koine Greek Literature:
In Moulton and Milligan’s, The Vocabulary of the Greek Testament Illustrated from the Papyri and Other Non-Literary Sources, it is demonstrated that this term is only used in the political or religious defection sense—again, never used in a spatial departure sense (pp. 68–9).
Further, even pretribulationist scholar Paul Feinberg admits, “If one searches for the uses of the noun “apostasy” in the 355 occurrences over the 300-year period between the second century B.C. and the first century A.D., one will not find a single instance where this word refers to a physical departure.” "
"Is there any lexical evidence that would prove that apostasia can carry the meaning of “physical departing,” let alone in 2 Thessalonians 2:3?
Word studies always begin with proximity and works its way outward:
Author -> NT -> Septuagint -> Koine (Pseudepigrapha Josephus, Philo) -> Classical Greek -> Patristic
New Testament:
The term is used only one other time in the New Testament, which means a religious departure:
and they have been told about you, that you are teaching all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake [religious apostasy] Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children nor to walk according to the customs. –Acts 21:21
Septuagint:
Four Times: Joshua 22:22; 2 Chronicles 29:19; 1 Maccabees 2:15; Jeremiah 2:19.
Every time it means apostasy or rebellion in a religious or political sense—never used as a spatial or physical sense.
Koine Greek Literature:
In Moulton and Milligan’s, The Vocabulary of the Greek Testament Illustrated from the Papyri and Other Non-Literary Sources, it is demonstrated that this term is only used in the political or religious defection sense—again, never used in a spatial departure sense (pp. 68–9).
Further, even pretribulationist scholar Paul Feinberg admits, “If one searches for the uses of the noun “apostasy” in the 355 occurrences over the 300-year period between the second century B.C. and the first century A.D., one will not find a single instance where this word refers to a physical departure.” "
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It's not the same word. It's not used in bible and it doesn't mean a physical departure.
In red is part of Winers you ALWAYS leave out:
Winer's Grammar:
Apostasia, a falling away, defection, apostasy; in the Bible namely, from the true religion: Acts 21:21; 2 Thessalonians 2:3 ; ((Joshua 22:22; 2 Chronicles 29:19; 2 Chronicles 33:19); Jeremiah 2:19; Jeremiah 3629) 32 Complutensian; 1 Macc. 2:15). The earlier Greeks say Apostasis; see Lob. ad Phryn., p. 528; (Winer's Grammar, 24).
In red is part of Winers you ALWAYS leave out:
Winer's Grammar:
Apostasia, a falling away, defection, apostasy; in the Bible namely, from the true religion: Acts 21:21; 2 Thessalonians 2:3 ; ((Joshua 22:22; 2 Chronicles 29:19; 2 Chronicles 33:19); Jeremiah 2:19; Jeremiah 36
29) 32 Complutensian; 1 Macc. 2:15). The earlier Greeks say Apostasis; see Lob. ad Phryn., p. 528; (Winer's Grammar, 24).I don't see it that way. But I do feel you ought to pray about it--I did several years ago when I found something 'off' with a church I was attending. I prayed 'Father show me more of the mystery of the gospel' and He did-it was a domino effect. I continue to discover numerous false doctrines-in every single church--which shouldn't surprise me as the had already infiltrated the first century church.
You see for those who know believers will go thru the tribulation we will be prepared--some of us may die, but some of us will be able to escape because we see the signs Christ warned us about--if not escape then to pray for courage to face whatever comes our way. I personally believe we must began preparing now.
Furthermore we will not be fooled by a false Messiah, we will know who the anti-christ is when he is revealed and we will refuse the mark of the beast--however those that believe in a pre-trib rapture will be more easily deceived because of their belief in being rescued out of the tribulation.--THIS is what they will be looking for and they will not be ready.
You see for those who know believers will go thru the tribulation we will be prepared--some of us may die, but some of us will be able to escape because we see the signs Christ warned us about--if not escape then to pray for courage to face whatever comes our way. I personally believe we must began preparing now.
Furthermore we will not be fooled by a false Messiah, we will know who the anti-christ is when he is revealed and we will refuse the mark of the beast--however those that believe in a pre-trib rapture will be more easily deceived because of their belief in being rescued out of the tribulation.--THIS is what they will be looking for and they will not be ready.
Dear Laura! In David's post #4185, this is not the Church saints as David suggests!
Anyone who is saved is a saint, these are the ones who are left on earth after the rapture and were saved.
David is using the fact that they are called "saints" to say they are the Church saints, that is not what the scripture says, it's total conjecture.
What I have said, that they are tribulation saints who were saved after the rapture of the church is also conjecture.
This crap of saying it is not conjecture, it is not assuming, has got to stop if we are to discuss this reasonably!
Anyone who is saved is a saint, these are the ones who are left on earth after the rapture and were saved.
David is using the fact that they are called "saints" to say they are the Church saints, that is not what the scripture says, it's total conjecture.
What I have said, that they are tribulation saints who were saved after the rapture of the church is also conjecture.
This crap of saying it is not conjecture, it is not assuming, has got to stop if we are to discuss this reasonably!
