Doctrine of Unconditional Election

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
Please explain.

Synergy means two workers.

Man does NOT WORK for salvation.

Rom 4:4,5
4 Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation.
5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.

Eph 2-
8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—
9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

God gives us the faith to believe Him with.

False. God gives us the gospel and man either responds or rejects. The reason Christ died for everyone is so "whosoever believes" will be saved.

If Christ didn't die for any particular person, then that person CANNOT be saved, even if he believed.

But since it appears you don't believe that man is free to respond or reject on his own, I don't expect we'll have a productive discussion.

God initiates man responds.

You are one for three!

 

[FreeGrace2]

Man is not autonomous.

What do you mean by that word?

Free will is simply opportunity to choose. There is no power in being free to choose.

Does a slave do what he wants? No. He is directed by his owner
Does a slave think what he wants? Yes. No owner can force any thought on his slave.

When options are presented, man is faced with a choice. When the gospel is presented, man is faced with a choice. Whether to believe it or not.

 

[rogerg]

God could not be glorified if men were created as robots. Indeed, the question of disobedience would not even arise.

That brings no glory to God. What glorifies God are they who do not choose His mercy, do not choose His grace, do not choose His salvation, disrespect and dishonor Him, set Him at naught, worship and follow the false gospel of Satan as from God, but the Gospel of God as from Satan - and yet, are some of them even in spite of that, and only through the power and strength of His arm, given mercy, grace, forgiveness, a renewed mind, true wisdom, made righteous, cleansed, made born-again, made true believers, moved to share the Gospel, indwelt by/with Holy Spirit, confessing and worshipping Christ, saved for eternity -- the giving of all this a gift from God. This glorifies God because His mercy is glory and by which is His power manifested and magnified to us. As terrible as those sins are, all who become saved were of that group of sinners until saved by God.

 

[HatedForNoReason]

That brings no glory to God. What glorifies God are they who do not choose His mercy, do not choose His grace, do not choose His salvation, disrespect and dishonor Him, set Him at naught, worship and follow the false gospel of Satan as from God, but the Gospel of God as from Satan - and yet, are some of them even in spite of that, and only through the power and strength of His arm, given mercy, grace, forgiveness, a renewed mind, true wisdom, made righteous, cleansed, made born-again, made true believers, moved to share the Gospel, indwelt by/with Holy Spirit, confessing and worshipping Christ, saved for eternity -- the giving of all this a gift from God. This glorifies God because His mercy is glory and by which is His power manifested and magnified to us. As terrible as those sins are, all who become saved were of that group of sinners until saved by God.

I love these verses.

Romans 8:1-2
King James Version

8 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Freedom from sin.

2 Corinthians 5:17
New King James Version

17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.

 

[HatedForNoReason]

Absolute predestination

https://justifiedbychristalone.com/2021/07/25/a-study-of-ephesians-1-verse-11/

 

[HatedForNoReason]

That brings no glory to God. What glorifies God are they who do not choose His mercy, do not choose His grace, do not choose His salvation, disrespect and dishonor Him, set Him at naught, worship and follow the false gospel of Satan as from God, but the Gospel of God as from Satan - and yet, are some of them even in spite of that, and only through the power and strength of His arm, given mercy, grace, forgiveness, a renewed mind, true wisdom, made righteous, cleansed, made born-again, made true believers, moved to share the Gospel, indwelt by/with Holy Spirit, confessing and worshipping Christ, saved for eternity -- the giving of all this a gift from God. This glorifies God because His mercy is glory and by which is His power manifested and magnified to us. As terrible as those sins are, all who become saved were of that group of sinners until saved by God.

I believe God had Absolute predestination all events of history.
https://justifiedbychristalone.com/2021/07/25/a-study-of-ephesians-1-verse-11/

Is it true that man has a will but it is not free?
Either slave to sin or slave to God=feels like family of God=God wants a relationship with his elects.

 

[rogerg]

2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

I would underscore that it was the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus itself that made Paul free from the law of sin and death and
nothing whatsoever that Paul had done.

 

[John146]

I believe God had Absolute predestination all events of history.
https://justifiedbychristalone.com/2021/07/25/a-study-of-ephesians-1-verse-11/

Is it true that man has a will but it is not free?
Either slave to sin or slave to God=feels like family of God=God wants a relationship with his elects.

And we are robots playing along...

Did God predestinate our sin? Did God predestinate Hitler to murder the Jews? Did God predestinate a man to get drunk and kill a family of four?

 

[FreeGrace2]

That brings no glory to God. What glorifies God are they who do not choose His mercy, do not choose His grace, do not choose His salvation, disrespect and dishonor Him, set Him at naught, worship and follow the false gospel of Satan as from God, but the Gospel of God as from Satan - and yet, are some of them even in spite of that, and only through the power and strength of His arm, given mercy, grace, forgiveness, a renewed mind, true wisdom, made righteous, cleansed, made born-again, made true believers, moved to share the Gospel, indwelt by/with Holy Spirit, confessing and worshipping Christ, saved for eternity -- the giving of all this a gift from God.

Wow. What a very long sentence. The first line PROVES that man HAS free will. Good job!

This glorifies God because His mercy is glory and by which is His power manifested and magnified to us. As terrible as those sins are, all who become saved were of that group of sinners until saved by God.

If man does not have free will, how will God be glorified by anything He programs His robots to do?

 

[FreeGrace2]

Absolute predestination

https://justifiedbychristalone.com/2021/07/25/a-study-of-ephesians-1-verse-11/

Why do you include a link about "justification: with a bolded "predestination"?

Do you think they are the same thing?

 

[FreeGrace2]

I believe God had Absolute predestination all events of history.

What verse supports this "absolute predestination" of all events in history?

Rather, God is omniscient. That means that God KNOWS everything. He absolutely knows everything that is going to happen.

To think He predestinates all those things is NOT taught in Scripture. That would mean He predestinates sin. Absolute nonsense.

Is it true that man has a will but it is not free?

No. God created man with a free will. Did Adam freely take the fruit from the woman? Or did God program him to rebel?

So many people fail to understand what "free will" is. Calvinists, when trying to deny it, make it out to be some kind of "force" or "power" which can easily be denied. Such as using the ridiculous example of weather to "prove" that man cannot change it therefore he does not have free will.

I guess the Calvinists view "free will" as some kind of super power or something.

Free will has NO POWER because it isn't a "thing". It IS an opportunity to make a choice.

When options are presented or made available, man is faced with a choice; which option to choose. That's free will.

Anything less than free will is simply puppeting or robots. No middle ground here.




Either slave to sin or slave to God=feels like family of God=God wants a relationship with his elects.[/QUOTE]

 

[rogerg]

Wow. What a very long sentence. The first line PROVES that man HAS free will. Good job!

I'm not going to engage in a multiple day debate with you over this, except to say, no, it means they DO NOT have a will that is free. Choice is not synonymous with free will.

 

[rogerg]

If man does not have free will, how will God be glorified by anything He programs His robots to do?

God is glorified by what God has done. How else could He possibly be glorified? Otherwise, it would be man's actions glorifying man, not God.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
Wow. What a very long sentence. The first line PROVES that man HAS free will. Good job!

I'm not going to engage in a multiple day debate with you over this, except to say, no, it means they DO NOT have a will that is free. Choice is not synonymous with free will.

But you PROVED free will from your first line, just as I pointed out!

Free will is ONLY having a choice between options. I know that is a hard concept for Calvinists to grasp but that is what it is.

You need to separate yourself from the Calvinist notion that is WRONG. That means free will isn't a thing. It is an opportunity to make a choice. Deal with it.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
If man does not have free will, how will God be glorified by anything He programs His robots to do?

God is glorified by what God has done.

There is no argument there! Of course He is.

How else could He possibly be glorified?

Seems you just can't accept the FACT that IF God simply programmed certain people to believe in His Son, that does NOT glorify Him.

What glorifies Him is when human beings respond to His love and not simply doing what He has literally forced them to do.

Otherwise, it would be man's actions glorifying man, not God.

So you think that a person who freely responds to the gospel of love brings that person glory? Seriously?

Well, that certainly explains a whole lot why it's nearly impossible to really have a discussion with a Calvinist. One must be able to grasp what free will actually is, and what grace actually means before any real discussion is possible.

Free will is a free choice between options.

Grace is un-merited favor. That means when man responds to the gospel by freely believing in Christ for salvation, God in GRACE saves the believer.

If you don't believe any of this, prove it's wrong from Scripture.

 

[rogerg]

If man does not have free will, how will God be glorified by anything He programs His robots to do?

See post #1705. If you can't understand it, you probably don't/won't understand Christianity

There is no argument there! Of course He is.

Then why did you ask your first question?

Seems you just can't accept the FACT that IF God simply programmed certain people to believe in His Son, that does NOT glorify Him.

What glorifies Him is when human beings respond to His love and not simply doing what He has literally forced them to do.

No, what glorified God is when He, through Christ, had faithfully achieved His promise. All of the rest, emanated from/by that promise.

[Jer 31:33 KJV] 33 But this [shall be] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

[Eph 4:23-24 KJV]
23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

So you think that a person who freely responds to the gospel of love brings that person glory? Seriously?

If you don't believe any of this, prove it's wrong from Scripture.

No one of themself who is unsaved is able to comprehend/respond to the Gospel.

If you don't believe any of this, prove it's wrong from Scripture.

For your answer, please see Scripture following (verses are in a specific sequence to provide a logical progression of the reply)

[1Co 1:2 KJV]
2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called [to be] saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:

[1Co 2:12 KJV]
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

[1Co 2:14 KJV]
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

[1Co 1:4-5 KJV]
4 I thank my God always on your behalf, for the grace of God which is given you by Jesus Christ;
5 That in every thing ye are enriched by him, in all utterance, and [in] all knowledge;

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
If man does not have free will, how will God be glorified by anything He programs His robots to do?

See post #1705. If you can't understand it, you probably don't/won't understand Christianity

So, instead of answering my question, you default to another post?

Like I'm going to take the time to read ALL of that very long post? Not interested. If you have read the article but still can't communicate what it says (boil it down) it isn't worth the time to read.

No, what glorified God is when He, through Christ, had faithfully achieved His promise.

His promise is to save ALL who believe. Yes, He is glorified by that.

What you still can't seem to explain is how God is glorified IF IF IF those who believe have been programmed by God to believe in the first place.

No one of themself who is unsaved is able to comprehend/respond to the Gospel.

Well, that's been solidly proven WRONG by all the unbelievers out there who CAN accurately explain the gospel, all the while rejecting it.

You are simply naive to think unbelievers can't understand the gospel.

 

[HatedForNoReason]

See post #1705. If you can't understand it, you probably don't/won't understand Christianity



Then why did you ask your first question?



No, what glorified God is when He, through Christ, had faithfully achieved His promise. All of the rest, emanated from/by that promise.

[Jer 31:33 KJV] 33 But this [shall be] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

[Eph 4:23-24 KJV]
23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.





No one of themself who is unsaved is able to comprehend/respond to the Gospel.



For your answer, please see Scripture following (verses are in a specific sequence to provide a logical progression of the reply)

[1Co 1:2 KJV]
2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called [to be] saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:

[1Co 2:12 KJV]
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

[1Co 2:14 KJV]
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

[1Co 1:4-5 KJV]
4 I thank my God always on your behalf, for the grace of God which is given you by Jesus Christ;
5 That in every thing ye are enriched by him, in all utterance, and [in] all knowledge;

Here is the true gospel.
https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...games-and-computer-games-are-all-sins.199859/

 

[rogerg]

Here is the true gospel.
https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...games-and-computer-games-are-all-sins.199859/

Sorry, not sure that I understand your point, but salvation is a gift freely given by God, requiring nothing whatsoever from
its recipient.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Sorry, not sure that I understand your point, but salvation is a gift freely given by God, requiring nothing whatsoever from
its recipient.

A gift is only obtained by receiving it. A gift can be offered, such as Titus 2:11, but apart from belief in Christ for salvation, the gift of eternal life isn't obtained.