Let us do away with the homosexuals & sodomites

Jon-E · Dec 11, 2021

Presidente, you like the word "sophistry", but suppose you be careful about "deceitfulness"!

There is a solid rule of interpretation, when determining the meaning or use of a word and I quote:

"RULE:—To determine the usage of a word, consult its occurrences in literature, and depend most on those nearest the passage in point of context, authorship, date and character of composition." p121
https://icotb.org/resources/PrinciplesofInterpretation.pdf

Following that rule, we can recognize how Moses, in his writing the first 5 books of the Bible, in the context of the law, uses the word to ebah which is Strong's #H8441. I'll quote each use of to ebah until in Deuteronomy where there are too many to quote, but look at it for yourself. The last mention of to ebah I do quote, which is Deut. 32.16, 17. Most uses in Deuteronomy are about ritual uncleanness.

"And they set on for him by himself, and for them by themselves, and for the Egyptians, which did eat with him, by themselves: because the Egyptians might not eat bread with the Hebrews; for that is an abomination(to ebah) unto the Egyptians." (Gen 43:32, KJV)

"That ye shall say, Thy servants' trade hath been about cattle from our youth even until now, both we, and also our fathers: that ye may dwell in the land of Goshen; for every shepherd is an abomination (to ebah) unto the Egyptians." (Gen 46:34, KJV)

"And Moses said, It is not meet so to do; for we shall sacrifice the abomination(to ebah) of the Egyptians to the LORD our God: lo, shall we sacrifice the abomination(to ebah) of the Egyptians before their eyes, and will they not stone us?" (Exod 8:26, KJV)

** The Egyptians did not eat with Hebrews because of their religious view of sheep, shepherds which were an abomination, a sacrifice of sheep. It was a religious abomination!

"Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination(to ebah) ." (Lev 18:22, KJV)

"Ye shall therefore keep my statutes and my judgments, and shall not commit any of these abominations(to ebah) neither any of your own nation, nor any stranger that sojourneth among you: (For all these abominations(to ebah) have the men of the land done, which were before you, and the land is defiled

" (Lev 18:26-27, KJV)

"For whosoever shall commit any of these abominations(to ebah) , even the souls that commit them shall be cut off from among their people. Therefore shall ye keep mine ordinance, that ye commit not any one of these abominable(to ebah) customs, which were committed before you, and that ye defile not yourselves therein: I am the LORD your God." (Lev 18:29-30, KJV)

"If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination(to ebah) : they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them." (Lev 20:13, KJV)

"The graven images of their gods shall ye burn with fire: thou shalt not desire the silver or gold that is on them, nor take it unto thee, lest thou be snared therein: for it is an abomination(to ebah) to the LORD thy God. Neither shalt thou bring an abomination(to ebah) into thine house, lest thou be a cursed thing like it: but thou shalt utterly detest it, and thou shalt utterly abhor it; for it is a cursed thing." (Deut 7:25-26, KJV)

"When the LORD thy God shall cut off the nations from before thee, whither thou goest to possess them, and thou succeedest them, and dwellest in their land; Take heed to thyself that thou be not snared by following them, after that they be destroyed from before thee; and that thou enquire not after their gods, saying, How did these nations serve their gods? even so will I do likewise. Thou shalt not do so unto the LORD thy God: for every abomination(to ebah) to the LORD, which he hateth, have they done unto their gods; for even their sons and their daughters they have burnt in the fire to their gods. What thing soever I command you, observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it." (Deut 12:29-32, KJV)

** Notice how this passage is so similar to Leviticus 18 almost like an explanation and parallel thought.

"Certain men, the children of Belial, are gone out from among you, and have withdrawn the inhabitants of their city, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which ye have not known; Then shalt thou enquire, and make search, and ask diligently; and, behold, if it be truth, and the thing certain, that such abomination(to ebah) is wrought among you;" (Deut 13:13-14, KJV)

........................... So many references to "abominations" in Deuteronomy, the last being:

"They provoked him to jealousy with strange gods, with abominations(to ebah) provoked they him to anger. They sacrificed unto devils, not to God; to gods whom they knew not, to new gods that came newly up, whom your fathers feared not." (Deut 32:16-17, KJV)

** Yes, you can go forward many centuries and quote out of the poetic book of Proverbs and read: "A false balance is abomination to the LORD: but a just weight is his delight." (Prov 11:1, KJV) But that does not overrule the use Moses makes of the word in the Law in the Pentateuch.

presidente · Dec 11, 2021

Jon-E said:

You do in this post what you have done throughout the thread. You try to argue that gay sex is okay or that gay sex is not condemned in the Bible, then you provide a list of quotes, and some or all of them do not support your position or outright argue against your position. Your list of quotes here disproves the argument that you are trying to make.

You start out with quotes that argue against your position. Being a Hebrew is not an idolatrous ritual. Even if some sort of 'religious taboo' concept is inherent in 'to ebah' and it did not just mean something to be considered disgusting or repulsive, then we could conceptualize there could possibly be some religious reason Egyptians found Hebrews and shepherds in general to be repulsive. Either way, it makes no sense to think that being a Hebrew or a shepherd is an idolatrous ritual. These two examples which you quote yourself disprove your case.

Sex with men is disgusting. It's religiously disgusting. So is sex with animals, sex with your mom. Do you think being a mother-koitai is okay? Why would being an arseno-koitai be okay.

There is also the fact that these are set very early in history and the verse about the unjust weights in Proverbs being an abomination are written way late, and the term can be used for something that is not an idol or an idolatrous ritual both early and later in the history of the language.

presidente · Dec 11, 2021

@Jon-E wrote,

Declared to be an abomination, not that it is only an abomination if you happen to be at a Baal worshipping ceremony.

Sex with animals is abhorrent. Sex with your mom is abhorrent. Sex between two men is abhorrent. Idols are abhorrent. No evidence for your position from here either.

There is no evidence for your position here, either. Two men having sex with each other is decreed elsewhere to be an abomination. From what I read about Canaanite paganism, they'd have sex orgies as part of their religious ceremonies, so they'd do sexual abominations (that are already abominations outside of the religious context) as part of their ceremonies. Sex with one's mother is an abomination. Sex with one's mother as a religious act to one of those gods or goddesses' idols is an abomination done unto an abomination-- an abhorrent thing done to an abhorrent thing. Same thing with gay sex. You need to learn to abhor what God ahbors.

No evidence for your position here.

[/quote]

Gay sex is abhorrent. Sex with an animal is abhorrent. Sex with your father's wife is abhorrent. Adultery is abhorrent. Dishonest scales is abhorrent. And here again an idol is abhorrent. There is nothing here to support your point of view.

This doesn't even qualify as sophistry because you haven't made any slick arguments to try to back up a nonsense view. There is no clever argument in your post. You've quoted passages that call two men having sex an abomination along with passages that call idolatry an abomination and acted like you presented some kind of evidence for your point of view.

You did the same thing with scholars, quote someone who outright rejected gay sex, fixated on a certain word (the use of pedarast, which could refer to adult males or involve children), and ignored the rest of the quote. You've quoted old sources about 'prostituting', when, at the time, prostitute did not require the exchange of money, just elicit sex. You keep quoting sources that condemn the behavior you are trying to defend, especially here with the quote from the Bible.

Oblio · Dec 11, 2021

I find that when I'm finished making sure that I'm not becoming arrogant, overfed, or unconcerned about struggling people, I see others in a different light.
I recall when He told me to act justly, love mercy, and walk humbly.
This includes thanking Him that He doesn't treat me the way I deserve. Thank You, Lord.

AworkINprogress · Dec 11, 2021

Jon-E said:

Jonathan and David in the OT were normal men, valiant warriors. David had several wives and many concubines and Jonathan was married and had sons. There is something about their love that is obvious, but denied and ignored by most.

"And it came to pass, when he had made an end of speaking unto Saul, that the soul of Jonathan was knit with the soul of David, and Jonathan loved(H157 ahab) him as his own soul. And Saul took him that day, and would let him go no more home to his father's house. Then Jonathan and David made a covenant, because he loved(H160 ahabah) him as his own soul." (1Sam 18:1-3, KJV)

The first "loved" is the Hebrew ahab and it is very broad in meaning, human to human or even human love to an object. The second "loved" is ahabah and tracing that word, it is more pointed in meaning when used of human love to another human. The first occurrence of the word is the following:

"And Jacob served seven years for Rachel; and they seemed unto him but a few days, for the love he had(H160 ahabah) to her. And Jacob said unto Laban, Give me my wife, for my days are fulfilled, that I may go in unto her." (Gen 29:20-21, KJV)

The next 3 occurrences of this (H160 ahabah) are about the love of Jonathan for David, 1 Sam. 18:3; 20:17; 2 Sam. 1:26. Then this word is used in 2 Sam. 13:15 of the sort of love Amnon had for Tamar which was rape, certainly sexual. The first use for the 5 occurrences of ahabah in human to human love was Jacob's love for Rachel; and the last was the rape of Tamar by Amnon. The 3 other occurrences are of Jonathan and David. Then there is the phrase "the soul of Jonathan was knit with the soul of David", and the Hebrew for "knit" is (H7194 qashar). It is often pointed out that this same word used in the following of the love of father for a son:

"Now therefore when I come to thy servant my father, and the lad be not with us; seeing that his life is bound up(H7194 qashar) in the lad's life;" (Gen 44:30, KJV)

Therefore it is reasoned that the knitting of souls, qashar, is platonic, not in any way sexual. Yet, the REB translates v1 as:

"1–2 That same day, when Saul had finished talking with David, he kept him and would not let him return any more to his father’s house, for he saw that Jonathan had given his heart to David and had grown to love him as himself." (1Sam 18:1, REB)

On what basis did the REB have for translating with such a romantic sounding phrase? The reason can be found in a Hebrew-English Interlinear. The literal translation of this phrase is:

"and soul-of Jonathan she-was-tied in-soul-of David" I put the words in proper English order.
https://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/OTpdf/1sa18.pdf

The female pronoun "she" is included to describe the tie of Jonathan's soul to David. The pronoun "she" is missing in Gen. 44:30. It is interesting where the pronouns "she" and "he" are found in various verses in connection with the Hebrew qashar. The pronoun "she" is used in the Zondervan OT Hebrew-English Interlinear also, a 1987 Edition, placed exactly as given in the following:

H7194 qashar is found in 44 verses in the OT. It has "she" in only 3 verses, 2 speaking of females, and the one speaking of Jonathan.
Gn38:28 "midwife"; Josh2:21 "Rahab"; but then we have this one, 1Sa18:1 "Jonathan".

The gender "he" is joined to qashar in 1Kgs15:27 (male); 16:9,16,20 (him); 2Kgs9:14;10:9;15:10,15,25,30(him); Job41:4(him); Amos7:19(he)

Context again shows in the preceding that these are referring to men, males; the pronouns being of the male gender. Moving up to the next verse in consideration:

"I am distressed for thee, my brother Jonathan: very pleasant hast thou been unto me: thy love to me was wonderful, passing the love of women." (2Sam 1:26, KJV)

Every standard translation renders this "love of women", nowhere is it translated "love of father", "love of mother", "love of brother", "love of wife" or "love of wives"! If the verse meant love of a wife or wives the words were readily available from Genesis forward. The early Latin translations solved the perceived problem by adding a spurious sentence to the verse and this was followed in the Wycliffe and Douay-Rheims translation thus:

"I grieve for thee, my brother Jonathan: exceeding beautiful, and amiable to me above the love of women. As the mother loveth her only son, so did I love thee." (2Sam 1:26, DRC)

That underlined sentence is not in the original and no translations since have added that fraudulent sentence. The purpose of adding "mother love" to this verse is glaringly obvious and the idea that the verse means wife or wives is as ridiculous as those who insist the "wine" in the Bible is truly "grape juice" not wine. It is claimed by some, Jesus certainly would not turn 120-180 gallons of water into a wine, a beverage containing alcohol. The same evasion as that is used trying to transform "love of women" into love of a wife or wives.

Thank you for this. I too am not afraid to speak what is actually written. I was reading today about God telling Isaiah to walk around for 3 years absolutely bare naked and barefoot. Or of one of the prophets where God tells him to marry a harlot and have sex with her. Is what is written means that it’s acceptable? Certainly not.

But that of Jonathan and David, I admire that kind of love between two men that is so strong that it “passes the love of women”. Gone are those days, and everything is a handshake. God forbid that we should show any kind of a affection toward a man. But, brethren get on the righteous bandwagon and classify any type of male affection toward a man to be sexual. Of course it’s about being labeled a queer. I gave up that idea long ago. I am an affectionate man and It doesn’t bother me one iota what men think. I won’t allow myself to be limited to that type of thinking. We should have more David and Johnathan’s and not afraid to say to another man affectionately (not sexually) and not attaching the word “brother“ to make it sound “safe”, but to say, “I love you”.
Someday we may find ourselves in a cold place perhaps being hunted down, and on one of those cold nights, sharing bodily heat might just keep us alive to live another day. If that is too freaky, we need to get beyond ourselves and act more like John who laid his head on Jesus chest.

Thank you poster for expanding your mind and your understanding.

Oblio · Dec 11, 2021

What gets me is how soon we become blind to who and what we have been saved from. I am grateful that I haven't been punished according to God's holiness. And I pray that I never lose sight of this. I no more deserved to be saved than anybody else. Nor do you.

presidente · Dec 11, 2021

Americans who aren't gay tend to be, or used to at least, tend to be a little averse to men expressing too much feeling for one another as friends. David and Jonathan were very close friends. But that does not mean that one of them put an appendage in the other's oriface or something along those lines. That is the type of wickedness this thread is trying to defend.

AworkINprogress · Dec 11, 2021

I hear God tell me to be myself. Not to emulate others, but to be me. To be real. The Church tried to conform me into their image, but I refused. The only image that I know of is the image of Christ. The mind is to be renewed.

If I may take a few moments to explain a bit of Paul. He tells us to do a lot of things in his writings. There is so much that you would think he was giving us a new set of commandments that we should follow.

When Paul is telling us to do something, he is actually speaking from what the Holy Spirit told him and he is speaking to the Holy Spirit in us. Sounds weird doesn’t it? But, it’s the same as the wording, “The LORD said unto my Lord, sit thou at my right hand……………”.

It’s the same LORD speaking giving instructions to Himself. Why? Because He is the one who is filling all things and He alone is the one who has fulfilled all things.

Now, it is what is inside you is doing the work, bringing you into the likeness of Christ as a son of God.

What is our part? Two can not walk together unless they agree. We must cooperate with the Holy Ghost.

The Holy Spirit knows exactly how to worship God.

AworkINprogress · Dec 11, 2021

presidente said:

Americans who aren't gay tend to be, or used to at least, tend to be a little averse to men expressing too much feeling for one another as friends. David and Jonathan were very close friends. But that does not mean that one of them put an appendage in the other's oriface or something along those lines. That is the type of wickedness this thread is trying to defend.

Has someone intimated that idea?

presidente · Dec 11, 2021

AworkINprogress said:

My comment on the recent David and Jonathan posts. btw, I think I now know where 'soul tie' comes from, possibly. I hadn't made the connection before, but a lot of references to it seem to have little to do with David and Jonathan.

AworkINprogress · Dec 11, 2021

presidente said:

I am reading both your posts and the other posters posts, and I so far, at least on page 15 of this thread, I am not reading that your “opponent” is stating that he is endorsing “Sodomy”. I am reading your posts too, but it’s like I am reading the same argument.

When Mom is telling me a point of view, I come back with a rebuttal explaining the same thing. She always comes back with, “didn’t I just say that?”. It’s how I heard her and then again, I really didn’t hear at all.

I will go back to the beginning and see if your “opponent” is stating his support for “gay s-x”.

Thank you

presidente · Dec 11, 2021

AworkINprogress said:

That is because he thinks the quotes which oppose gay sex somehow support it. His statements in favor of homosex are a lot rare than his quotes of sources which do not support his position.

He has argued that it is natural for men to be sexually attracted to each other, that the statements of Paul in Romans 1 about such sexual Acts being against natural do not apply to those for home homosexual attraction is 'natural', and that Leviticus 18 commandmenrs and comments about abominations relate to pagan ritual as opposed to the Acts in general.

Oblio · Dec 11, 2021

I'm not naturally attracted to men...in fact I think women got the raw end of the deal.
Having said that, I have no urge to toss gay people off of buildings, either. I think I'd rather try to understand the situation better than I do now. I don't think gayness is contagious, is it? C'mon, now...they're just people.
I think many gay people don't like Christians because of the way they've been mistreated by us.
I come from a different background and I don't like the way many have treated me, either.
Christ, and Christ alone, is the only reason any of us are not destroyed.

presidente · Dec 12, 2021

Oblio said:

There are all kinds of people in the world, and we have all sinned and come short of the kingdom of God.

The LGBT movement has been rather insistent that everyone, including Christians, endorse a type of sexual sin. Fornicators aren't so insistent. Adulterers don't try to make Christians lose their jobs, usually, for posting on Facebook against adultery. But homosexual activists do.

We should be understanding and have a merciful attitude toward those who have same-sex attraction. if a Christian is tempted in this way, we should try to encourage them. But we should not endorse and justify sin, or compromise the teachings of scripture. Believers are. Paul says of men who had sex with men, 'and such were some of you', but now you washed, sanctified, and justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

Paul also wrote to reckon yourselves dead indeed unto sin. Christians should not wrap their identity up in the sin they are tempted to commit, calling themselves fornicator Christians, homosexual Christians, coveting Christians, etc.

Oblio · Dec 12, 2021

I look at it like this...the world is full of all kinds of people. I deal with people on a one-to-one basis. I try to treat others the way I want to be treated. I don't feel it is my responsibility to tell others how to live their lives. I am not God.
I do not compromise what I believe, nor do I try to push what I believe on others. My job is to get along with others. I've found in life that if I treat others respectfully, they will usually treat me the same. Most people want to live their lives how they see fit and be left alone.
I'm well aware of what the bible says, having started reading it in the 70s. It seems that if I don't come out hating gays, I always hear talk about justify sin. To tell you the truth, the main group of people that I've had trouble with are Christians and their holier-than-thou attitudes.
Before we start on about the sins of the world, I think it would behoove us to take a look at our own.

AworkINprogress · Dec 12, 2021

Oblio said:

I am of the same mindset. The times that the Holy Spirit has moved on me for others wasn’t about sin, it was always about helping people out; whether they were God’s children or not. I am in contact with gay men and women. The subject of this lifestyle never crops up because it’s not something that needs to be discussed. I have a gay friend, we don’t talk everyday. I met him when his two grandmothers and an uncle all died in the same year. He is currently trying to cope with life and is on medication. I’ve helped him along with words of comfort and he has already stated that he has no interest in me other than a friend and vis a vis. But, I’ve inserted God from time to time and he has a hard time believing in God. But, I am in his life for a reason and for me to ditch him because he is gay could result in a suicide and I won’t do that to him. So, this little light of mine, I’m gonna let it shine.

Other believers will quote their pet scriptures to prove that I have to get away from him, but I won’t. I am too much of a radical and I prefer to do things outside the box of what is expected from Christianity. Christ refused to operate like the establishment. He wanted mercy not sacrifice. He was someone that I loved hanging around with, totally unpredictable and totally eccentric.

Oblio · Dec 12, 2021

Thank you for sharing that. The world just got a little less lonely for me. Shalom.
And bless you for hanging in there with your friend.

presidente · Dec 12, 2021

Oblio said:

I look at it like this...the world is full of all kinds of people. I deal with people on a one-to-one basis. I try to treat others the way I want to be treated. I don't feel it is my responsibility to tell others how to live their lives. I am not God.
I do not compromise what I believe, nor do I try to push what I believe on others. My job is to get along with others. I've found in life that if I treat others respectfully, they will usually treat me the same. Most people want to live their lives how they see fit and be left alone.
I'm well aware of what the bible says, having started reading it in the 70s. It seems that if I don't come out hating gays, I always hear talk about justify sin. To tell you the truth, the main group of people that I've had trouble with are Christians and their holier-than-thou attitudes.
Before we start on about the sins of the world, I think it would behoove us to take a look at our own.

The issue here is someone trying to convince ce Christians that a certain sin is okay. God will judge the world.

Btw, did the apostles 'push their beliefs' on others when they preached?

Oblio · Dec 12, 2021

I would say that the issue is always to prove our love for God by loving our neighbor as ourselves.
Lord, help us to love those who hate us
Bless those that curse us
Pray for those who mistreat us
Give to those who take from us

presidente · Dec 12, 2021

Oblio said:

Is silently watching people fall off a cliff love?

Let us do away with the homosexuals & sodomites

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