Doctrine of Unconditional Election

[studentoftheword]

Some people need to really read the scriptures and ask for understanding


Grace by it self WILL NOT save you Folks ------Grace comes THROUGH FAITH ---Faith is needed to Access Grace ------Grace Made Salvation available-------- only---- to all people ----Faith RECEIVES the Salvation ----if you don't receive a thing you have no access to it -----it is just there waiting for someone receive it in to themselves --


Grace and Truth came THROUGH JESUS ---------GRACE is a PERSON HERE ____JESUS IS GRACE -----Jesus died --shed His BLOOD to make SALVATION AVAILABLE TO ALL -----GRACE comes THROUGH FAITH ----- OUR FAITH IN THE SHED BLOOD OF JESUS who is Grace saves us -------

Now we have to be adopted back into God's Family through Faith in Jesus who is Grace


Galatians 3

Sons Through Faith in Christ

25Now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian.

26 You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.

27For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.…


Ephesians 2:8-9

New International Version

8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.



Ephesians 1

New International Version



1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God,
To God’s holy people in Ephesus,[a] the faithful in Christ Jesus:
2 Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.


Praise for Spiritual Blessings in Christ

3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ.

4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love


5 he[b] predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will—

6 to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves.


7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace

8 that he lavished on us. With all wisdom and understanding,

9 he[d] made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ,

10 to be put into effect when the times reach their fulfillment—to bring unity to all things in heaven and on earth under Christ.

11 In him we were also chosen,[e] having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will,

12 in order that we, who were the first to put our hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory.

13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,

14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now many people believe to that God's Covenants are unconditional -------and that is false doctrine -----

All God's Covenants are CONDITIONAL -----Mosaic Covenant --says IF YOU OBEY MY COMMANDS ----IF YOU DON"T ----conditional ----------New Covenant of Grace --CONDITIONAL-----IF YOU ---------say with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart -etc ---then you will be saved -------------- this also gives us free will to choice to accept or reject Jesus as your Saviour ------

God's Love for His Creation is unconditional ------He loves us with all our baggage -----but His Covenants are Conditional

 

[rogerg]

A gift is only obtained by receiving it. A gift can be offered, such as Titus 2:11, but apart from belief in Christ for salvation, the gift of eternal life isn't obtained.

No. Perhaps according to man's imperfect, imprecise, and careless use of words some might term the un-bestowed a gift, but for it to truly be a gift, it had to have been bestowed and in the possession of its recipient -- only then is it a gift. God has declared eternal life a gift. and as such, its bestowing requires nothing whatsoever from its recipients beforehand. Do you think God incapable of that?
Belief in Christ Jesus comes out of/from that gift, but it is in no wise a prerequisite for it.
Of himself, natural man can't give himself true faith in Christ.


[Jhn 12:37-40 KJV]
37 But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him:
38 That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?
39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,
40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with [their] eyes, nor understand with [their] heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

[1Co 2:13-14 KJV]
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

 

[rogerg]

Grace by it self WILL NOT save you Folks ------Grace comes THROUGH FAITH ---Faith is needed to Access Grace ------Grace Made Salvation available-------- only---- to all people ----Faith RECEIVES the Salvation ----if you don't receive a thing you have no access to it -----it is just there waiting for someone receive it in to themselves --

The faith that saves is Christ's faith. The faith of a person doesn't save but is from Christ's faith. Christ was faithful to the Father which
secured salvation for those He has chosen.

Now we have to be adopted back into God's Family through Faith in Jesus who is Grace

Adopted back by the faith OF Christ: Christ's faith. Christ is the Savior, we aren't. All of your references to saving faith have
Christ's faith in view. Our faith comes as a gift from the fruit of the Spirit:

[Gal 5:22 KJV]
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

The Holy Spirit indwells someone only upon becoming born-again, at which time the individual's faith in Christ (along
with other fruit of the Spirit) starts, and grows.

 

[Nehemiah6]

God has declared eternal life a gift. and as such, its bestowing requires nothing whatsoever from its recipients beforehand.

This is not according to Scripture. Even John 3:16 refutes this notion. So let's go to the actual words of Christ to prove that your gospel is not the Gospel of Christ.

JOHN 3:14-18: WHOSOEVER BELIEVES WILL RECEIVE ETERNAL LIFE
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

It is quite evident from this passage alone that the believing comes first and the gift of eternal life comes next. Changing that and reversing it is actually A PERVERSION of the Gospel.

There are also several other things to note in this passage:
1. The offer of eternal life is to "whosoever" -- anyone and everyone.
2. God wants the whole world to be saved.
3. It is because God so loved the whole world of humanity that He sent His Son to die for us.
4. The unbelievers are condemned to eternal damnation
5. That is an expression of God's wrath for disobedience to the Gospel

 

[rogerg]

The offer of eternal life is to "whosoever" -- anyone and everyone.

The question you don't address is who will believe? If you look closely at [1Co 2:13-14 KJV] you will see that only certain people can believe. These verses too:
[1Co 2:13-14 KJV]
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

Until and unless God takes someone from being a "natural man" (an unsaved man) to being saved/born again, as v14 above states,
they can never, ever know/understand things spiritual so faith and understanding are impossible for them. We are all born "natural man".
After all, Christ is the Saviour, we are not.

 

[studentoftheword]

Adopted back by the faith OF Christ: Christ's faith. Christ is the Savior, we aren't. All of your references to saving faith have
Christ's faith in view. Our faith comes as a gift from the fruit of the Spirit:

[Gal 5:22 KJV]
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

The Holy Spirit indwells someone only upon becoming born-again, at which time the individual's faith in Christ (along
with other fruit of the Spirit) starts, and grows.

I say
This is your changing the scripture -----which actually says through Christ -----to your OF CHRIST _----

Your quote here -----Adopted back by the faith OF Christ: Christ's faith.

this is the scripture I quoted
5 he[b] predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will—
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

YOUR Grasping at Straws to satisfy your False Doctrine ------the word in that scripture is not Faith ---it is FAITHFULNESS ----the actual scripture below ----

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.

I say --------Faith comes from hearing God's Word -----Faith is a substance ---Faith manifests your hope --Faith actually can manifest what you hope that is bring it from the unseen into this seen realm ---

Romans 10:17NIV
17 Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word about Christ.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Greek word for Faith ------

Strong's Concordance
hupostasis: a support, substance, steadiness, hence assurance

Usage: (lit: an underlying), (a) confidence, assurance, (b) a giving substance (or reality) to, or a guaranteeing, (c) substance, reality.
standing under a guaranteed agreement ("title-deed"); (figuratively) "title" to a promise or property, i.e. a legitimate claim (because it literally is, "under a legal-standing") – entitling someone to what is guaranteed under the particular agreement.
In Scripture, faith is God's warranty, certifying that the revelation He inbirthed will come to pass (His way).

I say --------Faithfulness is speaking to us about being Faithful to God and His word ----That comes by and through the Holy Spirit ----

I say -------You are just showing your ignorance in understanding the word -----

So you need to start relying on the Holy spirit to help you understand the Truth of the Word and to help you show your Faithfulness to keeping true to God's command and Word -----

 

[Nehemiah6]

The question you don't address is who will believe?

That is not a question we need to be concerned with. Christ said that the Gospel must be preached to EVERY CREATURE. That is our only concern. Not all will believe but some will.

 

[rogerg]

I say
This is your changing the scripture -----which actually says through Christ -----to your OF CHRIST _----

I changed nothing

[Gal 2:16 KJV]
16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
A gift is only obtained by receiving it. A gift can be offered, such as Titus 2:11, but apart from belief in Christ for salvation, the gift of eternal life isn't obtained.

No.

If you either don't understand this or just don't believe it, there is no point in further discussion. It is so common knowledge, it really didn't even need to be said. The fact that you don't understand/believe the truth explains why your views are so confused.

Perhaps according to man's imperfect, imprecise, and careless use of words some might term the un-bestowed a gift, but for it to truly be a gift, it had to have been bestowed and in the possession of its recipient -- only then is it a gift.

That is PRECISELY what I said. How come you didn't read what I posted?

God has declared eternal life a gift. and as such, its bestowing requires nothing whatsoever from its recipients beforehand. Do you think God incapable of that?

I KNOW what the Bible says. It says that those who believe HAVE (as in possess) eternal life. John 5:24

Further, we KNOW who gives eternal life from John 10:28. Jesus said, "I give them eternal life and they shall never perish"

When a person believes, Jesus gives them eternal life.

Belief in Christ Jesus comes out of/from that gift, but it is in no wise a prerequisite for it.

Are you saying that one believes AFTER receiving the gift? That's what your statement suggests.

Of himself, natural man can't give himself true faith in Christ.

I KNOW where belief comes from since I KNOW what the Bible says about it.

Rom 10:10 - For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.

 

[FreeGrace2]

The question you don't address is who will believe? If you look closely at [1Co 2:13-14 KJV] you will see that only certain people can believe.

Nonsense. Go ahead and quote the very best and clearest verse that you think says this.

These verses too:
[1Co 2:13-14 KJV]
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

Doesn't even come close saying what you claim. The text here only says that unbelievers cannot understand the "deep things of God".

Apparently you are unfamiliar with the whole chapter. The gospel is hardly part of the "deep things of God". Paul was referring to advanced doctrines.

 

[rogerg]

That is PRECISELY what I said. How come you didn't read what I posted?

You said it is obtained by receiving it. I said it is given - placed into the possession of the one saved. Is that what you meant?

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
That is PRECISELY what I said. How come you didn't read what I posted?

You said it is obtained by receiving it.

And I clarified by saying it is received by believing in Christ. Again, please actually read my posts.

I said it is given - placed into the possession of the one saved. Is that what you meant?

Eternal life is given to those who believe. John 5:24 makes that very clear.

John 1:12 says those who believe, receive

Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God—

iow, we receive eternal life when we believe in Christ.

 

[rogerg]

Doesn't even come close saying what you claim. The text here only says that unbelievers cannot understand the "deep things of God".

Here they are again. v14 says "things of the spirit". Read them for yourself

[1Co 2:12-14 KJV]
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.



Everyone is born an unbeliever (natural man). How does someone go from an unbelieving natural man who cannot understand
to a believer that can?

The verse is perfectly clear

 

[rogerg]

And I clarified by saying it is received by believing in Christ. Again, please actually read my posts.

Which then is something that must be done by the "receiver" to get it. I said, that nothing can be done to get it - it is a gift.

 

[rogerg]

That is not a question we need to be concerned with. Christ said that the Gospel must be preached to EVERY CREATURE. That is our only concern. Not all will believe but some will.

It is a question to be concerned with because it goes to the heart of salvation

 

[rogerg]

his is your changing the scripture -----which actually says through Christ -----to your OF CHRIST _----

What do you think "through Christ" means? It means that it was by/because of Him - through Christ. Adoption was by Christ not what anyone else did/may do

I say --------Faithfulness is speaking to us about being Faithful to God and His word ----That comes by and through the Holy Spirit ----

No not our faithfulness, Christ's faithfulness - it is what brought salvation

So, tell us, what did Christ achieve? What was His purpose? What was His role in salvation as the Saviour? You don't believe that He alone is the Saviour? Please answer

 

[akennethjr]

If by this you mean that mankind does not have free will, that is patently false. Since God made mankind in His own image and in His own likeness (Gen 1:26,27), He also gave Man free will. This is implied in Genesis 2:16, 17: And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

1. Does this show that Adam could disobey God is he so chose? Absolutely

2. Did Adam disobey God? Absolutely

3. Do men disobey the Gospel? Absolutely

4. Does that confirm that human beings have free will? Absolutely

Both men and angels were created with free will, and both disobeyed God. But God already knew the end from the beginning, therefore the Lamb of God was slain from before the foundation of the world. However, there is no redemption for angels.

God could not be glorified if men were created as robots. Indeed, the question of disobedience would not even arise.

We have free will However God is also sovereign

 

[akennethjr]

Some people need to really read the scriptures and ask for understanding


Grace by it self WILL NOT save you Folks ------Grace comes THROUGH FAITH ---Faith is needed to Access Grace ------Grace Made Salvation available-------- only---- to all people ----Faith RECEIVES the Salvation ----if you don't receive a thing you have no access to it -----it is just there waiting for someone receive it in to themselves --


Grace and Truth came THROUGH JESUS ---------GRACE is a PERSON HERE ____JESUS IS GRACE -----Jesus died --shed His BLOOD to make SALVATION AVAILABLE TO ALL -----GRACE comes THROUGH FAITH ----- OUR FAITH IN THE SHED BLOOD OF JESUS who is Grace saves us -------

Now we have to be adopted back into God's Family through Faith in Jesus who is Grace


Galatians 3

Sons Through Faith in Christ

25Now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian.

26 You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.

27For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.…


Ephesians 2:8-9

New International Version

8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.



Ephesians 1

New International Version



1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God,
To God’s holy people in Ephesus,[a] the faithful in Christ Jesus:
2 Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.


Praise for Spiritual Blessings in Christ

3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ.

4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love


5 he[b] predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will—

6 to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves.


7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace

8 that he lavished on us. With all wisdom and understanding,

9 he[d] made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ,

10 to be put into effect when the times reach their fulfillment—to bring unity to all things in heaven and on earth under Christ.

11 In him we were also chosen,[e] having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will,

12 in order that we, who were the first to put our hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory.

13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,

14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now many people believe to that God's Covenants are unconditional -------and that is false doctrine -----

All God's Covenants are CONDITIONAL -----Mosaic Covenant --says IF YOU OBEY MY COMMANDS ----IF YOU DON"T ----conditional ----------New Covenant of Grace --CONDITIONAL-----IF YOU ---------say with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart -etc ---then you will be saved -------------- this also gives us free will to choice to accept or reject Jesus as your Saviour ------

God's Love for His Creation is unconditional ------He loves us with all our baggage -----but His Covenants are Conditional

Faith does not give us access to Grace But Grace gives us access to faith.

 

[akennethjr]

Faith does not give us access to Grace But Grace gives us access to faith.

Faith is a conduit through which Grace flows

 

[rogerg]

Eternal life is given to those who believe. John 5:24 makes that very clear.

No. No one can believe of themselves. Belief is a fruit of the Spirit; the fruit of the Spirit comes from the indwelling of the Spirit; the indwelling of the Spirit is from being born-again; being born-again is from being saved. The correct way for you to have stated it was: belief is ultimately the product of having been given eternal life -- but not the reverse.

John 1:12 says those who believe, receive

Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God—

You should have included 1:13 too to really understand what was being conveyed:

[Jhn 1:13 KJV]
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

This is entirely consistent with what I've been saying. Note, the born not of the flesh nor of man, but of God, parts; that is, they
had to be born of God first, and from being born, received and believed in His name

iow, we receive eternal life when we believe in Christ.

Nope, exactly the opposite of that, otherwise, we save ourselves, which would be entirely impossible. Christ is the Saviour.