All American Tree Burned and Built Again

[Genipher]

The issue with Christmas, as with other holidays, hinges on several things:

There has to be a worship component. If you enjoy your tree as an element of celebrating the birth of Christ, you should be fine. If you worship your tree, you're off base.

And, God told us it's ok to eat meant sacrificed to idols because we know such idols have no sway over us. Does that not apply to once-pagan celebrations?

Finally, if eating meat sacrificed to idols causes a less-mature believer to stumble, we should abstain even tho it has no real sway over us. In this I find the only reason to not celebrate ... not that the celebration is corrupt, but that it causes some to stumble.

So for the milk drinkers among us, I guess we should put the trees away..?

Actually, now that I think about it, that's a great response. From now on any time a Christian disagrees with me, I'm just going to call them a baby Christian and offer them a bottle of milk.

 

[kaylagrl]

I have many thoughts on this question and will not discuss them here. I have gone into great detail on the celebration of Christmas in my blog (Summary of Bible references on the rapture) and I will focus specifically on the Christmas tree in the new thread.

I associate the birth of Jesus with the New Testament.

Enough said, you're entitled to your POV.

 

[kaylagrl]

It seems that your question is why burn down a Christmas tree which we are seeing happen frequently and it seems the implied thought here is that this is an attack on Christianity.

My fundamental belief is that Jesus is lord and no one does anything without it being allowed by the Lord. Satan's attack on Job was under God's sovereignty and it worked out for a deeper revelation of God.

So I find your question way too simplistic. If they are attacking Christianity why not attack Jesus, or the cross, or salvation? Why not burn bibles instead? Why burn Christmas trees which have a very clear history that goes back to Babylon, the worship of pagan Gods depicting the Antichrist, and the birth of this pagan deity on December 25th? Why wouldn't this be God giving us a warning of the coming the judgement He said He would bring about on Babylon? Why wouldn't this be God saying "come out of her my people"

You don't see them attacking Jesus, the cross and salvation?? My land!! What about the ten commandments? They have tried, in certain places succeeded in taking crosses off graves and in public places. The tossed the Bible out not so long ago. Go ahead and start preaching in a public place using the name Jesus and see what happens. Seriously, where've you been?

 

[kaylagrl]

I think it's more people don't like being told they can't contribute their thoughts to a conversation, on a public forum.

I asked that people that are anti - Christmas not turn this into a debate. We have all kinds of topics on that here every year and you can discuss them there. This is the news thread, that is the topic. It's rude to make the topic something you wish to push instead.

 

[kaylagrl]

The issue with Christmas, as with other holidays, hinges on several things:

There has to be a worship component. If you enjoy your tree as an element of celebrating the birth of Christ, you should be fine. If you worship your tree, you're off base.

And, God told us it's ok to eat meant sacrificed to idols because we know such idols have no sway over us. Does that not apply to once-pagan celebrations?

Finally, if eating meat sacrificed to idols causes a less-mature believer to stumble, we should abstain even tho it has no real sway over us. In this I find the only reason to not celebrate ... not that the celebration is corrupt, but that it causes some to stumble.

So for the milk drinkers among us, I guess we should put the trees away..?

If a Christmas tree causes someone to stumble, I can't ever see that happening. I know many Christians have no issue with drinking. I would say that is an area you could cause someone to stumble, not a Christmas tree.

 

[ZNP]

You don't see them attacking Jesus, the cross and salvation?? My land!! What about the ten commandments? They have tried, in certain places succeeded in taking crosses off graves and in public places. The tossed the Bible out not so long ago. Go ahead and start preaching in a public place using the name Jesus and see what happens. Seriously, where've you been?

You are conflating the two. We have a mentally ill person who set fire to a Christmas tree, didn't hurt anyone and now will get to stay in jail out of the cold.

Are you really going to tell me he is part of some big conspiracy involving people who go into churches and shoot everyone up, or deface church property, or scream and yell about the ten commandments?

I will repeat myself for the umpteenth time on this thread since many refuse to actually read what i have said. I equate the NT with Jesus and His birth. If someone attacks the Bible, or burns the Bible or is against the ten commandments then yes, that is an attack on the Lord. If they mock, ridicule and insult Jesus in films and on TV then yes, that is taking the Lord's name in vain and will be punished (not by me, vengeance is the Lord's, He will repay).

But if they burn a Christmas tree, a symbol that comes from Babylon and depicts the worship of Baal, then yes, I will not be pleased with the dangerous violence in public, but will not consider that an attack on Jesus in any way, shape or form.

 

[kaylagrl]

So the world associates us with a tree that we cut down, elaborately decorate, make the focal point of our living rooms, and sing to (O Christmas Tree/How lovely are your branches). Does that make it right in God's eyes? Should we claim a false idol just because the world associates Christians with a tree?

It's not an idol. We sing about all kinds of things in nature. Birds, insects, roads, homes, are they idols? No.

You called it a symbol earlier but one of the definitions of idol is:

2: a representation or symbol of an object of worship broadly : a false god
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/idol

It's not an idol, a god, nor is it worshipped.

Looks like it was a homeless guy named Craig Tamanaha that burned the tree down. Maybe he was against Christmas and wanted, like Gideon, to tear down the high places (Judges 6).
Or maybe he wanted a warm cell to live for the winter and this was a good way to get it without hurting anyone.

He's a criminal and well known to the cops.

 

[kaylagrl]

You are conflating the two. We have a mentally ill person who set fire to a Christmas tree, didn't hurt anyone and now will get to stay in jail out of the cold.

He's a criminal and known to the cops, was probably out within the hour.

Are you really going to tell me he is part of some big conspiracy involving people who go into churches and shoot everyone up, or deface church property, or scream and yell about the ten commandments?

I don't know if he isn't or his isn't. It's certainly possible that he could be that person. He's known to the cops. And I think you're taking this discussion a wee bit too seriously. It's a possibility.

I will repeat myself for the umpteenth time on this thread since many refuse to actually read what i have said.

Not sure exactly how many times umpteenth is, but it's not the amount of times you've said it in this thread. We're on post 27 of a 2 page discussion. I didn't refuse to do anything. I read what you said. I answered it so obviously I read it.

I equate the NT with Jesus and His birth.

Right and I didn't say anything against that. The whole Bible talks about his birth for that matter. I asked if you realized that people see the Christmas tree as part the Christian celebration of Christmas.

But if they burn a Christmas tree, a symbol that comes from Babylon and depicts the worship of Baal, then yes, I will not be pleased with the dangerous violence in public, but will not consider that an attack on Jesus in any way, shape or form.

Yep, you already stated that and my answer was, enough said. I disagree with you on this subject.

 

[ZNP]

It's not an idol. We sing about all kinds of things in nature. Birds, insects, roads, homes, are they idols? No.

It's not an idol, a god, nor is it worshipped.

What does it have to do with Jesus birth?

 

[kaylagrl]

What does it have to do with Jesus birth?

So you don't celebrate Christmas at all?

 

[ZNP]

So you don't celebrate Christmas at all?

I celebrate the Lord's birth. I love hymns like "Hark the Herald Angels sing" and "Joy to the World". I love the stories of the Lord's birth in the book of Luke. You have not answered the question. You have repeatedly asserted that the Christmas tree is associated with Jesus birth. Where do you get that from?

 

[kaylagrl]

I celebrate the Lord's birth. You have not answered the question. You have repeatedly asserted that the Christmas tree is associated with Jesus birth. Where do you get that from?

What I said was that people outside the church see the Christmas tree as a symbol of Christianity and Christmas time, which is when the vast majority of Christians celebrate Jesus' birth.

 

[ZNP]

What I said was that people outside the church see the Christmas tree as a symbol of Christianity and Christmas time, which is when the vast majority of Christians celebrate Jesus' birth.

In Post #1 you said "P.S. If you don't celebrate Christs birth please move on, this is not a discussion on that subject. This is news story about a Christmas tree."

So please explain. I celebrate the Lord's birth and do not see the connection with a Christmas tree. Why are you telling me to move on? I would like to know what one has to do with the other.

 

[Genipher]

It's not an idol. We sing about all kinds of things in nature. Birds, insects, roads, homes, are they idols? No.
It's not an idol, a god, nor is it worshipped.]

Yes, we sing about things. There's a difference, don't you think, in singing ABOUT God's creation vs standing in front of a tree decorated by man and singing TO it? Telling a tree, through song, how lovely it is? It doesn't smack of worshipping creation instead of Creator?

Definition of idol says otherwise.
And the way a mere tree is revered and defended soooo very much should give pause as to the "worship" it's actually getting.

Worship definition according to Miriam Dictionary:
to regard with great or extravagant respect, honor, or devotion

Seems these trees are, indeed, being worshipped.

I'm not sure what you were hoping for in starting this thread. Everyone is going to have their own take on a shared news source. To limit conversations that can arise from this topic makes me think you were just looking for an echo chamber or something.

 

[Genipher]

It's not an idol. We sing about all kinds of things in nature. Birds, insects, roads, homes, are they idols? No.

As an aside, yes. If someone is revering, honoring, or putting any of these things above Yahweh, then they've become an idol. And during the Xmas season I think it is easy for people to slip into that idolization of both the tree and the holiday.

 

[ZNP]

As an aside, yes. If someone is revering, honoring, or putting any of these things above Yahweh, then they've become an idol. And during the Xmas season I think it is easy for people to slip into that idolization of both the tree and the holiday.

The real tell is how they get upset if you talk about the Christmas tree as being pagan as though you have insulted their religious worship.

 

[Genipher]

The real tell is how they get upset if you talk about the Christmas tree as being pagan as though you have insulted their religious worship.

That's what I was thinking.
You can tell what is near and dear to someone's heart by how vehemently they defend it.

 

[ZNP]

David Wilkerson on Gideon tearing down the altar of Baal, which was referenced earlier on this thread.

 

[JTB]

If a Christmas tree causes someone to stumble, I can't ever see that happening. I know many Christians have no issue with drinking. I would say that is an area you could cause someone to stumble, not a Christmas tree.

These threads appear every year, with some Christians saying we shouldn't celebrate Christmas because of it's pagan origins and the fear that we are worshipping pagan gods if we do.

Is that not a stumbling Christian? (No offense intended)

 

[ZNP]

These threads appear every year, with some Christians saying we shouldn't celebrate Christmas because of it's pagan origins and the fear that we are worshipping pagan gods if we do.

Is that not a stumbling Christian? (No offense intended)

This is a reasonable comparison but I think it is slightly different than being portrayed. If Paul was invited to dinner at someone's house that had a Christmas tree he would eat dinner there knowing that an idol is nothing. However, if his eating there were to offend some weaker saints he wouldn't eat. I agree with that.

To then assume that Paul would set up a Christmas tree himself in his house, that is definitely not portrayed by Paul in Corinthians.

1Corinthians 5:10 not at all meaning with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous and extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world:

If you go to a Christmas party at work you may have to see Christmas trees, Paul is saying get over it.

1Corinthians 5:11 but as it is, I wrote unto you not to keep company, if any man that is named a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such a one no, not to eat.

It makes a difference if the person who has this tree says they are a believer or not.

. 8 But food will not [b]commend us to God: neither, if we eat not, [c]are we the worse; nor, if we eat, [d]are we the better. 9 But take heed lest by any means this [e]liberty of yours become a stumblingblock to the weak. 10 For if a man see thee who hast knowledge sitting at meat in an idol’s temple, will not his conscience, if he is weak, [f]be emboldened to eat things sacrificed to idols?