Doctrine of Unconditional Election
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FreeGrace2 said:
And I clarified by saying it is received by believing in Christ. Again, please actually read my posts.
So receiving something is considered as earning it? That's ridiculous.
And I clarified by saying it is received by believing in Christ. Again, please actually read my posts.
So receiving something is considered as earning it? That's ridiculous.
FreeGrace2 said:
Eternal life is given to those who believe. John 5:24 makes that very clear.
Well, at least you are very clear about NOT believing what the Bible says. John 3:15,16, 5:24, 6:40 and 11:25-27 refute your ideas.
Oh right. And Rom 10:10. Man believes from his heart.
Unbelievers don't have the Spirit, so your ideas are still unbiblical. Let's add Gal 3:2 and 5 to what you don't believe.
And let's also add Eph 1:13,14 since the indwelling of the Spirit (sealing) comes from "having believed".
And let's also add Eph 2:5 and 8. Being "made alive" or "born again" comes from faith. Belief from the heart.
But you don't understand v.13 at all. It isn't about believing, it is about God's decision to give new birth to those who believe (frm the heart).
There's a whole lot of the Bible that you have clearly shown that you do not accept.
Eternal life is given to those who believe. John 5:24 makes that very clear.
Well, at least you are very clear about NOT believing what the Bible says. John 3:15,16, 5:24, 6:40 and 11:25-27 refute your ideas.
Oh right. And Rom 10:10. Man believes from his heart.
Unbelievers don't have the Spirit, so your ideas are still unbiblical. Let's add Gal 3:2 and 5 to what you don't believe.
And let's also add Eph 1:13,14 since the indwelling of the Spirit (sealing) comes from "having believed".
And let's also add Eph 2:5 and 8. Being "made alive" or "born again" comes from faith. Belief from the heart.
But you don't understand v.13 at all. It isn't about believing, it is about God's decision to give new birth to those who believe (frm the heart).
There's a whole lot of the Bible that you have clearly shown that you do not accept.
These verse ? Verse 1 Co2:10 & 6?
[1Co 2:10 KJV] 10 But God hath revealed [them] unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
Wait - verse 10 says "by the Spirit"; that is, God reveals it through the Spirit. That argues for what I've been saying, not what you've been saying. There is nothing in those verses about natural man's ability to understand things spiritual, right?
Okay let's look at verse 6 (and accompanying verses too). Did you actually read them?
[1Co 2:5-7 KJV]
5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.
See the "not"? Their faith was by the power of God, not by man's wisdom and thereby eliminates natural (unsaved) man as being the object.
6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:
See the "are perfect"? Those who are already saved. If natural (unsaved) man were in view, then the verse couldn't say "are perfect".
See the "not" and the "nought"? The wisdom of this world, the wisdom of natural man, comes to naught (nada). Spiritual wisdom can only be given to someone by God.
7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, [even] the hidden [wisdom], which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
God's hidden His wisdom -- hidden from the beginning of time, for their glory. For whose glory? Only those called.
[1Co 2:10 KJV] 10 But God hath revealed [them] unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
Wait - verse 10 says "by the Spirit"; that is, God reveals it through the Spirit. That argues for what I've been saying, not what you've been saying. There is nothing in those verses about natural man's ability to understand things spiritual, right?
Okay let's look at verse 6 (and accompanying verses too). Did you actually read them?
[1Co 2:5-7 KJV]
5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.
See the "not"? Their faith was by the power of God, not by man's wisdom and thereby eliminates natural (unsaved) man as being the object.
6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:
See the "are perfect"? Those who are already saved. If natural (unsaved) man were in view, then the verse couldn't say "are perfect".
See the "not" and the "nought"? The wisdom of this world, the wisdom of natural man, comes to naught (nada). Spiritual wisdom can only be given to someone by God.
7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, [even] the hidden [wisdom], which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
God's hidden His wisdom -- hidden from the beginning of time, for their glory. For whose glory? Only those called.
I say ----
Again you show your ignorance of understanding what the Scripture is saying ----you should really rely on the Holy Spirit to help you in your understanding of the truth of Scripture ------
The Greek word for faith of Christ or faith in Christ is ---
Pistis Iesou: “Faith of Jesus” or “Faith in Jesus”
Technically, the genitive phrase means either “believer’s faith in Jesus Christ” or “the faith of Jesus Christ.”
I say ------So our Faith has to be in Jesus and His Shed Blood to be saved --
I say ---So you see both mean the same thing ------The Faith of Jesus Christ simply means that the Word is Jesus Christ and by the Word who is Jesus the Right Faith is inbirthed in us by us hearing the Word of Jesus Christ -------so the Faith of Jesus means the same as Faith in Jesus -----
Amplified Bible
yet we know that a man is not justified [and placed in right standing with God] by works of the Law, but [only] through faith in [God’s beloved Son,] Christ Jesus. And even we [as Jews] have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the Law. By observing the Law no one will ever be justified [declared free of the guilt of sin and its penalty].
New International Version
know that a person is not justified by the works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no one will be justified.
New Living Translation
Yet we know that a person is made right with God by faith in Jesus Christ, not by obeying the law. And we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we might be made right with God because of our faith in Christ, not because we have obeyed the law. For no one will ever be made right with God by obeying the law.”
English Standard Version
yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.
Berean Study Bible
know that a man is not justified by works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.
Berean Literal Bible
nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by works of law, except through faith from Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith from Christ, and not by works of the Law, because by works of the Law not any flesh will be justified.
King James Bible
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
New King James Version
knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.
New American Standard Bible
nevertheless, knowing that a person is not justified by works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the Law; since by works of the Law no flesh will be justified.
NASB 1995
nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified.
You are wrong in your reversed assumption -----without first Faith you cannot access Grace ------you have to be able to come near God to access His Grace -----and Having the Right Faith is the only way to come near God -----
Hebrews 11:6 AMP B
6 But without faith it is impossible to [walk with God and] please Him, for whoever comes [near] to God must [necessarily] believe that God exists and that He rewards those who [earnestly and diligently] seek Him.
Hebrews 11:6 AMP B
6 But without faith it is impossible to [walk with God and] please Him, for whoever comes [near] to God must [necessarily] believe that God exists and that He rewards those who [earnestly and diligently] seek Him.
[Eph 1:4-6 KJV]
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
Exactly FreeGrace2 ... Paul was referring to the mystery which God ordained before the world unto our glory (1 Cor 2:7).
Paul was not referring to the gospel which was never a mystery ... nor was the gospel ever "hidden".
In fact Paul clearly states that he preached only Christ and Him crucified (which is the basics of the gospel) and could go no further than that with the majority of the church at Corinth because the believers in Corinth followed the teaching of men (1 Cor 1:10-12) ... which resulted in immature believers who were yet carnal (1 Cor 3:3). So Paul fed the carnal believers the milk of the word (1 Cor 3:1-2).
However, Paul was able to teach more in-depth with those who were "perfect" (1 Cor 2:6) ... "perfect" meaning mature, of full age, adult. The believers who followed the Lord Jesus Christ were believers who matured to adulthood and Paul could teach the mystery ... as well as compare spiritual things with spiritual with them.
It's such a shame that people use 1 Corinthians 2:13-14 to teach that the pure gospel is something that people "can never, ever know/understand things spiritual so faith and understanding are impossible for them". What a lie from the pit.
Paul was not referring to the gospel which was never a mystery ... nor was the gospel ever "hidden".
In fact Paul clearly states that he preached only Christ and Him crucified (which is the basics of the gospel) and could go no further than that with the majority of the church at Corinth because the believers in Corinth followed the teaching of men (1 Cor 1:10-12) ... which resulted in immature believers who were yet carnal (1 Cor 3:3). So Paul fed the carnal believers the milk of the word (1 Cor 3:1-2).
However, Paul was able to teach more in-depth with those who were "perfect" (1 Cor 2:6) ... "perfect" meaning mature, of full age, adult. The believers who followed the Lord Jesus Christ were believers who matured to adulthood and Paul could teach the mystery ... as well as compare spiritual things with spiritual with them.
It's such a shame that people use 1 Corinthians 2:13-14 to teach that the pure gospel is something that people "can never, ever know/understand things spiritual so faith and understanding are impossible for them". What a lie from the pit.
So, you're saying we must have faith in Christ, to have faith in Christ, to have faith in Christ, to be saved? That right?
[Gal 2:16 KJV] 16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of "in" Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of in Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
So according to your interpretation re the above, to be saved, we must first have...... wait for it....... faith in Christ ...... to have faith in Christ...... to have faith in Christ? How, in any universe, could that make sense? Explain the logic of the verse using your interpretation since you say that "faith of Christ" is not Christ's faith, or that the "faith of Christ" means the same as "faith in Christ".
[Gal 2:16 KJV] 16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of "in" Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of in Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
So according to your interpretation re the above, to be saved, we must first have...... wait for it....... faith in Christ ...... to have faith in Christ...... to have faith in Christ? How, in any universe, could that make sense? Explain the logic of the verse using your interpretation since you say that "faith of Christ" is not Christ's faith, or that the "faith of Christ" means the same as "faith in Christ".
FreeGrace2 said:
And so is v.10, which you conveniently ignored. And v.6
Yep.
Did you miss "the deep things of God"? That's not the gospel. ANYONE can understand the gospel.
no, quite the opposite.
I agree. My point is that the gospel isn't "spiritual". It's about receiving a free gift from God through trust in His Son.
Don't be condescending. I read through the NT MONTHLY and have been doing so for nearly 2 decades.
How many times have you read through 1 Cor? In your entire life.
Did YOU see "we speak wisdom...yet NOT the wisdom of this world"?? iow, Paul was directly speaking about advanced doctrines, that ONLY believers can understand.
Again, the gospel isn't an "advanced doctrine.
Titus 2:11 makes very clear that God offers salvation to everyone. By grace.
God has hidden advanced doctrines from unbelievers, of course.
But again, the gospel isn't an advanced doctrine.
And so is v.10, which you conveniently ignored. And v.6
Yep.
Did you miss "the deep things of God"? That's not the gospel. ANYONE can understand the gospel.
no, quite the opposite.
I agree. My point is that the gospel isn't "spiritual". It's about receiving a free gift from God through trust in His Son.
Don't be condescending. I read through the NT MONTHLY and have been doing so for nearly 2 decades.
How many times have you read through 1 Cor? In your entire life.
Did YOU see "we speak wisdom...yet NOT the wisdom of this world"?? iow, Paul was directly speaking about advanced doctrines, that ONLY believers can understand.
Again, the gospel isn't an "advanced doctrine.
Titus 2:11 makes very clear that God offers salvation to everyone. By grace.
God has hidden advanced doctrines from unbelievers, of course.
But again, the gospel isn't an advanced doctrine.
FreeGrace2 said:
So receiving something is considered as earning it? That's ridiculous.
Another red herring. Since Rom 10:10 tells us plainly that man believes from the heart, your point is pointless. There is no "wisdom of natural man" in trusting what God says. It's simply a matter of trust. No deep doctrine in the gospel.
And, where is any verse that teaches clearly (that means unambiguously) that unregenerate people cannot understand the gospel?
And again, Titus 2:11 refutes your opinion.
For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people. Unambiguous.
So receiving something is considered as earning it? That's ridiculous.
Another red herring. Since Rom 10:10 tells us plainly that man believes from the heart, your point is pointless. There is no "wisdom of natural man" in trusting what God says. It's simply a matter of trust. No deep doctrine in the gospel.
And, where is any verse that teaches clearly (that means unambiguously) that unregenerate people cannot understand the gospel?
And again, Titus 2:11 refutes your opinion.
For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people. Unambiguous.
The Greek word for inbirthed
Strong's Concordance
emphutos
: innate, implanted
Definition: innate, implanted
Usage: inborn, ingrown, congenital, natural, rooted, implanted.
HELPS Word-studies
1721 émphytos (from 1722 /en, "in" and 5453 /phýō, "germinate, grow, spring up") – properly, implant, bring into living union like with a successfully engrafted shoot;
(figuratively) what is "planted" and hence "inborn, congenital, natural" (Souter), i.e. placed in ("established") which enables something to develop -
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I say --------------The Word who is Jesus inplants -----inbirths The Right Faith in us --------Faith comes by hearing the Word ----Who is Jesus ------so that we may experience His Grace -------
The Faith that the Word inplants ---inbirths in us is a producing Faith -------It produces God's Promises and Spitiual Blessings in our lives ----which is given to us by God's Grace ----
FreeGrace2 said:
There's a whole lot of the Bible that you have clearly shown that you do not accept.
The difference is that I provided verses that actually SAY what I believe and REFUTE what you keep saying.
It means, just as John the baptist (John 1:29) and the Samaritans (Jn 4:42) believed, that Jesus would die for all of humanity, not just some of them. Without the sacrificial death of Christ, NO ONE could be saved. He HAD to pay the sin debt.
If Jesus didn't die for EVERYONE, then Titus 2:11 is a LIE, straight up. Do you believe that?
Clearly, to pay the sin debt, so that God the Father can provide salvation by grace through faith in Christ.
To believe that Christ's death saves people, you would HAVE to be a universalist, since the Bible clearly and UNAMBIGUOUSLY teaches that He died for everyone.
His death took the penalty so God can save by grace through faith.
If Christ hadn't died for someone, then they COULDN'T be saved even by faith. The debt HAS TO BE PAID.
There's a whole lot of the Bible that you have clearly shown that you do not accept.
The difference is that I provided verses that actually SAY what I believe and REFUTE what you keep saying.
It means, just as John the baptist (John 1:29) and the Samaritans (Jn 4:42) believed, that Jesus would die for all of humanity, not just some of them. Without the sacrificial death of Christ, NO ONE could be saved. He HAD to pay the sin debt.
If Jesus didn't die for EVERYONE, then Titus 2:11 is a LIE, straight up. Do you believe that?
Clearly, to pay the sin debt, so that God the Father can provide salvation by grace through faith in Christ.
To believe that Christ's death saves people, you would HAVE to be a universalist, since the Bible clearly and UNAMBIGUOUSLY teaches that He died for everyone.
His death took the penalty so God can save by grace through faith.
If Christ hadn't died for someone, then they COULDN'T be saved even by faith. The debt HAS TO BE PAID.
I say -----
The Greek interpretation says that that both are the same ------if you have a problem with the Greek interpretation than you will have to talk to the Greek people who said that ---I just believe what the Greek interpretation is saying -----and it makes sense to me in the scriptures ------and the Scriptures I posted which were quite a few most say IN CHRIST ---ONE says of Christ ---and One says From Christ ---but all mean the same -----Faith in the Word ---Who is Jesus ----Faith comes by hearing the WORD -----this gives you access to what God has Graced to us
The Greek interpretation says that that both are the same ------if you have a problem with the Greek interpretation than you will have to talk to the Greek people who said that ---I just believe what the Greek interpretation is saying -----and it makes sense to me in the scriptures ------and the Scriptures I posted which were quite a few most say IN CHRIST ---ONE says of Christ ---and One says From Christ ---but all mean the same -----Faith in the Word ---Who is Jesus ----Faith comes by hearing the WORD -----this gives you access to what God has Graced to us