How the Pre-Trib Rapture Became Popular in the Modern Church

peldom10 · Dec 12, 2021

< Sheesh.
You say 'there is no language to support your thoughts' <really? even though I have quoted numerous bible verses?
You say< 'The only conclusion I can reach from your thought is that it is a way to project a conclusion of a timed arrival of Christ at His 2nd advent and that is strictly prohibited by scripture. <there is nothing I have said that could even imply such a thing--show me where anything I've written has anything with predicting Christ's second coming.

The Meaning of Numbers: The Number 1000 (also see list of verses using the number 1000)

"First, it should be pointed out that scripture does not speak of “the thousand year reign of Christ.” Revelation 20:4 says, “…and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God,…and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.” Notice that it’s not Christ that reigns 1000 years! It’s those who were killed for God’s sake that reign with Christ 1000 years. There are nineteen (19) Bible verses that declare that Christ’s reign is forever. Revelation 11:15 is one of the nineteen: “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ; and He will reign forever and ever.”

http://www.scripturerevealed.com/bible-studies/the-meaning-of-numbers-the-number-1000/

"Pilate therefore said to Him, “Are You a king then?” Jesus answered, “You say rightly that I am a king. For this cause I was born, and for this cause I have come into the world, that I should bear witness to the truth. Everyone who is of the truth hears My voice.”"--John 18:37

"Looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God." <seated at the right hand. that means he is reigning NOW. John 18:36

"And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, <we are reigning with him NOW.

"For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given,
and the government will be on his shoulders.
And he will be called
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
7 Of the greatness of his government and peace
there will be no end.
He will reign on David’s throne
and over his kingdom,
establishing and upholding it
with justice and righteousness
from that time on and forever."
_-Isaiah 9:6-7[/QUOTE]

Be tolerant with disagreement.

I did not say you did not post references. I said they do not support your position. I see many posting of references which do not support the contentions.
The reference to Christ and 1000 years is proof thaat you are wrong.
Your thought that Christ is now reigning during a 2000 year period is weird. With all the sin, conflict. moral decay, etc...we are now
seeing and to conclude that is a reign of Christ on earth is without scriptural basis.....whatsoever.
end of comment from this end. I again suggest you to give it a second look....because you are wrong.

Nehemiah6 · Dec 12, 2021

Laura798 said:

No, all the dead are NOT asleep in the ground at all, and we do NOT see that clearly. Just the burrowing animals which hibernate in winter. The discredited Soul Sleep doctrine is primarily from the cults, along with their package of false teachings.

The true Bible doctrine is that (1) all the saints (OT and NT) are presently in Heaven within the New Jerusalem (Heb 12:22-24) while (2) all the unsaved souls are in Hades awaiting their final judgment.

"Sleep" is a metaphor for physical death, so when the corpse is placed in the grave, it gives the appearance sleeping. But the souls and spirits of those who are in Christ go to Heaven immediately upon death, for to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord in Heaven. The death of Stephen is the best example.

And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit. And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep. (Acts 7:59,60)

So let's ask ourselves a few questions:
1. Did Stephen literally see Christ standing at the right hand of God? YES
2. Did Jesus literally receive his spirit upon his death? YES
3. Did Stephen literally fall asleep after being stoned mercilessly? NO
4. Does the next chapter show that Stephen was literally buried? YES

So Laura, please tell us to which cult you belong, since you have embraced the unbiblical Soul Sleep doctrine?

Laura798 · Dec 12, 2021

peldom10 said:

Your said: Be tolerant with disagreement. <Where is there any intolerance in my response? I merely responded to your accusations.

Your said: I did not say you did not post references. I said they do not support your position. I see many posting of references which do not support the contentions. < I think what you're really saying is my words do not support YOUR position.

Your said:The reference to Christ and 1000 years is proof that you are wrong. <How so?
Your thought that Christ is now reigning during a 2000 year period is weird. With all the sin, conflict. moral decay, etc...we are now
seeing and to conclude that is a reign of Christ on earth is without scriptural basis.....whatsoever. <It is weird only from your perspective and because you ignored the verses I posted supporting my position. The time is irrelevant. The point is He is reigning now and has been reigning since He preached 'the kingdom of heaven is at hand'

You said: I again suggest you to give it a second look....because you are wrong.< Someone is wrong and I don't believe it is me.

"2When asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, “The kingdom of God will not come with observable signs. 21Nor will people say, ‘Look, here it is,’ or ‘There it is.’ For you see, the kingdom of God is in your midst.”
--Luke 17:20-21

I'm sorry Peldom, but it seems to me you are trying to justify what you said previously--the rephrasing of your words is like turning your shirt inside out, putting it back on, then saying "see, this isn't the shirt i was wearing"...

Laura798 · Dec 12, 2021

Nehemiah6 said:

You are taking one verse as so many others do , "To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord" and completely ignoring the rest of scripture! I posted numerous verses--which support this truth, so it is obviously not some 'cult' belief unless you do not believe the scriptures.A dead body isn't asleep, so of course it is the SOUL that sleeps! I'm sorry, but I am amazed at the ignorance of this and that so many believers take this nonsense hook, line, and sinker--oh how we need more Bereans in the church!

Of course when you are absent from the body you are present with the Lord! When one is asleep they have NO sense of time passing--you could be asleep a thousand years--it will be a blink of an eye--you close your eyes in the sleep of death, and when you awaken at Christ's coming you are with the Lord!

Unbelievable that will ALL the verses I've given -- people STILL isolate scripture and ignore all the rest that clearly states we will NOT receive our immortal bodies UNTIL Christ' return! That we CANNOT stand before God as some disembodied spirit before the resurrection--why would it even be called 'resurrection'--we CERTAINLY don't get our old bodies! It is our SOULS that are resurrected, not our decrepit, decayed body, and bones--sheesh and double sheesh....

1ofthem · Dec 12, 2021

DavidTree said:

I agree. The Lord has taught me many things through his Spirit.

I have learned not to go over what he teaches me. I know that the Holy Ghost will never contradict the Word of God. I've found that at times when I think there is a contradiction in scripture, then I have to search the scriptures and let the Spirit show me. When I allow the Spirit teach me, then the scripture becomes clear and there is no contradiction.

Honestly the Lord is still teaching me. Like Paul said, now I know in part, but then will I know even as I am known.

I've found when I don't fully understand something, then it's best to be honest and say so. Not just fall in with the crowd or come up with some type of fill in the blanks back story that's not supported by scripture. Instead, I know that I need to put more prayer and study into it and let the Holy Spirit guide me in understanding scriptures.

GaryA · Dec 12, 2021

Charlie24 said:

"I see what you did there..."

GaryA · Dec 12, 2021

Charlie24 said:

Still - you did not frame it according to the post-trib view.

Laura798 · Dec 12, 2021

peldom10 said:

Be tolerant with disagreement.

I did not say you did not post references. I said they do not support your position. I see many posting of references which do not support the contentions.
The reference to Christ and 1000 years is proof thaat you are wrong.
Your thought that Christ is now reigning during a 2000 year period is weird. With all the sin, conflict. moral decay, etc...we are now
seeing and to conclude that is a reign of Christ on earth is without scriptural basis.....whatsoever.
end of comment from this end. I again suggest you to give it a second look....because you are wrong.[/QUOTE]

And I neglected to address this one when You said: "With all the sin, conflict. moral decay, etc...we are now seeing and to conclude that is a reign of Christ on earth is without scriptural basis.....whatsoever."

The Coming of the Kingdom
"When asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, “Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.--Luke 17:20-21

You, similar to the Jews, are seeking an earthly ruler to make our present earth a ‘paradise’, but that will never happen on this present earth; paradise only comes after this earth is destroyed. Jesus’ reign on the present earth is in the hearts of believers who accept him as Messiah–it is a spiritual reign–in the light of eternity, the suffering and trouble on this earth are a ‘blink of an eye’. Jesus said in Luke this kingdom was not something tangible, rather–the kingdom was in their midst. “My kingdom is not of this world.” His reign on this earth is in the heart of every believer! “I have told you these things, so that in me you may have peace. In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world.”--John 16:3

Benson Commentary on Daniel 2:44-45, Christ's Kingdom

Daniel 2:44-45. And in the days of these kings — That is, kingdoms, or during the succession of these four monarchies; and it must be during the time of the last of them, because they are reckoned four in succession, and consequently this must be the fifth kingdom. Shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom — This can only be understood with propriety, as the ancients understood it, of the kingdom of Christ. Accordingly, his kingdom was set up during the days of the last of these kingdoms, that is, the Roman. The stone was totally a different thing from the image; and the kingdom of Christ is totally different from the kingdoms of this world. The stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, as our heavenly body is said (2 Corinthians 5:1) to be a building of God, a house not made with hands, that is, spiritual, as the phrase is used in other places.

https://biblehub.com/commentaries/daniel/2-44.htm

Laura798 · Dec 12, 2021

Christ On David's Throne
by David Padfield
Premillennialists claim that one day our Lord will return to this earth for the purpose of establishing His kingdom. They further claim that He will sit and rule "on the throne of David" in Jerusalem for 1,000 years. The truth of the matter is that at this very moment, Christ is King of kings and Lord of lords, and He is now reigning from heaven "on the throne of David." If we can prove that Christ is now "on the throne of David," the entire theory of premillennialism falls to pieces.

God's Promise To David
King David of Israel, was a man after God's own heart (Acts 13:22). Before his death, God made several promises to him. "When your days are fulfilled and you rest with your fathers, I will set up your seed after you, who will come from your body, and I will establish his kingdom. He shall build a house for My name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever. I will be his Father, and he shall be My son. If he commits iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men and with the blows of the sons of men. But My mercy shall not depart from him, as I took it from Saul, whom I removed from before you. And your house and your kingdom shall be established forever before you. Your throne shall be established forever." (2 Sa. 7:12-16).

This promise to David can be summarized by four main points: 1) David's seed would be set upon the throne, 2) it would happen after David's death, 3) God would establish this throne, and 4) this one would build God's house. These promises were fulfilled by Jesus Christ, the son of David, when He ascended into heaven to sit at God's right hand.....

Whose Throne Is It?
Premillennialists often claim that Christ is now on the "throne of God" but not on the "throne of David." However, a study of the Old Testament reveals that these are one in the same.

During the time of Samuel, the people of Israel desired to no longer be ruled by a judge but by a king. The sin of the people was not just that they wanted to be "like all the nations" around them, as I sometimes hear brethren preach in ignorance. Their sin was that they had rejected Jehovah as their king. "And the Lord said to Samuel, 'Heed the voice of the people in all that they say to you; for they have not rejected you, but they have rejected Me, that I should not reign over them.'" (1 Sam. 8:7).

God had long ago promised that kings would rule Israel. Just before his death, Jacob promised his son Judah that kings would come from him. "The scepter shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh comes; and to Him shall be the obedience of the people" (Gen. 49:10). Moses had even instructed the people on the duties and behavior of kings before the people entered the promised land (Deut. 17:14-20).

The point is that when God allowed Israel to have a king over them, that king was ruling Israel in place of God.

you can read the rest here: https://www.padfield.com/2000/christ-on-david's-throne.html

ewq1938 · Dec 12, 2021

Charlie24 said:

That isn't from Pre-trib and it isn't correct anyways. Anyone that is saved who survives the Great Tribulation will be changed into an immortal:

1Co 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1Co 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

ewq1938 · Dec 12, 2021

DavidTree said:

Charlie believes all the unsaved mortals are cast into the lake of fire at the second coming. He thinks the saved mortals will remain mortal and they are the only mortals that enter the thousand years and have children.

What he doesn't understand or know that all the saved mortals will be changed into immortals and immortals do not marry so no childbirth.

peldom10 · Dec 12, 2021

Nehemiah6 said:

No, all the dead are NOT asleep in the ground at all, and we do NOT see that clearly. Just the burrowing animals which hibernate in winter. The discredited Soul Sleep doctrine is primarily from the cults, along with their package of false teachings.

The true Bible doctrine is that (1) all the saints (OT and NT) are presently in Heaven within the New Jerusalem (Heb 12:22-24) while (2) all the unsaved souls are in Hades awaiting their final judgment.

"Sleep" is a metaphor for physical death, so when the corpse is placed in the grave, it gives the appearance sleeping. But the souls and spirits of those who are in Christ go to Heaven immediately upon death, for to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord in Heaven. The death of Stephen is the best example.

And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit. And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep. (Acts 7:59,60)

So let's ask ourselves a few questions:
1. Did Stephen literally see Christ standing at the right hand of God? YES
2. Did Jesus literally receive his spirit upon his death? YES
3. Did Stephen literally fall asleep after being stoned mercilessly? NO
4. Does the next chapter show that Stephen was literally buried? YES

So Laura, please tell us to which cult you belong, since you have embraced the unbiblical Soul Sleep doctrine?

It appears you are not applying this fact...there is no time in the spirit world.
So from the time of death to the 2nd advent of Christ is....instant. NO TIME.

Nehemiah6 · Dec 12, 2021

peldom10 said:

Where is that stated in the Bible? Time is applicable to all until there is time no more.

ewq1938 · Dec 12, 2021

peldom10 said:

Nehemiah6 said:

Both of you are wrong. There is never "no time" Time has existed as long as God has and will exist forever.

Rev_10:6 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:

The "time will stop existing" theory is based on misunderstanding the archaic KJV wording. Here "time no longer" simply means there will no longer be a delay before certain events begin to occur not that time somehow actually stops. Scripture never claims that time ends in fact the eternity is never ending time and there is a new fruit on the tree of life every month (30 days of time).

Eph 3:21 Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.

World here is AION which is an age or period of time. Usually it speaks of an everlasting period of time. Here the verse not only uses AION but adds "without end" to make clear time never ends for overcomers.

GaryA · Dec 12, 2021

God alone exists outside of Time - for He created it - for the sake of His creation.

Every creature that is part of His creation will experience time for as long as they exist.

(Please understand the context.)

ewq1938 · Dec 12, 2021

GaryA said:

I look at that differently. He isn't "outside of time" he is "unaffected" by time. He is called the ancient of days because he has experienced an uncountable amount of time.

AworkINprogress · Dec 12, 2021

Laura798 said:

😂

GaryA · Dec 12, 2021

ewq1938 said:

He experiences "all time at the same time all the time" - in a way that is unique to Him.

He is "outside of time" in the sense that:

"At one time there was no time."

(i.e. - it did not exist until He created it)

That is the way I look at it.

Laura798 · Dec 12, 2021

ewq1938 said:

God is eternal, therefore exists outside of time. I watched a science program once about time and they did a calculation which is too complex to explain but to put it simply--theoretically if you've moved far enough out into space time would cease to exist.

Eternal: lasting or existing forever; without end or beginning. (if no beginning and no end, then timeless/without time)

First of all how do we even have time? Genesis 1 says, "And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day." And how do bible scholars measure how old the universe is? They started counting from the first day of Creation.

Revelations says that there will be no Sun and no night in God's new creation. we will also be living in eternity, therefore time will cease to exist.

"There will be no more night. They will not need the light of a lamp or the light of the sun, for the Lord God will give them light. And they will reign for ever and ever."

And as earlier mentioned when a person is dead they have no sense of time passing so we will experience going from death to being with Christ as if we are waking from a deep sleep--the bible says in a 'twinkling of an eye' we will rise with our incorruptible bodies. Imagine that!

DavidTree · Dec 13, 2021

Laura798 said:

Good Morning Laura,

Dear Lord Jesus Christ, we thank you for today, bless our hearts in you for all that Your Word declares - Amen.

This question can be answered from Scripture and is essential for us to know the answer:

"How does Christ who is in Heaven, bring with Him the Saints who have died and there bodies are in the Graves???"

How the Pre-Trib Rapture Became Popular in the Modern Church

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