Saved by Water

[FreeGrace2]

[QUOTE="Wansvic, post: 4728931, member: 277938"
“...God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.[/quote]
What translation did this come from? The original Greek text says "saved THROUGH water".

Please how you think that Noah was "saved BY water". The ark kept Noah SAFE FROM WATER. It was the rest of humanity on earth that were killed BY WATER.

Please get your facts straight before making such HUGE mistakes.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Don't allow the new age religion types to influence you.....: ........ " believeth in Him shall receive remission of sins".....has nothing to do with the requirement of water baptism. Except that...we must believe before repentance and baptism for...repentance and baptism to be meaningful.

No. It is clear from Acts 11:13-15 that Cornelius and household believed the gospel message from Peter, were saved, and received the Holy Spirit ALL BEFORE Peter baptized any of them.

In fact, Peter DIDN'T baptize anyone UNTIL he was convinced they were saved and had the Spirit.

Acts 10-
43 All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.”
44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message.
45 The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on Gentiles.
46 For they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God. Then Peter said,
47 “Surely no one can stand in the way of their being baptized with water. They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have.”

If this passage doesn't lead you to a heartfelt REPENTANCE of your false beliefs, then nothing will.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Baptism is required...why do you disavow that in scriptures?

Because Scripture disavows that.

Acts 10-
43 All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.” NOT THROUGH BAPTISM. THROUGH HIS NAME.
44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message.
45 The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on Gentiles.
46 For they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God. Then Peter said,
47 “Surely no one can stand in the way of their being baptized with water. They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have.”

What is clear in this passage is that Cornelius and household all were SAVED and received the Holy Spirit BEFORE Peter baptized any of them.

In fact, from v.45 and v.47 Peter didn't baptize anyone UNTIL he was convinced that they all were saved and had the Spirit.

Totally wrecks your theology.

 

[FreeGrace2]

WOW...carry that thru...;
where do you see repentance in that verse?
Were do you see ....maintain until the end..... in that verse?
Where do you see over 50 some commandments in that verse?, etc.

They are NOT there, obvously.

Are you saying they are of no consequence?

I am saying none of all that is required for salvation. Since salvation is by grace and NOT by works, none of what you mention will save anyone. Those who rely on such a list are trying to get saved apart from grace. That ain't gonna work.

Baptism is required.

It is required for obedience, but NOT required for salvation.

Start with acts 2;38 and respond to it or you have been relegated to the new age religion group.

I already have, several times. That verse was given to THAT specific crowd, who had seen the miracles of Jesus, seen prophecy fulfilled, and yet partipated in His crucifixion. They needed to do what Peter said.

So that verse was for them only.

Cornelius refutes your insistence about Acts 2:38. He was saved and received the Holy Spirit BEFORE he was water baptized.

In fact, Peter didn't baptize anyone UNTIL he was convinced they were saved and had the Spirit.

Acts 10
43 All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.” NO WATER HERE
44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message.
45 The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on Gentiles.
46 For they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God. Then Peter said,
47 “Surely no one can stand in the way of their being baptized with water. They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have.”

 

[FreeGrace2]

Cornelius was saved AND received the Holy Spirit and was then baptized by Peter ONLY AFTER he was convinced that Cornelius and household WAS saved and had the Spirit.

Totally wrong

Acts 10
43 All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.” NO WATER HERE
44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message.
45 The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on Gentiles.
46 For they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God. Then Peter said,
47 “Surely no one can stand in the way of their being baptized with water. They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have.”

How are any of these verses wrong? Please advise.

1Peter 3; 21....The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ. kjv:

Sure. Quote the antiquated and rather unclear KJV.
New International Version
and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
Berean Study Bible
And this water symbolizes the baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body, but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God—through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
International Standard Version
Baptism, which is symbolized by that water, now saves you also, not by removing dirt from the body, but by asking God for a clear conscience based on the resurrection of Jesus, the Messiah,
New Heart English Bible
This is a symbol of baptism, which now saves you--not the removal of dirt from the body, but an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
World English Bible
This is a symbol of baptism, which now saves you--not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

John3;5......Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. (KJV)

Nic at nite couldn't possibly have understood anything about Christian water baptism, since at that time, only the baptism of John was done, a baptism of repentance. So "born of water" refers to human birth.

Jesus spoke of 2 births in v.5; physical birth and spiritual birth. iow, one must be born and born again to enter the kingdom of God.

Matt. 3;14........But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me?

Clearly John was asking for the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

Matt; 28;18-29......And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying,
All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. kjv

The order is clear: making disciples is evangelism, and what follows is water baptism, as an act of obedience and experiential sanctification.

Plus Acts 2;38

The account of Acts 10:43-47 refutes your application of Acts 2:38 to anyone outside that crowd.

 

[JBTN]

Because Scripture disavows that.

Acts 10-
43 All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.” NOT THROUGH BAPTISM. THROUGH HIS NAME.
44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message.
45 The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on Gentiles.
46 For they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God. Then Peter said,
47 “Surely no one can stand in the way of their being baptized with water. They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have.”

What is clear in this passage is that Cornelius and household all were SAVED and received the Holy Spirit BEFORE Peter baptized any of them.

In fact, from v.45 and v.47 Peter didn't baptize anyone UNTIL he was convinced that they all were saved and had the Spirit.

Totally wrecks your theology.

Here is another inspired verse that has to be true.

“Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God, and everyone who loves the Father loves whoever has been born of him.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭5:1‬ ‭ESV‬‬
https://bible.com/bible/59/1jn.5.1.ESV

This verse is one reason that I don’t see any way the water in John 3:5 can be water baptism. If everyone who believes has already been born of God, then he timing for water baptism can’t work as a condition for being born again. Therefore the water refers to something else.

 

[KelbyofGod]

Precious Kelby, thanks for your request, and Also For "reading some on
the links." Most by now would have called them heresy. I will try to:

Summarize (condense) the previous summary, like this:

God Has TWO Different programs:
1) prophecy/law requires water baptism for the remission of sins!

2) Mystery/GRACE has NO water baptism At All; God's ONE Baptism
Being "BY" HIS ONE Holy Spirit (Ephesians 4:5; 1 Corinthians 12:13)

Amen?

Thanks for the reply. I appreciate the shortened summary.

I personally see water baptism for the remission of sins being by promise rather than by Law. But I understand where you're coming from in terms of the TWO Different programs (as you see it).

And I somewhat grasp your position regarding Mystery/GRACE being ushered in by Paul (if I understood the part of the link I read correctly). but I disagree with the conclusion that water baptism was cancelled in Ephesians. I'll explain why...

And this is why the play-by-play accounts are so important in the book of Acts. We get to test our interpretations against simple actions of the apostles and the Holy Spirit to see if they hold up.

It was in EPHESUS (Acts 19) that Paul encountered believing disciples. And after questioning their status of 1) Have they received the Holy Ghost...and 2) Have they received the correct water baptism... Instead of telling them "There is only spirit baptism now", Paul promptly UPDATED their understanding regarding water baptism, and water baptized them the name of Jesus. Then, because he knew that they still needed to receive the Holy Spirit, Paul laid hands on them and they received the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

Conclusion: I don't see Paul doing away with water baptism at Ephesus / in Ephesians.

Yes, I understand that is just a practical argument, but what Paul did in practice seems a good way to understand what he was actually saying in doctrine.

Love in Jesus,
Kelby

 

[justbyfaith]

The scripture you reference does not contradict the fact that sins are remitted in water baptism. The verse confirms the truth. Notice the scripture states that it is through the name of Jesus that believers sins are remitted. Afterward Peter actually commands the group to be water baptized in the name of the Lord in verses 47-48. Their obedience to the command is what brought about remission of their sin as confirmed elsewhere in scripture.

But it seems to contradict the idea that sins are only remitted in water baptism. The verse in question appears to say to us that believing is all that is needed to obtain the remission of sins.

 

[justbyfaith]

Your reliance on Acts 2:38 is a huge mistake. That verse isn't for you. It was only for that crowd plus the Gentiles who saw Jesus' miracles, His fulfilling of prophecy, and then took part in His crucifixion.

That is an unbiblical statement (see Acts 2:39).

 

[justbyfaith]

This is called positional sanctification.

Also known as "justification".

 

[justbyfaith]

I have refuted your flawed and misunderstanding of both Acts 2:38 and 39.

You have not.

 

[justbyfaith]

I never called Him that. Your posts seem to suggest rather clearly that God is capable of being irrational. So it's YOUR view that makes God capable of irrational actions.

Since my view is correct; and you purport that in my view God is irrational, you are purporting that the correct view of God intimates Him as being irrational. Therefore, in your view, the correct view of God sets Him forth as irrational. And therefore God is irrational in your view; not mine.

 

[justbyfaith]

In fact, all the contradictions are found in your views. And they can't be reconciled with Scripture.

I see no contradiction between my view and holy scripture.

Perhaps you should ask the Lord to show you how my view coincides with holy scripture. Because I believe that He will do it if you sincerely ask Him to do so.

 

[justbyfaith]

1 Cor 6:11 - And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

1 Thess 5:23,24
23 May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through. May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
24 The one who calls you is faithful, and he will do it.

In the first verse, "you were washed" equals salvation. The next part is about positional sanctification, which follows salvation.

In the next 2 verses, v23 speaks of spiritual growth, or what is called "experiential sanctification". Notice the subjunctive mood in "may your whole spirit, soul and body...". That shows that experiential sanctification is potential, not a guarantee.

Here is a verse on experiential sanctification:

1 peter 2:2 - Like newborn babies, crave pure spiritual milk, so that by it you may grow up in your salvation

"positional sanctification" is simply none other than justification; and when the Holy Spirit wants to speak of it He will say "justification".

When He speaks of sanctification He is speaking of something that is practical in the life of the believer.

1 Thessalonians 5:23-24 teaches us clearly that a person can be sanctified wholly and preserved blameless unto (kjv) the coming of our Lord Jesus.

I think that a part of the reason why your theology is flawed might be because you have rejected the kjv and have heaped up for yourself (in the translators of other versions) teachers to tell you what your itching ears want to hear (2 Timothy 4:3).

 

[justbyfaith]

Let's not keep trying to change the goal posts. John's baptism was NOT Christian baptism, therefore, what Jesus told Nic at nite couldn't possibly be a reference to it.

And I gave you a lengthy explanation with website info to look it up for yourself.

John's baptism prepared the hearts of the people for the coming of Christ. Luke 7:29-30.

 

[justbyfaith]

“...God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.[~/quote]
What translation did this come from?

The kjv.

 

[justbyfaith]

Because Scripture disavows that.

Acts 10-
43 All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.” NOT THROUGH BAPTISM. THROUGH HIS NAME.
44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message.
45 The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on Gentiles.
46 For they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God. Then Peter said,
47 “Surely no one can stand in the way of their being baptized with water. They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have.”

What is clear in this passage is that Cornelius and household all were SAVED and received the Holy Spirit BEFORE Peter baptized any of them.

In fact, from v.45 and v.47 Peter didn't baptize anyone UNTIL he was convinced that they all were saved and had the Spirit.

Totally wrecks your theology.

However, the contention is that remission of sins and receiving the Holy Ghost are two different aspects of salvation;

And that Cornelius and friends received the Holy Ghost when they spake in tongues but did not receive remission of sins until they were baptized in water.

 

[justbyfaith]

I already have, several times. That verse was given to THAT specific crowd, who had seen the miracles of Jesus, seen prophecy fulfilled, and yet partipated in His crucifixion. They needed to do what Peter said.

So that verse was for them only.

Acts 2:39 tells us that the promise was to them and to their children and to all that were afar off.

You are going to have to get some white out or scissors and apply them to the verse if you are going to honestly keep saying what you keep saying.

For it is clear to me that you are in denial of what is taught by holy scripture (in Acts 2:39).

 

[KelbyofGod]

Acts 2:39 tells us that the promise was to them and to their children and to all that were afar off.

You keep forgetting to include "Even as many as the lord our God shall call" which includes everyone with a hope of entering in.

And obviously, that's not a rebuke. just additional truth that supports your point.

Love in Jesus,
Kelby

 

[justbyfaith]

Acts 10
43 All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.” NO WATER HERE
44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message.
45 The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on Gentiles.
46 For they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God. Then Peter said,
47 “Surely no one can stand in the way of their being baptized with water. They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have.”

How are any of these verses wrong? Please advise.

Cornelius and friends were a part of the transitional period in Acts wherein the circumcision group was at that time opposed to Gentiles being included in the faith of Christianity. I believe that God forced the issue with them by proving that, at the very least, Gentiles could be filled with the Holy Ghost as the original disciples were at the beginning. Thus God supernaturally acted to include Gentiles in the body of Christ. If they had not spoken in tongues, those who were of the circumcision group would have forbidden water. But because the Holy Ghost fell on Cornelius and friends, and they spake with other tongues, they could not forbid water.

Thus the issue with them may have indeed been an exception to the rule; the rule being found in Acts 2:38-39.