Soul sleep is a false doctrine
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That's not a resurrection of the just. All the just, all the dead in Christ rise just before the rapture. The only dead left are those unworthy of the first resurrection who are the unrighteous dead.
There are no righteous from among these dead:
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, STAND before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Notice they are still described as being dead despite having been resurrected and standing. Despite being physically alive, they are spiritually dead.
The term "in Christ" only applies to Christians. Abraham, Moses, et al, were certainly believers, but they were not Christian.
All Christians, whether dead or alive, will be gathered to Christ at the rapture (1 Cor 15:51ff and 1 Thes 4:13ff), which will precede the trib. The resurrection of the just, AKA the "first" resurrection, will happen at the end of the trib, as Christ is setting up the millennial kingdom (Rev 20:4ff).
There will be both saved and unsaved people at the second resurrection and white throne judgment. There will be natural people in the millennial kingdom. They will procreate, and die. Many of them will be in the second resurrection at the end of the MK.
Everyone not previously raised and judged will be raised and judged. The saved will receive everlasting life, the unsaved will be thrown into the lake of fire.
All Christians, whether dead or alive, will be gathered to Christ at the rapture (1 Cor 15:51ff and 1 Thes 4:13ff), which will precede the trib. The resurrection of the just, AKA the "first" resurrection, will happen at the end of the trib, as Christ is setting up the millennial kingdom (Rev 20:4ff).
There will be both saved and unsaved people at the second resurrection and white throne judgment. There will be natural people in the millennial kingdom. They will procreate, and die. Many of them will be in the second resurrection at the end of the MK.
Everyone not previously raised and judged will be raised and judged. The saved will receive everlasting life, the unsaved will be thrown into the lake of fire.
I don’t agree with that interpretation because I believe the spirit returns to God and the body returns to dust. The dead bodies aren’t really sleeping, they’re just bones. Given enough time bones will just turn to dust; that’s scriptural.
Ecclesiastes 12:7
7Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
That means that the spirits of people are with God.
Now that we know for certain the spirit of a person returns to God when they die, don’t you think that the spirit must be returned to the person to resurrect them?
The spirit of the people who have died are being returned to them in 1 Thessalonians 4:14:
14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
There’s no way around it now. The verses you quoted are about resurrection.
The dead in Christ being the first to rise means that they’ll be resurrected before the living are raptured up together with them to meet the Lord in the air.
Ecclesiastes 12:7
7Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
That means that the spirits of people are with God.
Now that we know for certain the spirit of a person returns to God when they die, don’t you think that the spirit must be returned to the person to resurrect them?
The spirit of the people who have died are being returned to them in 1 Thessalonians 4:14:
14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
There’s no way around it now. The verses you quoted are about resurrection.
The dead in Christ being the first to rise means that they’ll be resurrected before the living are raptured up together with them to meet the Lord in the air.
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“That verse does not mention soul…”
So your belief is that since soul isn’t mentioned that resurrected saints don’t have a soul? That’s what you’re implying.
Sometimes something is inferred because it’s stated elsewhere in the Bible. When you say such things it really hurts your already crumbling position as a critic of soul sleep.
The spirit leaves the body and returns to God when a person dies. The spirit returns back to the person when they’re resurrected. I know you’re aware of Ecclesiastes 12:7 so you don’t have a sound point.
Your strategy is to compare me to pre-tribbers to undermine my credibility because the Bible has refuted your false doctrine.
So your belief is that since soul isn’t mentioned that resurrected saints don’t have a soul? That’s what you’re implying.
Sometimes something is inferred because it’s stated elsewhere in the Bible. When you say such things it really hurts your already crumbling position as a critic of soul sleep.
The spirit leaves the body and returns to God when a person dies. The spirit returns back to the person when they’re resurrected. I know you’re aware of Ecclesiastes 12:7 so you don’t have a sound point.
Your strategy is to compare me to pre-tribbers to undermine my credibility because the Bible has refuted your false doctrine.
Isaiah 14
Easy-to-Read Version
Israel Will Return Home
14 The Lord will again show his love to Jacob. He will again choose the people of Israel. He will give them their land. Then the non-Israelites[a] will join the Israelites, and both will become one family—Jacob’s family. 2 Those nations will bring the Israelites back to their land. The men and women from the other nations will become slaves to Israel. In the past, those people forced the Israelites to become their slaves. But in the future the Israelites will defeat those nations, and Israel will then rule over them in the Lord’s land. 3 In the past, you were slaves. People forced you to work hard. But the Lord will take away the hard work you were forced to do.
A Song About the King of Babylon
4 At that time you will begin to sing this song about the king of Babylon:
The king was cruel when he ruled us,
but now his rule is finished.
5 The Lord breaks the scepter of evil rulers;
he takes away their power.
6 In anger, the king of Babylon beat the people.
He never stopped beating them.
He was an evil ruler who ruled in anger.
He never stopped hurting people.
7 But now, the whole country rests and is quiet.
Now the people begin to celebrate.
8 You were an evil king,
and now you are finished.
Even the pine trees are happy.
The cedar trees of Lebanon rejoice.
They say, “The king chopped us down,
but now the king has fallen,
and he will never stand again.”
9 The place of death is excited
that you are coming.
Sheol is waking the spirits
of all the leaders of the earth for you.
Sheol is making the kings stand up
from their thrones to meet you.
10 They will make fun of you, saying,
“Now you are as dead as we are.
Now you are just like us.”
11 Your pride has been sent down to Sheol.
The music from your harps announces the coming of your proud spirit.
Maggots will be the bed you lie on,
and other worms will cover your body like a blanket.
Easy-to-Read Version
Israel Will Return Home
14 The Lord will again show his love to Jacob. He will again choose the people of Israel. He will give them their land. Then the non-Israelites[a] will join the Israelites, and both will become one family—Jacob’s family. 2 Those nations will bring the Israelites back to their land. The men and women from the other nations will become slaves to Israel. In the past, those people forced the Israelites to become their slaves. But in the future the Israelites will defeat those nations, and Israel will then rule over them in the Lord’s land. 3 In the past, you were slaves. People forced you to work hard. But the Lord will take away the hard work you were forced to do.
A Song About the King of Babylon
4 At that time you will begin to sing this song about the king of Babylon:
The king was cruel when he ruled us,
but now his rule is finished.
5 The Lord breaks the scepter of evil rulers;
he takes away their power.
6 In anger, the king of Babylon beat the people.
He never stopped beating them.
He was an evil ruler who ruled in anger.
He never stopped hurting people.
7 But now, the whole country rests and is quiet.
Now the people begin to celebrate.
8 You were an evil king,
and now you are finished.
Even the pine trees are happy.
The cedar trees of Lebanon rejoice.
They say, “The king chopped us down,
but now the king has fallen,
and he will never stand again.”
9 The place of death is excited
that you are coming.
Sheol is waking the spirits
of all the leaders of the earth for you.
Sheol is making the kings stand up
from their thrones to meet you.
10 They will make fun of you, saying,
“Now you are as dead as we are.
Now you are just like us.”
11 Your pride has been sent down to Sheol.
The music from your harps announces the coming of your proud spirit.
Maggots will be the bed you lie on,
and other worms will cover your body like a blanket.
THINK about what you said here: "The spirit of the people who have died are being returned to them in 1 Thessalonians 4:14: "
Think about this and see if you can see........
AND
The SCRIPTURE, GOD says that the Dead bodies that returned back to dust = is that which is SLEEPING in the EARTH/DUST
Your dead will live; their bodies will rise.
Awake and sing, you who dwell in the dust!
For your dew is like the dew of the morning,
and the earth will bring forth her dead.
And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
Think about this and see if you can see........
AND
The SCRIPTURE, GOD says that the Dead bodies that returned back to dust = is that which is SLEEPING in the EARTH/DUST
Your dead will live; their bodies will rise.
Awake and sing, you who dwell in the dust!
For your dew is like the dew of the morning,
and the earth will bring forth her dead.
And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
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SHEOL is not the dust of the earth. SHEOL is the place where the spirits of the unsaved currently are - FULLY AWARE.
The place of death is excited
that you are coming.
Sheol is waking the spirits
of all the leaders of the earth for you.
Sheol is making the kings stand up
from their thrones to meet you.
10 They will make fun of you, saying,
“Now you are as dead as we are.
Now you are just like us.”
11 Your pride has been sent down to Sheol.
Our bodies return to dust and our spirits go to one of two places = SHEOL/HADES or HEAVEN
For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that everyone who believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through Him.
Whoever believes in Him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe has already been condemned, because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.
No. What I am saying is the verse does not mention a soul being asleep because the word soul is not used. It only speaks of those who are asleep, and that means those who are dead.
Nothing has affected that I and others have shown soul sleep to not be biblical. It misunderstands that sleep can refer to death, and one proof text has rest not sleep, and it is speaking about souls of dead who are complaining and they are told to rest as in rest from doing that. So is literally no biblical support for any soul to actually fall asleep like humans do.
And not a single verse to support that idea.
I mention that because you can see how there is no biblical support for pre-trib yet they think there is. It is same for soul sleep. There is no biblical support but a strong belief makes people see it in verses that actually don't contain any support of it.
If people wish to believe the first lie of Satan and the evil theory of pagan nations they can. It is their choice.
The dead know nothing.
The theory that the dead are not really dead is a lie of the devil. The theory that the soul separates and continues to live is not found in the bible.
The dead know nothing.
The theory that the dead are not really dead is a lie of the devil. The theory that the soul separates and continues to live is not found in the bible.
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Except here:
Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
The souls are not dead. Only the bodies of the souls of the dead are dead.
Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
The souls are not dead. Only the bodies of the souls of the dead are dead.
That was a vision given to John, telling him it would be a while before the dead are resurrected.
What's a disembodied spirit (or soul) going to do with a white robe?
You have that one verse you're hanging your hat on. What about all the other verses that describe the state of death?
What's a disembodied spirit (or soul) going to do with a white robe?
You have that one verse you're hanging your hat on. What about all the other verses that describe the state of death?
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Yes by Adam we all are to die. Death, Death can be called sleep because we will be(have the promise of) waking up, Death is a sleep, rest in the grave. The bible is clear that we know nothing during that time.
The raise saints will spend 1000 years with Christ in heaven. If we are already in heaven as spirits the time will be different for all, but if the day of comes when the saints are all raised together the time will start at the same time.
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive 1 Cor ch15
Shall be made alive = notice it dose not say are made alive when they die. The time when life starts is in the future for the dead.
It will be a second for Adam and Eve from the time they died to the time they are raised, It will be a second for Abraham and for king David, and for the Peter and John the Baptist and for Paul and marten Luther, it will be a second for all from death until the resurrection because there is no consciousness in death. Like sleep we go to bed and it is like a second when we wake up in the morning.
Isa 38:16 O Lord, by these things men live, and in all these things is the life of my spirit: so wilt thou recover me, and make me to live.
Isa 38:17 Behold, for peace I had great bitterness: but thou hast in love to my soul delivered it from the pit of corruption: for thou hast cast all my sins behind thy back.
Isa 38:18 For the grave cannot praise thee, death can not celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth.
Isa 38:19 The living, the living, he shall praise thee, as I do this day: the father to the children shall make known thy truth.
Psa 89:48 What man is he that liveth, and shall not see death? shall he deliver his soul from the hand of the grave? Selah.
“The living know that they will die; but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward, for the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, their hatred, and their envy have now perished; nevermore will they have a share in anything done under the sun. … There is no work or device or knowledge or wisdom in the grave where you are going” (Ecclesiastes 9:5, 6, 10).
“The dead do not praise the Lord” (Psalm 115:17).
the dead do not praise the lord and that includes the soul and every part of the person.
The raise saints will spend 1000 years with Christ in heaven. If we are already in heaven as spirits the time will be different for all, but if the day of comes when the saints are all raised together the time will start at the same time.
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive 1 Cor ch15
Shall be made alive = notice it dose not say are made alive when they die. The time when life starts is in the future for the dead.
It will be a second for Adam and Eve from the time they died to the time they are raised, It will be a second for Abraham and for king David, and for the Peter and John the Baptist and for Paul and marten Luther, it will be a second for all from death until the resurrection because there is no consciousness in death. Like sleep we go to bed and it is like a second when we wake up in the morning.
Isa 38:16 O Lord, by these things men live, and in all these things is the life of my spirit: so wilt thou recover me, and make me to live.
Isa 38:17 Behold, for peace I had great bitterness: but thou hast in love to my soul delivered it from the pit of corruption: for thou hast cast all my sins behind thy back.
Isa 38:18 For the grave cannot praise thee, death can not celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth.
Isa 38:19 The living, the living, he shall praise thee, as I do this day: the father to the children shall make known thy truth.
Psa 89:48 What man is he that liveth, and shall not see death? shall he deliver his soul from the hand of the grave? Selah.
“The living know that they will die; but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward, for the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, their hatred, and their envy have now perished; nevermore will they have a share in anything done under the sun. … There is no work or device or knowledge or wisdom in the grave where you are going” (Ecclesiastes 9:5, 6, 10).
“The dead do not praise the Lord” (Psalm 115:17).
the dead do not praise the lord and that includes the soul and every part of the person.
could it be figurative like much of the Revelation is. The souls of the dead that are completely unconscious and completely dead are figuratively asking how long because all saints would want to come to be resurrected and be with Jesus, all that are alive ask how long until justice is served, So figuratively the unconscious would be asking as well if they were alive. If i was unconscious God knows what i would be asking, what i would be saying if i was alive. And Jesus said that the answer is rest for a season.
Please don't take offense, but it seems so often it is the case that the arguments of those who oppose SDA doctrine are fraught with inconsistency.
For instance, these claim the Rich Man and Lazarus is a literal story and "proves" dead saints -- which would include martyred saints -- are in literal Abraham's literal bosom in great comfort...but when we get over to Rev. 6, it's claimed these "souls under the altar" are still conscious dead saints imprisoned there greatly disturbed and calling out to be avenged - which is totally inconsistent with their interpretation of Luke 16. Clearly, there is symbolism, not literalism, at work in Revelation 6 (as is the case in Luke 16, but that's another debate).
What's the symbolism?
To answer, we have to ask: What exactly was under the altars of sacrifice?
The answer to that is blood, which would drip down as the animal was prepared and set ablaze. So, did the red and white corpuscles of Cain and these martyrs cry out in God's ears for vengeance? Of course not. Since "the life is in the blood", the phrase "souls under the altar" is a symbol for the blood of martyred saints invoking within the heart of God a desire to render justice against injustice. This isn't a picture of God having a conversation with dead saints at all, because that's impossible: Wise Solomon - as well as many other Biblical authors - have written "the dead know not anything", "the memory of them is forgotten", their emotions like "love, hate, and envy" are perished, "there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom" in the grave, the dead lie in "silence" and "darkness" and "forgetfulness" and the bomber is that they "praise not the Lord", which could not be said of dead saints if they were conscious in heaven.
For instance, these claim the Rich Man and Lazarus is a literal story and "proves" dead saints -- which would include martyred saints -- are in literal Abraham's literal bosom in great comfort...but when we get over to Rev. 6, it's claimed these "souls under the altar" are still conscious dead saints imprisoned there greatly disturbed and calling out to be avenged - which is totally inconsistent with their interpretation of Luke 16. Clearly, there is symbolism, not literalism, at work in Revelation 6 (as is the case in Luke 16, but that's another debate).
What's the symbolism?
To answer, we have to ask: What exactly was under the altars of sacrifice?
The answer to that is blood, which would drip down as the animal was prepared and set ablaze. So, did the red and white corpuscles of Cain and these martyrs cry out in God's ears for vengeance? Of course not. Since "the life is in the blood", the phrase "souls under the altar" is a symbol for the blood of martyred saints invoking within the heart of God a desire to render justice against injustice. This isn't a picture of God having a conversation with dead saints at all, because that's impossible: Wise Solomon - as well as many other Biblical authors - have written "the dead know not anything", "the memory of them is forgotten", their emotions like "love, hate, and envy" are perished, "there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom" in the grave, the dead lie in "silence" and "darkness" and "forgetfulness" and the bomber is that they "praise not the Lord", which could not be said of dead saints if they were conscious in heaven.