Does 1 Thessalonians 4:14-18 Teach Jesus Will Return With Dead Saints Now With Him In Heaven?
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I generally agree with what you’re saying. Those whose bodies have died have not actually died because they are spiritually alive in Christ. Therefore, when 1 Thessalonians 4:14 says there are those who are “asleep in Christ” that God will bring with Jesus, it is not referring to anyone who is dead.
God isn’t bringing with Christ anyone who is dead from Heaven nor is He bringing dead people from Earth to Heaven.
In this case, the “asleep in Christ” refers to those who are literally asleep, being moved across space, to Earth, to be resurrected.
This isn’t a SDA or JW doctrine, though sometimes cults can espouse Biblical doctrines; this is what 1 Thessalonians 4 literally says.
The OP posits that 1 Thessalonians 4 says something else based off an interpretation using a type of Hebrew poem called a chiasm. I believe that’s unlikely for a variety of reasons.
Welcome to the board by the way.
God isn’t bringing with Christ anyone who is dead from Heaven nor is He bringing dead people from Earth to Heaven.
In this case, the “asleep in Christ” refers to those who are literally asleep, being moved across space, to Earth, to be resurrected.
This isn’t a SDA or JW doctrine, though sometimes cults can espouse Biblical doctrines; this is what 1 Thessalonians 4 literally says.
The OP posits that 1 Thessalonians 4 says something else based off an interpretation using a type of Hebrew poem called a chiasm. I believe that’s unlikely for a variety of reasons.
Welcome to the board by the way.
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Living justified men, yes.
But, the Spirit of justified dead men, upon their death, returned to God exactly as it was when it issued forth and their bodies returned to dust (Ecclesiastes 12:7 KJV), and they - living souls - ceased to be as a consequence of this disunion (Genesis 2:7 KJV).
That's ultimately why 1 Thessalonians 4:14 KJV provides zero support for the idea that "Jesus is coming back and bringing with Him dead saints that have been alive in heaven with Him".
Hmmm...the dead are simultaneously alive? So, that's where the idea for zombies originated!!!!
But, the Spirit of justified dead men, upon their death, returned to God exactly as it was when it issued forth and their bodies returned to dust (Ecclesiastes 12:7 KJV), and they - living souls - ceased to be as a consequence of this disunion (Genesis 2:7 KJV).
That's ultimately why 1 Thessalonians 4:14 KJV provides zero support for the idea that "Jesus is coming back and bringing with Him dead saints that have been alive in heaven with Him".
Hmmm...the dead are simultaneously alive? So, that's where the idea for zombies originated!!!!
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It refers to nothing of the kind. Genesis 2:7 KJV is crystal clear that the Soul comes into existence as a consequence of the union of the Body and the Breath of Life, and the inescapable conclusion is that at death when the disunion occurs and the Spirit returns to God, the Body returns to dust, the Soul ceases to exist.
So, you're free to believe that nonsense all you want, but the Bible condemns is as such. Only God is immortal, but the devil told Eve we're immortal, the Greeks picked it up and taught at death the body shell drops off and the soul flies off, and professing Christians seem to prefer the lie of the devil over the truth of God: "YE SHALL SURELY DIE".
So, you're free to believe that nonsense all you want, but the Bible condemns is as such. Only God is immortal, but the devil told Eve we're immortal, the Greeks picked it up and taught at death the body shell drops off and the soul flies off, and professing Christians seem to prefer the lie of the devil over the truth of God: "YE SHALL SURELY DIE".
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I never said the soul cannot die. At this point you’re creating a straw man to attack and knock down rather than addressing the points I made. I agree the soul can die and be destroyed. See that? Had you just asked instead of putting words in my mouth we could have skipped this point and continued a discussion, but I suspect that isn’t what you wanted because your false doctrine is not easily defended using scripture; this is your attempt at deflection and distraction.
Your strategy is to try to put me on defense by gaslighting me into in an argument. Your failed attempt to derail this conversation backfired on you and only exposes you as incapable to maintain any form of Biblical consistency you claim to allegedly have.
I should have trusted my gut when I replied to this thread. As usual, you know everything and everyone who disagrees is wrong despite the evidence they present to the contrary. I’m out. Don’t bother replying.
Your strategy is to try to put me on defense by gaslighting me into in an argument. Your failed attempt to derail this conversation backfired on you and only exposes you as incapable to maintain any form of Biblical consistency you claim to allegedly have.
I should have trusted my gut when I replied to this thread. As usual, you know everything and everyone who disagrees is wrong despite the evidence they present to the contrary. I’m out. Don’t bother replying.
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Clarifying error is not adding to truth. Solomon says, "The living know that they shall die, but the dead know not anything." There is tons of Scripture proving the dead have ceased to be which are cast aside in order to establish as truth the lie of the serpent, "Ye shall not surely die".
I assure you, the safest place in town at midnight is the cemetery because those folks are as surely dead as God said they are, and the crooks and murderers who believe the lie of the serpent are too scared to even think about walking in those gates until after the sun comes up.
I assure you, the safest place in town at midnight is the cemetery because those folks are as surely dead as God said they are, and the crooks and murderers who believe the lie of the serpent are too scared to even think about walking in those gates until after the sun comes up.
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Below is an AMP Bible verse. The brackets are provided by AMP translators & add context to the KJ version I shared in post #25.
1 Thes 4:
16 For the Lord Himself will come down from heaven with a shout of command, with the voice of the archangel and with the [blast of the] trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and remain [on the earth] will simultaneously be caught up (raptured) together with them [the resurrected ones] in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord!
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1 Thessalonians+4&version=AMP
Final thought:
The Lord descends/come's down from heaven, 1st resurrects/calls-up believers that have died, then catches-up believers that are alive at this same moment in time. Both groups receive eternal incorruptible bodies. My belief is it's the New Jerusalem (the place Jesus went to prepare Jn 14:1-3) that these believers are caught-up/raptured to.
1 Thes 4:
16 For the Lord Himself will come down from heaven with a shout of command, with the voice of the archangel and with the [blast of the] trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and remain [on the earth] will simultaneously be caught up (raptured) together with them [the resurrected ones] in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord!
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1 Thessalonians+4&version=AMP
Final thought:
The Lord descends/come's down from heaven, 1st resurrects/calls-up believers that have died, then catches-up believers that are alive at this same moment in time. Both groups receive eternal incorruptible bodies. My belief is it's the New Jerusalem (the place Jesus went to prepare Jn 14:1-3) that these believers are caught-up/raptured to.
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When Jesus comes to take the dead in Christ and the living righteous home, it's at His Second Coming.
It's why we sing, "Oh, when the Saints go marching in, oh when the saints go marchin in...Oh how I want to be in the number when the Saints go marching in". We don't sing, "When the saint goes marching in, when he dies tons of money we spend, on his funeral so he can smile and grin, when the saint goes marchin in".
We we return after the 1,000 years is when the Second Resurrection takes place.
Again, "the living know that they shall die, but the dead know not anything" and Solomon's words are as surely part of the same "Scripture" as those Jesus commanded us to search in John 5:39 KJV.
It's why we sing, "Oh, when the Saints go marching in, oh when the saints go marchin in...Oh how I want to be in the number when the Saints go marching in". We don't sing, "When the saint goes marching in, when he dies tons of money we spend, on his funeral so he can smile and grin, when the saint goes marchin in".
We we return after the 1,000 years is when the Second Resurrection takes place.
Again, "the living know that they shall die, but the dead know not anything" and Solomon's words are as surely part of the same "Scripture" as those Jesus commanded us to search in John 5:39 KJV.
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No, but I can read analysis of Hebrew authorship. Maybe give it a try?
Hold on, let's not confuse the matter. Scripture is absolutely clear that the dead are dead, period, and in death there is no work, knowledge, wisdom, emotion, laying of plans, interaction with the living, praises offered to God, illumination, or even the slightest audible noise, OK? Even David is not ascended and if he ain't going the rest of us are in trouble. Want the verses? I got em.
Therefore, straining, stretching, and twisting of Scripture applies to those who OPPOSE the things written in the OP. Jesus can't bring conscious dead folks from heaven to earth because "the dead know not anything".
Hold on, let's not confuse the matter. Scripture is absolutely clear that the dead are dead, period, and in death there is no work, knowledge, wisdom, emotion, laying of plans, interaction with the living, praises offered to God, illumination, or even the slightest audible noise, OK? Even David is not ascended and if he ain't going the rest of us are in trouble. Want the verses? I got em.
Therefore, straining, stretching, and twisting of Scripture applies to those who OPPOSE the things written in the OP. Jesus can't bring conscious dead folks from heaven to earth because "the dead know not anything".
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It's mine too. I believe the Bible unequivocally teaches that at death, the Spirit returns to God exactly as it was when it came forth (which means no part of us hitches a ride: not our appearance, not the sound of our voice, our scent, our emotions, our memories, absolutely nothing), our body returns to the earth, and the Soul which is the "I", the "me", the "ego", the "self" - ceases to be until the one of the other of the two resurrections.
It's my prayer that those who operate under the delusion that the dead are not surely dead - that they're still alive in heaven or burning in hell at the moment, they are setting themselves up for the final massive spiritualism deception by "the spirits of devils working miracles". If we know that dead are dead, we will know that Marian apparitions, séance manifestations, grandpa's cane walking by itself through the house, every stripe and type of "paranormal activity" is the work of these deceiving spirits.
It's my prayer that those who operate under the delusion that the dead are not surely dead - that they're still alive in heaven or burning in hell at the moment, they are setting themselves up for the final massive spiritualism deception by "the spirits of devils working miracles". If we know that dead are dead, we will know that Marian apparitions, séance manifestations, grandpa's cane walking by itself through the house, every stripe and type of "paranormal activity" is the work of these deceiving spirits.
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Ecclesiastes 9:5 reads, “For the living know that they will die, / but the dead know nothing; / they have no further reward, / and even their name is forgotten.” This verse is sometimes used as a proof text for annihilationism, but that concept is not what is being communicated here. The “dead know nothing,” but in what way?
First, it is clear from other places in the Bible that this verse cannot mean the dead have absolutely no knowledge. For example, Matthew 25:46 speaks of everlasting consciousness: “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.” Every person will spend eternity with God in heaven or apart from Him in hell. Each person will have feelings, thoughts, and abilities that exist in eternity.
In fact, Luke 16:19–31 offers an example of human capabilities in the afterlife. Lazarus is in paradise in eternal joy, while the rich man is in torment in hell (called “Hades”). The rich man has feelings, can talk, and has the ability to remember, think, and reason.
Second, Ecclesiastes 9:5 cannot contradict Ecclesiastes 4:2. There, Solomon states that the dead are “happier than the living.” However, when a person is dead, the opportunities to enjoy things on earth no longer exist.
The key to understanding the statement “the dead know nothing” is found in the theme of the book of Ecclesiastes. Ecclesiastes is written specifically from an earthly perspective. The key phrase, repeated throughout the book, is under the sun, used about thirty times. Solomon is commenting on an earth-bound life, “under the sun,” without God. His conclusion, also repeated throughout the book, is that everything from that perspective is “vanity” or emptiness (Ecclesiastes 1:2).
When a person dies “under the sun,” the earthly perspective, without God, is that it’s over. He is no longer under the sun. There is no more knowledge to give or be given, just a grave to mark his remains. Those who have died have “no further reward” in this life; they no longer have the ability to enjoy life like those who are living. Eventually, “even their name is forgotten” (Ecclesiastes 9:5).
Ecclesiastes 9:5 displays a chiastic structure (ABBA format) like this:
A “For the living know that they will die,
B but the dead know nothing;
B they have no further reward,
A and even their name is forgotten.”
Lines 1 and 4 are parallel thoughts in the sense that the living know death is coming while those who remain after a person dies quickly forget those who have died. The second and third lines lay down associated ideas in parallel: the dead know nothing, and the dead can no longer enjoy or be rewarded for their activities in this life.
The saying “the dead know nothing” seems to be a negative sentiment, but it is not without a positive message. Solomon encourages his readers to live life to its fullest, knowing life is short. In the end, the fullest life is one that honors God and keeps His ways (Ecclesiastes 12:13–14).
First, it is clear from other places in the Bible that this verse cannot mean the dead have absolutely no knowledge. For example, Matthew 25:46 speaks of everlasting consciousness: “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.” Every person will spend eternity with God in heaven or apart from Him in hell. Each person will have feelings, thoughts, and abilities that exist in eternity.
In fact, Luke 16:19–31 offers an example of human capabilities in the afterlife. Lazarus is in paradise in eternal joy, while the rich man is in torment in hell (called “Hades”). The rich man has feelings, can talk, and has the ability to remember, think, and reason.
Second, Ecclesiastes 9:5 cannot contradict Ecclesiastes 4:2. There, Solomon states that the dead are “happier than the living.” However, when a person is dead, the opportunities to enjoy things on earth no longer exist.
The key to understanding the statement “the dead know nothing” is found in the theme of the book of Ecclesiastes. Ecclesiastes is written specifically from an earthly perspective. The key phrase, repeated throughout the book, is under the sun, used about thirty times. Solomon is commenting on an earth-bound life, “under the sun,” without God. His conclusion, also repeated throughout the book, is that everything from that perspective is “vanity” or emptiness (Ecclesiastes 1:2).
When a person dies “under the sun,” the earthly perspective, without God, is that it’s over. He is no longer under the sun. There is no more knowledge to give or be given, just a grave to mark his remains. Those who have died have “no further reward” in this life; they no longer have the ability to enjoy life like those who are living. Eventually, “even their name is forgotten” (Ecclesiastes 9:5).
Ecclesiastes 9:5 displays a chiastic structure (ABBA format) like this:
A “For the living know that they will die,
B but the dead know nothing;
B they have no further reward,
A and even their name is forgotten.”
Lines 1 and 4 are parallel thoughts in the sense that the living know death is coming while those who remain after a person dies quickly forget those who have died. The second and third lines lay down associated ideas in parallel: the dead know nothing, and the dead can no longer enjoy or be rewarded for their activities in this life.
The saying “the dead know nothing” seems to be a negative sentiment, but it is not without a positive message. Solomon encourages his readers to live life to its fullest, knowing life is short. In the end, the fullest life is one that honors God and keeps His ways (Ecclesiastes 12:13–14).
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The beliefs in the brackets [ ] were a post I quoted from the thread. They were a reply to OP I used to help explain why I asked the question (Why I asked if he was a JW or SDA). That isn’t what I said but what the OP replied to someone else. The OP poster’s name didn’t come up in the quote for some reason..I will have to fix that so it makes more sense.
And thanks!
EDIT: I attached a picture of the post I’m talking about that I tried to quote in the brackets. I couldn’t edit the post from earlier anymore.
And thanks!
EDIT: I attached a picture of the post I’m talking about that I tried to quote in the brackets. I couldn’t edit the post from earlier anymore.
Attachments
Yes, I agree. There are plenty of DEAD who surely will die. I also understand that the DEAD, be they walking around in the flesh or their dead flesh having been gone back to dust don't KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT LIFE AKA THE LORD.
Luke 9:59 And he said unto another, Follow me. But he said, Lord, suffer me first to go and bury my father.
Luke 9:60 Jesus said unto him, Let the dead bury their dead: but go thou and preach the kingdom of God.
I believe the 'perception' of what is being said is where our beliefs differ here. I am familiar with and have this knowledge but would grow from there and so to did this I also believe...
Ecclesiastes 9:1 For all this I considered in my heart even to declare all this, that the righteous, and the wise, and their works, are in the hand of God: no man knoweth either love or hatred by all that is before them.
Ecclesiastes 9:2 All things come alike to all: there is one event to the righteous, and to the wicked; to the good and to the clean, and to the unclean; to him that sacrificeth, and to him that sacrificeth not: as is the good, so is the sinner; and he that sweareth, as he that feareth an oath.
DEATH is coming to us all. But what happens on that last day of this flesh life?
Ecclesiastes 12:6 Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern. 7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
ALL flesh goes back to dirt and the spirit returns to God but our WORKS DO FOLLOW US.
Ecclesiastes 9:3 This is an evil among all things that are done under the sun, that there is one event unto all: yea, also the heart of the sons of men is full of evil, and madness is in their heart while they live, and after that they go to the dead.
BUT upon death of the FLESH, the 'spirit' of the dead go onto the dead and the 'spirit of the living' go to the living.
Ecclesiastes 9:4 For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion.
While we are still alive and walking upon this earth, we still have a CHANCE to come to salvation. ONCE that moment has passed, it is past forever and the only thing we have is our works WHICH do follow us whether the be 'live or dead' works.
Ecclesiastes 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
AGAIN, once the last breath has been taken, there are no more good WORKS that can be done, but hopefully the living have done lots before then and the 'dead', those who never came to understanding, perish. Blotted out. No memory of them forever. It will be as if they had never been.
Ecclesiastes 9:6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.
No reincarnation. No do overs. We have this one chance to get it right.
Ecclesiastes 9:7 Go thy way, eat thy bread with joy, and drink thy wine with a merry heart; for God now accepteth thy works.
So GO BE HAPPY and full of joy and WORK THOSE WORKS THAT FOLLOW US because the very last day for doing them in the flesh is coming to a close and that is the end of it.
Ecclesiastes 9:8 Let thy garments be always white; and let thy head lack no ointment.
Stay in the WORD.
Ecclesiastes 9:9 Live joyfully with the wife whom thou lovest all the days of the life of thy vanity, which he hath given thee under the sun, all the days of thy vanity: for that is thy portion in this life, and in thy labour which thou takest under the sun.
Ecclesiastes 9:10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.
Ecclesiastes 9:11 I returned, and saw under the sun, that the race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, neither yet bread to the wise, nor yet riches to men of understanding, nor yet favour to men of skill; but time and chance happeneth to them all.
Ecclesiastes 9:12 For man also knoweth not his time: as the fishes that are taken in an evil net, and as the birds that are caught in the snare; so are the sons of men snared in an evil time, when it falleth suddenly upon them.
Is today the last day to gather 'good works' or is there another? Since we don't know, we should act accordingly.
#1 IS THE 1st resurrection. #2 doesn't exist.
The flesh body is left in the ground and GOES BACK TO DUST. It WAS corruptible, terrestrial, mortal.
The spiritual body is raised. It is incorruptible, celestial, and immortal for some while still mortal for others.
There is no need for 'another' earthy body, they ARE CORRUPTIBLE. The 'realm' changes upon Christs return. From the seen (terrestrial) we are living today, to the unseen (celestial) we will be living upon Christs return which will become the NEW SEEN Day.
PROOF Genesis 6:6 And it repented the LORD that He had made man on the earth, and it grieved Him at His heart.
Before there EVER WAS AN EARTH, there were sons of GOD and morning stars...
Job 38:4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?
6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;
7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
Revelation 12:1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to His throne.
It means precisely just that: annihilationism.
Does it say eternal "punishing" or "punishment"? What's the punishment for sin? Death. What is "eternal punishment? Eternal death, from which there will be no resurrection.
Luke 16 is a parable. Are we to believe all the dead are in Abraham's literal bosom? Or that a man completely engulfed in flames can talk, or that one drop of water would do anything to assuage his torment? Also, if this is a literal story, why does the Rich Man and Lazarus have body parts like tongues, eyes, fingers, mouths when any funeral will prove that the dead do not burst into flames, even long after the bereaved leave to go home.
The text says nothing about the dead being happy or sad. Solomon says he "praises" the dead meaning "considers them better off" than the living because they have ceased from this life of turmoil, and then goes on to say that those who have not existed are even better off because they've never known the misery of Earthly life.
Everything you say I think to be true, but nothing here discounts what I've said.
That's not a true chiasm. "A" refers to the living, but the rest all refer to the dead. There's no "back and forth" between things pertaining to the conditions surrounding "A" and "B", only a general statement concerning "A" and then the rest all refers to "B".
The only reference to the living is when Solomon comes back around to tell us that we need to get busy getting done whatever we plan to do now because we're all headed to the grave where there's nothing: no work, laying plans, knowledge, wisdom, emotions, reward, our memories are wiped clean in "forgetfulness", no praising God, nothing but utter darkness and silence - if the saints are in heaven, surely they'd be praising God and basking in His glorious light, right?
HOW CAN THE SOUL CONTINUE TO EXIST AFTER GOD'S SPIRIT RETURNS TO HIM AND THE BODY RETURNS TO THE EARTH WHEN THE SOUL EXISTS ONLY AS A CONSEQUENCE OF THE UNION OF THESE TWO, ACCORDING TO GENESIS 2:7 KJV?
Does it say eternal "punishing" or "punishment"? What's the punishment for sin? Death. What is "eternal punishment? Eternal death, from which there will be no resurrection.
Luke 16 is a parable. Are we to believe all the dead are in Abraham's literal bosom? Or that a man completely engulfed in flames can talk, or that one drop of water would do anything to assuage his torment? Also, if this is a literal story, why does the Rich Man and Lazarus have body parts like tongues, eyes, fingers, mouths when any funeral will prove that the dead do not burst into flames, even long after the bereaved leave to go home.
The text says nothing about the dead being happy or sad. Solomon says he "praises" the dead meaning "considers them better off" than the living because they have ceased from this life of turmoil, and then goes on to say that those who have not existed are even better off because they've never known the misery of Earthly life.
Everything you say I think to be true, but nothing here discounts what I've said.
That's not a true chiasm. "A" refers to the living, but the rest all refer to the dead. There's no "back and forth" between things pertaining to the conditions surrounding "A" and "B", only a general statement concerning "A" and then the rest all refers to "B".
The only reference to the living is when Solomon comes back around to tell us that we need to get busy getting done whatever we plan to do now because we're all headed to the grave where there's nothing: no work, laying plans, knowledge, wisdom, emotions, reward, our memories are wiped clean in "forgetfulness", no praising God, nothing but utter darkness and silence - if the saints are in heaven, surely they'd be praising God and basking in His glorious light, right?
HOW CAN THE SOUL CONTINUE TO EXIST AFTER GOD'S SPIRIT RETURNS TO HIM AND THE BODY RETURNS TO THE EARTH WHEN THE SOUL EXISTS ONLY AS A CONSEQUENCE OF THE UNION OF THESE TWO, ACCORDING TO GENESIS 2:7 KJV?
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