Does 1 Thessalonians 4:14-18 Teach Jesus Will Return With Dead Saints Now With Him In Heaven?

[Laura798]

The inescapable conclusion is that there is no such thing as soul sleep. Jesus' account in Luke 16 of a beggar and rich man who died proves that the dead aren't sleeping.

Rev 6 and the 5th seal describe the souls of dead people in heaven asking for revenge and even shouting. They aren't sleeping.

Paul taught that being "absent from the body", meaning physical death when the soul leaves the body, is being "at home with the Lord".

Paul said nothing about the soul sleeping.

The better explanation of what "sleeping" refers to when describing someone who has died is that their physical body is sleeping. Which will be resurrected when Jesus comes.

It is obviously s parable and to take it as a true story is embarrassing. If we followed this line of reasoning— because Jesus uses names, then one could say “Adam the ant sprayed fire out of his arse and set the whole country of your Europe ablaze with it. “ 🔥 and its true because you see i used a name…🙄
"All these things Jesus said to the crowds in parables; indeed, he said nothing to them without a parable.” —Matthew 13:34

 

[posthuman]

to take it as a true story is embarrassing

You are teaching us that it is embarrassing to take Christ at His word?

Wow

 

[DavidTree]

And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul/being. Genesis 2:7

A.) God formed a physical body from the dust of the ground

B.) God BREATHED into the physical body (WHAT???) = and man became a living soul/being.

C.) ONLY after GOD Breathed into the physical body of dust did man become a living being/soul.

PEACE and LIFE in the BREATH of CHRIST

 

[posthuman]

And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul/being. Genesis 2:7

A.) God formed a physical body from the dust of the ground

B.) God BREATHED into the physical body (WHAT???) = and man became a living soul/being.

C.) ONLY after GOD Breathed into the physical body of dust did man become a living being/soul.

PEACE and LIFE in the BREATH of CHRIST

Amen

There is only one breath of Life, the same which is in Christ, and whoever believes in Him, tho he dies he will live.
Everlasting life is absolutely not descriptive of 'ceasing to exist' when the physical body, this tent, this garment returns to dust. Life is spiritual, and the spirit is not annihilated.

Those who have life as God defines life always have life.
Those who are dead as God defines death are dead already irrespective of the temporary animation of their physical tents, unless hey are quickened by THE LIFEGIVING SPIRIT which is Christ, the last Adam

 

[posthuman]

It is the atheist and unbeliever who claims people cease to exist when the physical body dies, who claims there is no spirit, who claims life is only the temporary animation of the body.

We should be careful who we agree with.

 

[DavidTree]

Amen

There is only one breath of Life, the same which is in Christ, and whoever believes in Him, tho he dies he will live.
Everlasting life is absolutely not descriptive of 'ceasing to exist' when the physical body, this tent, this garment returns to dust. Life is spiritual, and the spirit is not annihilated.

Those who have life as God defines life always have life.
Those who are dead as God defines death are dead already irrespective of the temporary animation of their physical tents, unless hey are quickened by THE LIFEGIVING SPIRIT which is Christ, the last Adam

If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater; for this is the witness of God which He has testified of His Son. He who believes in the Son of God has the witness in himself; he who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed the testimony that God has given of His Son.
And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son.
He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.

You cannot kill or destroy or remove the Eternal Life that God has given to us in Christ.

My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish;
neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand.
I and My Father are one.”

 

[1ofthem]

Ok, I've not read much of this... just a few posts. So maybe this has already been covered...IDK.

Just curious though, if the conscious dies with the body then who were the spirits in prison that Jesus went and preached to.

1 Peter 3:19–20 "By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; (20) Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water." (KJV)

That just doesn't jive with people dying and ceasing to exist until judgment day.

 

[Laura798]

You are teaching us that it is embarrassing to take Christ at His word?

Wow

Its curious that you equate YOUR words with Christs— John says everything Jesus spoke to the people was in parables and I believe it. If you simply look st what the rest of scripture says as well as the surrounding parables you can easily see it is a parable— sheesh🙄

 

[Laura798]

Ok, I've not read much of this... just a few posts. So maybe this has already been covered...IDK.

Just curious though, if the conscious dies with the body then who were the spirits in prison that Jesus went and preached to.

1 Peter 3:19–20 "By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; (20) Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water." (KJV)

That just doesn't jive with people dying and ceasing to exist until judgment day.

Hi 1ofthem,

they were those who died in the flood they were ‘imprisoned’ by the water. Of course once one has died there is no opportunity for salvation— through the power of the Holy Spirit via Noah the wicked people that were destroyed in the flood were preached to.

 

[1ofthem]

It is obviously s parable and to take it as a true story is embarrassing. If we followed this line of reasoning— because Jesus uses names, then one could say “Adam the ant sprayed fire out of his arse and set the whole country of your Europe ablaze with it. “ 🔥 and its true because you see i used a name…🙄
"All these things Jesus said to the crowds in parables; indeed, he said nothing to them without a parable.” —Matthew 13:34

Ok...lol on the Adam ant thingy...


But...

The rich man and Lazarus may be a parable. However, there are scriptures that seem to support it.

1. Jesus goes and preaches to the spirits in prison.

2. The theif was promised to be in paradise with Jesus that same day.

I think there may be more...but not sure and don't want to misquote anything before looking into the scripture.

 

[Phoneman-777]

The Angels do not carry dead bodies. The Angels carried the soul of Lazarus to be with Abraham's soul in Paradise. Abraham and Lazarus had both died and their dead bodies were buried in the earth, their souls went on to Paradise. Angels do not touch or carry dead bodies - only the souls of the Righteous, just as the Lord said.

The problem with the "immortal soul" crowd" is that they refuse to accept the explicit Biblical description of what is a Soul (Genesis 2:7 KJV) and the mortal nature of it (James 5:20 KJV) and thus must resort to twisting other texts which are either less explicit or speak of the Soul poetically as "proof" of their doctrine.

Since a Soul only exists as a consequence of the union of the Body and the Breath of Life, at death the Soul ceases to exist and thus can't be carried anywhere by anyone...unless this is said to happen in parables like the Rich Man and Lazarus.

 

[DavidTree]

The problem with the "immortal soul" crowd" is that they refuse to accept the explicit Biblical description of what is a Soul (Genesis 2:7 KJV) and the mortal nature of it (James 5:20 KJV) and thus must resort to twisting other texts which are either less explicit or speak of the Soul poetically as "proof" of their doctrine.

Since a Soul only exists as a consequence of the union of the Body and the Breath of Life, at death the Soul ceases to exist and thus can't be carried anywhere by anyone...unless this is said to happen in parables like the Rich Man and Lazarus.

James 5:20 is a rebuke against your unbelief

Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins.

You have wandered from the Truth = See JESUS words of Truth in Post #166

 

[1ofthem]

Hi 1ofthem,

they were those who died in the flood they were ‘imprisoned’ by the water. Of course once one has died there is no opportunity for salvation— through the power of the Holy Spirit via Noah the wicked people that were destroyed in the flood were preached to.

Yes, I agree that there is not a chance or opportunity for salvation after death, at this point.

The thing is these spirits were in prison. They hadn't ceased to exist.

Then you have the thief being promised paradise that same day.

Doesn't that sound a lot like the Parable of the Rich man and Lazarus?

It seems to suggest that the unsaved go to prison waiting for the final judgment and the saved go to paradise waiting for the first resurrection when their spirit will be reunited with their bodies and they will be resurrected.

 

[Laura798]

It is the atheist and unbeliever who claims people cease to exist when the physical body dies, who claims there is no spirit, who claims life is only the temporary animation of the body.

We should be careful who we agree with.

“immortality of the soul is based on a lie. Modern believers in the immortality of the soul would be laughed to scorn by the philosophers of antiquity for believing that lie.”…..
"
Job and Immortal Soul
The patriarch Job asked an important question that goes to the heart of the matter regarding the supposed immortal soul. He asked this question while undergoing intense suffering. The question involves you and all humanity: “If a man die, shall he live again?” (Job 14:14). The answer to this question is yes, but the obvious inference is that the dead are not alive. One is either alive or dead. ”27

“So man lies down, and rises not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep. O that you would hide me in the grave, that you would keep me secret, until your wrath be past, that you would appoint me a set time, and remember me! If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come. You shall call, and I will answer you: you will have a desire to the work of your hands.Job 14:12–15

https://www.askelm.com/doctrine/d060101.htm

 

[Laura798]

Yes, I agree that there is not a chance or opportunity for salvation after death, at this point.

The thing is these spirits were in prison. They hadn't ceased to exist.

Then you have the thief being promised paradise that same day.

Doesn't that sound a lot like the Parable of the Rich man and Lazarus?

It seems to suggest that the unsaved go to prison waiting for the final judgment and the saved go to paradise waiting for the first resurrection when their spirit will be reunited with their bodies and they will be resurrected.

I just explained— they were imprisoned by the water— the idea that they are in a kind of purgatory after death is from Roman Catholicism which they got from commingling Christianity to create their demonic soup to deceive the masses— how important it is to test scripture against scripture and never isolate scripture as scripture never contradicts itself.

It is in the isolation of verses that all false doctrine derives from.

 

[Phoneman-777]

You don't understand what you are reading.

Celldude is teaching that Jesus tells fairy tales and pagan lies, and Celldude is teaching that God annihilates every living soul:

CompostMan doesn't know the difference between pagan lies/fairy tales and parables, the very thing Jesus Himself told the OT people He would one day appear and do in Psalms 78:1-2 KJV.

CompostMan's preaching lives up to his name

 

[Laura798]

Yes, I agree that there is not a chance or opportunity for salvation after death, at this point.

The thing is these spirits were in prison. They hadn't ceased to exist.

Then you have the thief being promised paradise that same day.

Doesn't that sound a lot like the Parable of the Rich man and Lazarus?

It seems to suggest that the unsaved go to prison waiting for the final judgment and the saved go to paradise waiting for the first resurrection when their spirit will be reunited with their bodies and they will be resurrected.

. Editing timed out— resending
I just explained— they were imprisoned by the water— the idea that they are in a kind of purgatory after death is from Roman Catholicism which they got from commingling paganism with Christianity to create their demonic soup to deceive the masses— how important it is to test scripture against scripture and never isolate scripture as scripture never contradicts itself.

It is in the isolation of verses that all false doctrine derives from.

Note that only 8 were saved out of millions, even billions of peopl from the world wide flood; only 3 out of hundreds of thousands when God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah. I have visited many churches over the years and its disturbing to see how much false teaching is in them— and how few people investigate scripture for themselves. if you pray sincerely for God to reveal the mystery of the gospel, He will answer, but few do.
look back at my previous posts explaining the thief on the cross.

 

[Laura798]

Amen

There is only one breath of Life, the same which is in Christ, and whoever believes in Him, tho he dies he will live.
Everlasting life is absolutely not descriptive of 'ceasing to exist' when the physical body, this tent, this garment returns to dust. Life is spiritual, and the spirit is not annihilated.

Those who have life as God defines life always have life.
Those who are dead as God defines death are dead already irrespective of the temporary animation of their physical tents, unless hey are quickened by THE LIFEGIVING SPIRIT which is Christ, the last Adam

This is the pagan belief in the immortality of the soul.

"God who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see. To him be honor and might forever. Amen.”- 1st Timothy 6:16
And it is to believe the first lie of Satan,
“you shall not surely die. “

 

[Laura798]

It is the atheist and unbeliever who claims people cease to exist when the physical body dies, who claims there is no spirit, who claims life is only the temporary animation of the body.

We should be careful who we agree with.

It is YOU who says they cease to exist, no one else has stated that.
A person will only cease to exist at Christs Second Coming and Final Judgment:

“The Lord Jesus will destroy him with the breath of His mouth and will bring him to nothing with the brightness of His coming.”—

Not only the antIchrist but ALL unbelievers.

 

[Sipsey]

This is the pagan belief in the immortality of the soul.

"God who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see. To him be honor and might forever. Amen.”- 1st Timothy 6:16
And it is to believe the first lie of Satan,
“you shall not surely die. “

Pagans and the many cults that reverberate the same blinded view, that Jesus simply didn’t mean what He actually said. There are several deaths spoken of in Scripture. To define any one of them without the proper context and exegesis is to be misled.