will faith be here?

randyk · Dec 29, 2021

A brother posted that he thinks most Christians will be killed off by the time of Antichrist's reign, whether by war, natural disasters, or persecution. I don't know what his position is on the timing of the Rapture of the Church.

I find that interesting not because I 100% agree with it, but because it allows me to improve my position somewhat. Of course, this is theoretical, because the future is hard to know with any precision.

I'm not Pretrib, so I don't accept that the international Church is removed from the earth during the last 3.5 years of the age. But I do agree that the vast majority of Christians will be gone by that time from other causes. As Christians become less and less popular with the waning of Christian civilization, there will be relatively few who will be raptured alive at the end of the age.

Think of Elijah who was raptured to heaven. He was only one person in Israel who went missing. Only a few missed him.

Similarly, at the end of the age there will be relatively few Christians among the nations, I think. And when Christ comes back, those few he takes up to heaven will hardly be missed!

Israel is the template for all this. It was the nation who developed the pattern that we now see among all Christian nations. The baton was passed from Israel to the Roman Empire--think: "the Kingdom will be taken from Israel and given to a nation worthy of it."

So just as Israel was worthy at one time, so in the present age many European nations have been worthy in the past. But as Israel fell away, so now many Christian nations are turning to apostasy.

And so, just like the multitudes initially followed Jesus and then turned away, learning how unpopular the cross was, so now the multitudes of Christians in Christian nations have now been turning away from Christianity due to its unpopularity in the world. And I do think the vast numbers of Christians are dwindling in our time.

Yes, many are Christian in name only, just as in Jesus' time, Jews were God's Chosen in name only. What we're seeing is a fulfillment, I think, of what Jesus said: "when the Son of Man comes will he find faith on the earth?"

What this means to me is that even though we're seeing the beginning of the end of Christian civilization in the present age, there are still way too many Christians for things to go completely south yet. There is still room for ministry.

And we should encourage one another to remain faithful as we see many fall away due to the unpopularity of the message of the cross. When the Rapture of the Church finally takes place at Christ's 2nd Coming, there will likely be relatively few Christians noticed who are "missing."

When Christ comes, the nations, including Israel, will show fear at the coming of the Son of Man in judgment from heaven. They will be ashamed of their ways, and will suffer great remorse for their hardness of hearts.

But Christ's Coming will open up the door for renewal in the world, both for Israel and for the nations. Christian Civilization will, I think, be restarted.

studentoftheword · Dec 31, 2021

Thread title ----will faith be here?

As Long as God is here ----Faith is needed ----you can't please God without Faith ------

Faith is like a spiritual sink hole ------when we are not grounded and rooted in God's Faith ---the root is fragile and will give way to a sinking faith that will descend downward and swallow us up ------

The Parable of the Sower gives you a great example of what happens when the right faith is not grounded and rooted in you -----there is an enemy loose to grab your Faith and send you in a downward decent ---

There are many who call themselves Christians who have not the right Faith and who are being deceived into thinking they are above ground when they are really in a Spiritual sink hole -----when their Faith ground gives way they are on a descent downward into the great sink hole which goes into the centre of the earth -----

The Rapture takes only true Christian both dead and alive to be with God -----according to Scripture ----this earth as we know it will be destroyed ----the New Earth comes down from Heaven ----according to scripture -

randyk · Dec 31, 2021

studentoftheword said:

Yes. Faith is related to the true Church. But my point is that before the Rapture of the true Church, I think most true Christians will be dead. Most of Christianity in the endtimes will be "in name only."

studentoftheword said:

Many, however, don't have saving faith to begin with. Their "faith" consists of an occasional act of good works, to cooperate with God's word within their conscience. They do this either unconscious that it is God's word, or they may be very aware that it is God speaking to them from within.

But again, the point is that I think most of the world in the endtimes will end up a largely external Christianity, void of saving faith. And saving faith for me is not good works alone. Rather, it is a commitment to obey God's word through the internalization of a new nature given us by Christ.

It is a commitment to Christ as Lord over our lives, and as the sole standard of righteousness for our lives. It is a displacement of our own independent will for a will that is committed to giving way to Christ's Spirit. We commit ourselves, in all that we do, to making decisions in deference to the Spirit of Christ, who grounds our decisions in love.

studentoftheword said:

I am Premillennial. So I think the Rapture of the living is a rather obscure event in the history of the world. Since there will be few who are alive and remain, their disappearance will not be noticed so much, in my view. Otherwise, there would be a castastrophic disaster simply due to the disappearance of so many people on earth who others are relying on, whether flying planes, cars, or trains, etc.

But when judgment falls upon an unbelieving earth, there will be a revelation of Christ that brings the world back into submission to him. Then the dead and living saints who are glorified will somehow oversee this transition, perhaps like the angels watch over God's word in the present age?

JTB · Dec 31, 2021

I believe we are on earth for the judgment half of the tribulation (the first 3.5 years) but are caught up before the wrath portion (the second 3.5 years).

During the judgment portion, we are persecuted, arrested, hauled before the rulers and killed for refusing to deny God and worship the world's ruler.

The Bible also says that during this time, many will turn away from Him.

Given these scenarios, I believe the actual number of living Christians being caught up at the end will be very very small.

studentoftheword · Dec 31, 2021

Well randyk ----you are entitled to your view that is for sure ----and i respect your view ------

We humans have all kinks of theories and beliefs about the end times and the Rapture and the real truth is they are just that theories and our personal beliefs ---

The Real truth will be revealed by God Himself and until that happens all we can do dis go with our personal theories and beliefs ------that is how I see that ------

randyk said:

I say -----I hope your wrong -----I personally would love to be one of the ones Raptured up in meeting Jesus in the air on His Cloud -----and I believe the Rapture could happen anytime as i do believe we are in the end times now -----I believe in a Pre Trib Rapture ------and there will be another Rapture at the end of the 7 year Tribulation I believe as many unbelievers will be saved ------

randyk said:

I say ------I agree that many who call themselves Christians ---are false Christians and believe that as long as they are a good person serving in the soup kitchens and attending Church every Sunday believe they will be with God in their end ------and they are in for a shock in their end I believe ------their Faith is Human Faith not saving Faith -----

randyk said:

I say -----I have no idea where you get this from but if that is what you believe then that is your belief ------

randyk · Dec 31, 2021

JTB said:

A good pastor-friend of mine is also Pre-Wrath, and I have no problem with that. It's a sister position to my own Postrib position. Thanks.

randyk · Dec 31, 2021

studentoftheword said:

I also respect your position and am a "student of the word."

However, truth is black and white. The only problem is that we are "gray," and have to work through our myopia and presuppositions. Yes, a lot of this is speculative, but I do try to make my more "dogmatic" statements things that are expressly taught in the Scriptures.

For example, I don't see a PreTrib Rapture taught anywhere in the Scriptures. So though I used to hold to this position, it didn't hold up when I memorized 2 Thessalonians, particularly ch. 2. There, in explicit language Paul taught the Thessalonians that Christ cannot come for his Church until after Antichrist appears. Then Christ will come with the express purpose of destroying him!

But I do understand that Dispensational theology has ways around this, stating that the Restrainer is the Holy Spirit and that the Church is "taken away" with the Holy Spirit. And I can't accept that, but I do respect Pretribbers, if only because they share Premillennial belief with me!

Yes on the fake Christianity in our time. It will be exposed as "human works." I wouldn't be overly concerned about going through the "Tribulation" if my Postrib is right. The "Great Tribulation" was never meant to be applied strictly to the last 7 years of the age, nor are the last times even described as 7 years (unless you have a gap theory on Dan 9).

Rather, the Great Tribulation was applied by Jesus to the entire NT age and to the Jewish Diaspora. In this Jesus said that both Jews and Christians would suffer. So if we've been suffering all down through the age, the last 3.5 years of this age will not be any different.

The Great Tribulation is the worst Jewish Punishment in history not because the Antichrist afflicts them, but because it is the *longest* Jewish Punishment in history. It has lasted for 2000+ years! By contrast, the Babylonian Captivity was 40 years and Israel only had to wait 400 years to come out of Egypt.

Gen 15.13 Then the Lord said to him, “Know for certain that for four hundred years your descendants will be strangers in a country not their own and that they will be enslaved and mistreated there. "

Luke 21.20 “When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country not enter the city. 22 For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written. 23 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! There will be great distress in the land and wrath against this people. 24 They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

Pretribbers are Premillennialists as I am and believe that after the Jewish Punishment in the present age the Jews will be restored to their land in Israel and restored *spiritually.* I believe this is described all through the OT Prophets and is sometimes called "the Jewish Hope." I think therefore that's entirely biblical.

studentoftheword · Dec 31, 2021

randyk said:

I think you need to look closer into Scripture -----it definitely is there ---for instance the Church is never mentions after Revelation chapter 3 -------God would be giving instructions to His Church throughout the 7 year period if the Saints were still here -------Revelations 4 talks about heaven and then Revelations 5 talks about the Scrool and the lamb --

and the Revelation 3 says -----

To the Church in Philadelphia
7 “To the angel of the church in Philadelphia write:

These are the words of him who is holy and true, who holds the key of David. What he opens no one can shut, and what he shuts no one can open. 8 I know your deeds. See, I have placed before you an open door that no one can shut. I know that you have little strength, yet you have kept my word and have not denied my name. 9 I will make those who are of the synagogue of Satan, who claim to be Jews though they are not, but are liars—I will make them come and fall down at your feet and acknowledge that I have loved you.

10 Since you have kept my command to endure patiently,

I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth.

--So again you see scripture different than I do ---is all ----

And we have no idea who is right -----so we just have to wait and when the time comes ----then and only then will we will know the real truth -----

Pilgrimshope · Dec 31, 2021

randyk said:

as long as this is happening there is faith somewhere

“And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭24:14‬ ‭

it seems like when Christ comes it will end this world in a reign of fire and judgement of the ungodly and Renew both heaven and earth with pure righteousness having destroyed sin

“But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.”
‭‭2 Peter‬ ‭3:7, 9-13‬ ‭KJV‬‬

it also seems the worldwide expected chaos in the very end isn’t going to be evident to everyone only those who are listening to the word

“But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭24:36-39, 42, 44‬ ‭KJV‬‬
it seems the world is already in chaos but doesn’t realize it only those watching through the gospel are going to realize. To the world it’s going to be another day festivals celebrations weddings dinners ect a normal day but suddenly he will come

And of course only the very last generations of men are going to experience his second coming to earth all the generations before have already left earth by the at time.

When he comes though it’s the end of this world and gathering up his people for the new world

“The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire;

so shall it be in the end of this world. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

…So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just, And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Jesus saith unto them, Have ye understood all these things? They say unto him, Yea, Lord.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭13:39-43, 49-51‬ ‭KJV‬‬

As long as the true gospel of the kingdom is preached there is faith

randyk · Dec 31, 2021

studentoftheword said:

As I said, the only time I get dogmatic is when the Scriptures are explicit in their teaching. And I do find the teaching of Postrib explicit in 2 Thes 2. Yes, there are different interpretations, based on your presupposition. But if you leave all presupposition out of it, it appears to be explicitly teaching Postrib.

The book of Revelation consists of things that are and things that are to come. The 7 churches, as well as the church at Philadelphia, belong to the things that are. That is, they existed in John's time, and John was addressing those literal historical churches.

The church at Philadelphia literally was tested by some kind of tribulation extending across the Roman world, and were spared a direct hit from it. None of this implies a Pretrib Rapture at the end of the age, unless you begin with that presupposition.

The absence of the word "church" in the part dealing with the things to come would be an argument from silence. May I suggest that the word "saints" might mean the same as "church?" If not, again this would be based on a presupposition.

Rev 12.11 They triumphed over him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony; they did not love their lives so much as to shrink from death.

Why on earth would John be warning the saints about not taking the mark of the Beast unless they will be there to avoid it? In fact, the whole book of Revelation was written to the Church. So "saints" equals "church" in my view.

Furthermore, much that is written in the Revelation is taken from OT prophecy, such that OT language is being used to describe a NT phenomenon. The use of "saints" then would be apt as a reference to the endtime Church.

Sorry, I can't help but try to convince you. I had a change of mind many years ago, and I've become convinced that I should share what I believe I know.

User00 · Dec 31, 2021

Whatever it is your beliefs are on the end times
The Bible says we should live our lives as normal and carry on, while being faithful and watching
God would not abandon the church on earth or anything in such a way as there would be no faith left
As long as we keep to faith and trust in Jesus we will be safe and sound, God is not the author of confusion
Many people have different ideas and views on this matter, I personally believe no one can go wrong if we are to live as normal while being faithful and watching and leave it in God's hands

JTB · Dec 31, 2021

Pray for pre
Prepare for post
And any other time, including right now, would be just fine!

randyk · Jan 1, 2022

User00 said:

In fact that was a major point in Jesus' message on the end times. Don't try to figure out the times and the seasons, or the time of his Return. Just stay awake and be alert. And that means you have to beware of the devil's schemes, and even of people's schemes. And you have to be living your life in the Holy Spirit, giving up the tendencies of the flesh. It doesn't mean we sit on a mountain top expecting the Rapture could happen today.

No, it means we live faithfully every day. That way you're sure to be prepared, whatever you think about the timing of Christ's Return. We need to be about our Father's business, right?

User00 · Jan 1, 2022

randyk said:

In fact that was a major point in Jesus' message on the end times. Don't try to figure out the times and the seasons, or the time of his Return. Just stay awake and be alert. And that means you have to beware of the devil's schemes, and even of people's schemes. And you have to be living your life in the Holy Spirit, giving up the tendencies of the flesh. It doesn't mean we sit on a mountain top expecting the Rapture could happen today.

No, it means we live faithfully every day. That way you're sure to be prepared, whatever you think about the timing of Christ's Return. We need to be about our Father's business, right?

Indeed

Pilgrimshope · Jan 1, 2022

User00 said:

I think the question of the op comes from a question Jesus asked the disciples

“I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭18:8‬ ‭

we know this will and already has happened near the end

“This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;

Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.”
‭‭2 Timothy‬ ‭3:1-5‬ ‭KJV‬‬

doesn’t that pretty much describe the world today ? Self love and promotion ? Boasting and pride ? Lovers of pleasure ? Covetous and always greedy for more ? It seems like the world is pretty much there

I think in the end there’s going to be few that actually believe but even now who actually believes the gospel Jesus spoke forth still ? That’s where faith comes from

“So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭10:17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

We’ve come to a place where we just say “ I have faith “ but then we hear the word and say “ I don’t believe that applies to me “ so will there be faith ? It seems as long as this happens there will be some

“And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭24:14‬ ‭KJV‬‬

User00 · Jan 1, 2022

Pilgrimshope said:

I think the question of the op comes from a question Jesus asked the disciples

“I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭18:8‬ ‭

we know this will and already has happened near the end

“This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;

Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.”
‭‭2 Timothy‬ ‭3:1-5‬ ‭KJV‬‬

doesn’t that pretty much describe the world today ? Self love and promotion ? Boasting and pride ? Lovers of pleasure ? Covetous and always greedy for more ? It seems like the world is pretty much there

I think in the end there’s going to be few that actually believe but even now who actually believes the gospel Jesus spoke forth still ? That’s where faith comes from

“So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭10:17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

We’ve come to a place where we just say “ I have faith “ but then we hear the word and say “ I don’t believe that applies to me “ so will there be faith ? It seems as long as this happens there will be some

“And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭24:14‬ ‭KJV‬‬

I do agree
I believe today there are believers in the world and they are not of the world
In the OP randyk mentioned he believed the vast majority of christians will be gone
As long as there is one believer left that is enough
As spurgeon once said, one candles flame is enough to light thousands

Pilgrimshope · Jan 1, 2022

User00 said:

agreed bro

I think we can be sure there will be some and then one day , who knows when tomorrow ? A thousand years ? But one day there’s going to suddenly be this

“For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”
‭‭1 Thessalonians‬ ‭4:16-17‬ ‭

Glorious day for some but aweful for others

“And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;”
‭‭2 Thessalonians‬ ‭1:7-9‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just, And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Jesus saith unto them, Have ye understood all these things? They say unto him, Yea, Lord.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭13:41-43, 49-51‬ ‭KJV‬‬

one day brother and so we live in expectation walking as if he could come back tomorrow

studentoftheword · Jan 1, 2022

randyk said:

You can share all you want to about what you believe ----but as far as you knowing ---well that is debatable ----I would say sharing what you think you know -------is the better way to put it -----and you will never convince me to side with your view ----sorry ---I only Rely on the Holy Spirit to guide through the Scriptures not any man ------

You see---- you say yourself that You had a Change of Mind ------so to me that says somewhere you were confused about your belief and you took a stand on one side and discarded the other ---for what ever reason you had a change of mind -----this spells confusion to me and confusion doesn't come from God ----

I have been studying Scripture for the passed 34 years relying on the Holy Spirit's guidance and I have never wavered from that ---and I have no plans to listen to anyone except the one who dwells in me ----

I say ------The whole point of God bringing on the Tribulation is to save as many People as HE can ---God wants all people Saved ------so it makes no sense to leave any True Saints to go through the Tribulation to be Saved when they are already saved ---------That just makes no sense at all ------there are people who think they are saved who are not and they will be left on the earth to experience the Tribulation ------

All unbelievers are the only ones left on this earth to endure the 7 year tribulation -------the seals are open in Chapter 6 and in Chapter 7 --God keeps His Covenant with Israel and the 12 Tribes of Israel are Marked with God's mark to protect them and bring them through the tribulation unharmed -----The 144,000 Jews become the protected Race to go out and preach the Gospel to all the world and save souls ------

Read here ----
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation+7&version=NIV

-
-Revelations 12:11 is what you quoted -----refers to the the unbelievers who become saved during the second half of the Tribulation -------

The not taking the mark of the beast is in Revelations 13 and that speaks to all people ----it does not specify just Saints like you quoted -----And any True Saint who came to Christ during the Tribulation will choose death as apposed to accepting the Mark of the Beast ---these are called the Martyrs of the Tribulation ------see Scriptures below

Revelation 6:9-11 NKJV
Fifth Seal: The Cry of the Martyrs
9 When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” 11 Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed

Revelation 13 NIV
15 The second beast was given power to give breath to the image of the first beast, so that the image could speak and cause all who refused to worship the image to be killed.

16 It also forced all people, great and small, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hands or on their foreheads,

17 so that they could not buy or sell unless they had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of its name.

Revelation 20:4-5 ESV
Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. This is the first resurrection.

So you can have your opinion -----and I will stick with mine ----and Happy New Year to you !

randyk · Jan 1, 2022

studentoftheword said:

Paul said we see thru a glass darkly, meaning that we're naturally myopic. Anybody who claims they "know" everything, and never change, are caught up in a moment of pride.

studentoftheword said:

I try to avoid these kinds of personal self-aggrandizing testimonies. I'd rather discuss the issues, and indeed let the Holy Spirit be the manager of what we think we know.

studentoftheword said:

Well, if you consider how Jesus defined the Great Tribulation, you'll see that the Great Tribulation is not for the purpose of saving, but rather, for the purpose of punishing. I'll refer you to Luke 21.20-24.

Yes, God wants all men to be saved, and everything He does ultimately expresses that wish. On the other hand, some refuse to repent and must be taken out. The whole purpose of the Lake of Fire is not to save people but to remove them from earth so that it can truly be a paradise.

studentoftheword said:

The 144,000 is not a "race," but rather, the size of a major Army group. It is said to consist of Israelis, which survive a period of satanic persecution. It has to do, I think, with the preservation of a remnant of Israel so as to safeguard Israel's entry into the Millennium.

But the prophecy refers to Antichrist's domination over all nations, and not just Israel. The warning is to Christians in all nations, and not just for Jewish Christians in Israel! The book was not written only to Jewish believers. Rather, it was written to the Great Multitude who are Christians from all nations.

studentoftheword said:

People of this world don't read the Bible. This revelation was given to the Church!

studentoftheword said:

No problem.

studentoftheword · Jan 1, 2022

randyk said:

No --you are wrong there ----God Loves His Creation ---He wants all people to come Back to Him ------the Tribulation is being used as a tool to get people to come to their senses and realize they are sinners and they need a Saviour ----God does not Punish His Creation -----We punish ourselves by rejecting His Son and continuing in our sinful ways ----the tribulation is God's last try to save His Creation before this world ends ------

randyk said:

I see you don't know much about the 12 Tribes of Israel -----all Jews belong to one of the 12 tribes -----they are not an army at all ------your being duped by Mr Satan here -----Jacob who God called Israel had 12 Sons and they form the 12 tribes of Israel-----they are all Jews and they are spared by God through out the tribulation as He is honoring His Covenant that He made to the Jews as His Chosen nation that they would not be forgotten ------

randyk said:

The Bible is all about the Jewish Nation ------they were God's Chosen people ----and they were not Believers ---they were unbelievers that Jesus was the Messiah so God allowed the Gentile nation --NON JEWS to be included in His free gift of Salvation in hopes it would wake the Jews up to accept His Son as their Messiah ------So many of the Jews today are still unbelievers and they will go through the Tribulation ----along with all unbelieving Gentiles -----if your not born a Jew your a Gentile -----

randyk said:

I have no idea where you get this from ------all kinds of worldly people read the Bible ------the just read the Logos Word -----which is the written word ----they don't get or understand the Rhema Word which is the Spoken Word --which is only given to Believers by and through indwelling of the Holy spirit -------

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Which is the most read book in the world

The Holy Bible

The Holy Bible is the most read book in the world. In the past 50 years, the Bible has sold over 3.9 billion copies. It is the most recognizable and famous book that has ever been published.

will faith be here?

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