Does 1 Thessalonians 4:14-18 Teach Jesus Will Return With Dead Saints Now With Him In Heaven?

[Phoneman-777]

You misquoted and misapplied Genesis here.

It's called paraphrasing within the context and terms. Soul's ain't immortal because "only God hath immortality" and it's a gift given only to the righteous later, not now, according to Romans 2:7 KJV.

Why is it so important to the "immortal soul" crowd that the wicked burn for all eternity? Is it the appeal of "exclusivity religion" that is jealously retained by Luciferians and Predestinationalists?

 

[posthuman]

How important it is to never isolate scripture as that is where all false doctrine originates. In this you are saying the soul is immortal— which is blasphemy against God.

Please read the whole of scripture as scripture NEVER contradicts itself.

Understand that even if thousands of years have passed— there is ZERO passage of time from the dead persons perspective— we DO pass from death to life in the twinkling of an eye as scripture says:

"in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.”-1st Corinthians 15:52

Amen, Amen I say to you:​

he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life,
and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life!​

(John 5:2)
​

note that "has everlasting life" is present tense; a present & ongoing possession
note that "has passed from death into life" is past tense; a completed action.
note that "shall not come into judgement" is explicitly excluding a certain future.

do you believe what He says?

 

[posthuman]

Understand that even if thousands of years have passed— there is ZERO passage of time from the dead persons perspective—

oh, time depends on you??
you are the absolute measure of time??

wow, sorry, i didn't realize how important you are!

 

[Phoneman-777]

um..
you know that guy you were praising saying you agree 100% with? he is the one saying every living soul is annihilated and ceases to exist:

Whoever he is, tell him "winner winner, chicken dinner!!!"

he is saying every living creature is utterly destroyed by dust returning to dust.

Nah, he says the Soul exists only when the Body and Breath are united and ceases to when they separate which is what Scripture teaches.

being super-aggressive in a conversation that you don't comprehend is a recipe for embarassing ones self.

You mean like you did in your arrogance and haste to "prove" that the Wicked can be recipients of "agape" love?

Things so contrary that they can't agree anymore than the spirit and the flesh can agree in a Christian man?

I'm still waiting for you to show me from just one single Scripture in all the Bible where the wicked are said to partake of "agape" -- not "agapeo" which has about as much in common with "agape" as can of vienna sausage has with a royal feast - but "agape".

 

[Phoneman-777]

True = "Yes, David refered to PEOPLE aka SOULS that no longer speak when dead."

However, you do not understand why, even though it has been explained to you in the Word and by others on here.

Of course: they've ceased to exist because a Soul comes into existence at the moment the Body and the Breath of Life unite...

...and by the authority of God's Word as well as the laws of common sense, cause and effect, logic and reason, and plain ol' reading comprehension - at the disunion of the Body and Breath of Life the Soul must cease to exist.

The rest of your interpretations do not rest on this foundational text about what is and what is the relationship between the Soul, Spirit, and Body and is why you have to resort to making the literal symbolic and the symbolic literal.

 

[Phoneman-777]

oh, time depends on you??
you are the absolute measure of time??

wow, sorry, i didn't realize how important you are!

What does that even mean????

 

[Laura798]

oh, time depends on you??
you are the absolute measure of time??

wow, sorry, i didn't realize how important you are!

What a bizarre and nonsensical response--do you say that to everyone who quotes scripture to support their position? I used an irrefutable verse that says we pass from death to life in the twinkling of an eye--I'm sorry that you do not believe we have to support our beliefs with scripture. I'm even sorrier that you prefer to stand on what you've been taught rather than God's Word.

 

[DavidTree]

Of course: they've ceased to exist because a Soul comes into existence at the moment the Body and the Breath of Life unite...

...and by the authority of God's Word as well as the laws of common sense, cause and effect, logic and reason, and plain ol' reading comprehension - at the disunion of the Body and Breath of Life the Soul must cease to exist.

The rest of your interpretations do not rest on this foundational text about what is and what is the relationship between the Soul, Spirit, and Body and is why you have to resort to making the literal symbolic and the symbolic literal.

your own logic will not supply the needed understanding that you lack

arguing against the word's of Christ is your first blunder

 

[posthuman]

What a bizarre and nonsensical response--do you say that to everyone who quotes scripture to support their position? I used an irrefutable verse that says we pass from death to life in the twinkling of an eye--I'm sorry that you do not believe we have to support our beliefs with scripture. I'm even sorrier that you prefer to stand on what you've been taught rather than God's Word.

you still do not appear to understand what you are reading.

1 Corinthians 15:52 is talking about His second coming. it does not say it is the time we will pass from death to life ((unless you have only a carnal, monistic, atheistic definition of 'death')). the scripture defines life as our present possession, and not in terms of the atheistic monism definition of the mere temporary animation of dust.
is John 5:2 talking about the same thing?

Amen, Amen I say to you:​

he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life,​

and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life!​

(John 5:2)​

​

​

note that "has everlasting life" is present tense; a present & ongoing possession
note that "has passed from death into life" is past tense; a completed action.
note that "shall not come into judgement" is explicitly excluding a certain future.

do you believe what He says?



if you do not believe Christ, do you at least believe Paul?

And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins ​

(Ephesians 2:1)​

​

​

you earlier agreed that celldude is teaching false doctrine, saying we cease to exist upon separation of the non-physical person from the physical body. so have you now reneged and gone back to agreeing with the absolute annihilation of all living beings?

 

[Phoneman-777]

Reasons for why the Rich Man/Lazarus is Literal or Parabolic:
Which way do the scales tip?​

I. Literal:
1) Jesus used the proper name “Lazarus”

II. Parabolic:
1) The passage is found right in the midst of several other parabolic passages (Luke 14,15,16, 17)

2) The passage begins just as Jesus' other parables, “There was a certain (rich) man” and should be immediately recognized as a parable, just as “Once upon a time” is immediately recognized as the beginning of a fairy tale

3) The passage contains highly symbolic elements which by default disqualifies it as literal

4) “Abraham's bosom” is clearly symbolic, in that it is neither heaven or hell where it is popularly but erroneously claimed the dead immediately go

5) Abraham's literal bosom can't possibly be big enough to receive all the righteous dead

6) The Rich Man, Lazarus, and Abraham have bodies with tongues, eyes, fingers, bosoms, etc., however the Bible teaches the dead do not again possess bodies until the resurrection (Philippians 3:20-21 KJV; Colossians 3:4 KJV; 1 John 3:2 KJV; 1 Corinthians 15:51-55 KJV; John 5:28-29 KJV; Job 14:12-14 KJV)

7) A person completely engulfed in flame can't carry on an intelligent conversation

8) A person completely engulfed in flame can't obtain relief from a drop of water

9) Jesus chose “Hades” instead of the fiery, burning, blazing “Gehenna” when mentioning hell

10) Scripture says the dead are buried or left unburied, not carried by angels anywhere

11) Scripture says the dead know not anything, but these dead do (Ecc. 9:5 KJV)

12) Scripture says the dead have no memory, but these dead do (Ecc. 9:5 KJV; Psalms 115:17 KJV)

13) Scripture says the dead have no emotions, but these dead do (Ecc. 9:6 KJV)

14) Scripture says the dead do not devise plans but the dead Rich Man does just that (Ecc. 9:10 KJV)

15) Scripture says the dead have no wisdom but these dead demonstrate wisdom (Ecc. 9:10 KJV)

16) Scripture says the dead go down into silence but these dead are heard talking (Psalms 115:17 KJV)

17) Scripture says the dead go down into darkness but these dead can see and be seen (Psalms 88:12 KJV)

“All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them: That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.” -- Matthew 13:34-35 KJV​

 

[Phoneman-777]

your own logic will not supply the needed understanding that you lack

arguing against the word's of Christ is your first blunder

A Soul is not an translucent apparition that flies away when we die. That is pagan doctrine that traces itself all the way back to the lying Serpent in the Garden.

 

[posthuman]

bizarre and nonsensical

We know that we have passed from death to life,
because we love the brethren.
He who does not love his brother abides in death.
(1 John 3:19) ​

 

[posthuman]

A Soul is not an translucent apparition that flies away when we die. That is pagan doctrine that traces itself all the way back to the lying Serpent in the Garden.

so now you teach that Jesus is a pagan deceiving the people telling them lies from Satan's mouth?
you know what it means when you start calling Christ a son of Belial, right?

So it was that the beggar died, ​

and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. ​

(Luke 16:22)​

​

​

​

so who do we believe, God or tele-dude?
i think this is not an hard decision.

 

[kinda]

Whoever he is, tell him "winner winner, chicken dinner!!!"

PUBG quote?

 

[Laura798]

you still do not appear to understand what you are reading.

1 Corinthians 5:2 is talking about His second coming. it does not say it is the time we will pass from death to life ((unless you have only a carnal, monistic, atheistic definition of 'death')).
is John 5:2 talking about the same thing?

Amen, Amen I say to you:​

he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life,​

and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life!​

(John 5:2)​

​

​

note that "has everlasting life" is present tense; a present & ongoing possession
note that "has passed from death into life" is past tense; a completed action.
note that "shall not come into judgement" is explicitly excluding a certain future.

do you believe what He says?



if you do not believe Christ, do you at least believe Paul?

And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins ​

(Ephesians 2:1)​

What's so astounding that you on the pagan myth of the eternal soul side think you are RIGHT, equating your view of the scriptures as 'truth' and us on the side of immortality given at Christ Second Coming as not having the 'truth'--because it doesn't agree with your false doctrine.

But you are so very wrong and are believing the lie of Satan, "You shall not surely die."

You understand right, that you are also saying the wicked have received immortality, despite the fact that the bible says eternal life is a gift given only to the believers? And you are also saying blasphemously that all people are receiving the gift of immortality before the judgment when the bible cannot be more clear--it is given at Christ's Second Coming.

There is a plethora of verses that refute the pagan myth of the immortality of the soul and that we DO NOT receive this gift until Christ's second coming. How anyone can read 1st Corinthians Chapter 15 and still come to the false conclusions you all do is incomprehensible to me.

I've used this analogy before and will use it again--John F. Kennedy Jr. was so confident in his flying skills even though he was new to it, decided not to trust the controls on his plane and had lost his sense of where he was in space--believing he was flying up, when he was actually flying down, thereby crashing into the ocean taking his young wife and sister in law with him.

You all who believe this lie of Satan are doing the exact same thing. You are practicing eisegesis--putting ON the verses what you have been taught, vs exegesis--extracting what the author was actually saying.

"Jesus said, "If you were blind, you would not be guilty of sin; but now that you claim you can see, your guilt remains. "--John 9:41

 

[Heaven_Bound]

What's so astounding that you on the pagan myth of the eternal soul side think you are RIGHT, equating your view of the scriptures as 'truth' and us on the side of immortality given at Christ Second Coming as not having the 'truth'--because it doesn't agree with your false doctrine.

But you are so very wrong and are believing the lie of Satan, "You shall not surely die."

You understand right, that you are also saying the wicked have received immortality, despite the fact that the bible says eternal life is a gift given only to the believers? And you are also saying blasphemously that all people are receiving the gift of immortality before the judgment when the bible cannot be more clear--it is given at Christ's Second Coming.

There is a plethora of verses that refute the pagan myth of the immortality of the soul and that we DO NOT receive this gift until Christ's second coming. How anyone can read 1st Corinthians Chapter 15 and still come to the false conclusions you all do is incomprehensible to me.

I've used this analogy before and will use it again--John F. Kennedy Jr. was so confident in his flying skills even though he was new to it, decided not to trust the controls on his plane and had lost his sense of where he was in space--believing he was flying up, when he was actually flying down, thereby crashing into the ocean taking his young wife and sister in law with him.

You all who believe this lie of Satan are doing the exact same thing. You are practicing eisegesis--putting ON the verses what you have been taught, vs exegesis--extracting what the author was actually saying.

"Jesus said, "If you were blind, you would not be guilty of sin; but now that you claim you can see, your guilt remains. "--John 9:41

You don't believe the Lake of Fire is Eternal and Forever?

 

[posthuman]

What's so astounding that you on the pagan myth of the eternal soul side think you are RIGHT, equating your view of the scriptures as 'truth' and us on the side of immortality given at Christ Second Coming as not having the 'truth'--because it doesn't agree with your false doctrine.

But you are so very wrong and are believing the lie of Satan, "You shall not surely die."

You understand right, that you are also saying the wicked have received immortality, despite the fact that the bible says eternal life is a gift given only to the believers? And you are also saying blasphemously that all people are receiving the gift of immortality before the judgment when the bible cannot be more clear--it is given at Christ's Second Coming.

There is a plethora of verses that refute the pagan myth of the immortality of the soul and that we DO NOT receive this gift until Christ's second coming. How anyone can read 1st Corinthians Chapter 15 and still come to the false conclusions you all do is incomprehensible to me.

I've used this analogy before and will use it again--John F. Kennedy Jr. was so confident in his flying skills even though he was new to it, decided not to trust the controls on his plane and had lost his sense of where he was in space--believing he was flying up, when he was actually flying down, thereby crashing into the ocean taking his young wife and sister in law with him.

You all who believe this lie of Satan are doing the exact same thing. You are practicing eisegesis--putting ON the verses what you have been taught, vs exegesis--extracting what the author was actually saying.

"Jesus said, "If you were blind, you would not be guilty of sin; but now that you claim you can see, your guilt remains. "--John 9:41

you seem to have an hard time understanding what i say, misrepresenting it..
i'm trying to be more simple for you:

you're equating "life" and "existence"
that is incorrect & Biblically ignorant.

bottom line is that cessation of existence upon the death of the carnal body is incompatible with scripture.
you have to call Christ a liar in order to keep that teaching ((see Luke 16)).

to be carnally minded is death, ​

but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.​

(Romans 8:6)​

 

[posthuman]

life

how does the scripture define "life" ?

 

[Laura798]

1st Corinthians Chapter 15 --if you read this and continue to believe that a person can go directly to heaven when they die, then you are willfully choosing to remain blind. (word count limit--please read the whole chapter)

1Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
5And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:
6After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.

11Therefore whether it were I or they, so we preach, and so ye believed.
12Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?
13But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:
14And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.
15Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.
16For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
17And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
18Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.
19If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
20But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

32If after the manner of men I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantageth it me, if the dead rise not? let us eat and drink; for to morrow we die.
33Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners.
34Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.
35But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
36Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
37And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:
38But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
39All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.
40There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
41There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
42So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
48As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
56The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
57But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
58Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.

 

[Laura798]

you seem to have an hard time understanding what i say, misrepresenting it..
i'm trying to be more simple for you:

you're equating "life" and "existence"
that is incorrect & Biblically ignorant.

bottom line is that cessation of existence upon the death of the carnal body is incompatible with scripture.
you have to call Christ a liar in order to keep that teaching ((see Luke 16)).

to be carnally minded is death, ​

but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.​

(Romans 8:6)​

You say I am 'misrepresenting' you? I believe it's the other way around--where did I say anything in reference to this? >cessation of existence upon the death of the carnal body. (not even sure what you're saying--i've heard of the 'carnal' nature--never heard of a carnal body.)
To call me 'ignorant' because I do not agree with your false interpretation of scripture is laughable. You are cult like in your beliefs--a clever quote I read by another user on Christian Chat speaks exactly my sentiments of you and so many others:

"A Man Convinced Against His Will Is Of The Same Opinion Still - No one wants to be wrong, and we will defend our “truth” even when THEE Truth is staring us in the face. I’ve heard people say, “My Church believed it this way, bible or no bible, it’s the truth.“