Does 1 Thessalonians 4:14-18 Teach Jesus Will Return With Dead Saints Now With Him In Heaven?

[kleronomos]

It's you who've done that, friend. God is the God of the "living" meaning those who are sleeping but will awake to heavenly glory and not suffer the Second Death. They are not in heaven now because "the dead know not anything" and "do not praise the Lord" which they'd be doing if they were not dead.

Why do you think Solomon is stupid?

Do you know anyone who doesn't believe in the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ? WELL, as the are dead now and know nothing when they die and are buried they will know nothing.

Do you know anyone who DOES believe in the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ? Well, as they are ALIVE now and know the Lord, when their flesh dies and is buried, THE WILL KNOW what they know now as they had received ETERNAL LIFE before their flesh died.

 

[1ofthem]

You think being blotted out of existence is inconsequential? That's ridiculous.

What's worse, a life sentence or capital punishment? I guess you stand outside the courthouse railing against the death penalty, right?

I'm pretty sure, there is a big difference between jail and Hell

I've never been in jail. Sure it's probably bad, but no way it could be as bad as how the scripture describes Hell.

 

[Laura798]

I've actually considered all the verses folks have given in the past and so far for annihilation. Yet never could come to that conclusion. There is too much scripture to refute it. Also, commonsense refutes it. If the punishment is just ceasing to exist. There is no actual punishment. Many folks (atheists, etc,) will get what they want.

Jesus spent so much time warning of eternal damnation/ punishment...so seems it's pretty serious to me. Not just a rest for the ungodly...they will be tormented night and day for ever.

Anyways like I said, I have tried to consider it in the past.

Went through a big, long discussion on it here before in the past. I found nothing that changed my opinion on it, but if I can find it. I'll repost some of it and give you guys a chance to try to refute it with scripture.

I have no idea how you could come to this conclusion. Seriously this makes no sense at all.

The wages of sin is death (separation from God) but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

The first death was spiritual. Adam didn't die physically the moment he ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

But...God didn't lie...Adam did die in the same moment he sinned. He died a spiritual death. He was separated from God.

Jesus came to pay the price for sin and the curse (spiritual death) if we except it...If not the second spiritual death (separation from God) is going to be eternal.

No matter how much thought and study I have put into it so far...That has been my conclusion.

But like I said, I am willing to listen. And might try to find my other posts on it...to post here and see if you guys can refute it.

God knows I don't want to be in error on something as important as this...since Jesus spent more time teaching on and warning about Hell/eternal punishment than he spent talking about Heaven.

I missed addressing this bit. You said, "I have no idea how you could come to this conclusion. Seriously this makes no sense at all."

And that is PRECISELY my point! If one believes ECT is the punishment for sin then that mean Christ didn't pay the penalty--which is plainly, clearly and REPEATEDLY told to us in scripture is DEATH--He paid the penalty by DYING in our place.

Can't you see that is my whole point? Christ suffeering ECT is what you MUST believe if you believe in ECT is the punishment for sin and not death . FYI Christ did NOT die spiritually--He died literally.

John told us in Revelation what the lake of fire literally is--it is the SECOND DEATH--this is when both body and soul are DESTROYED/OBLITERATED/ 'AS IF THEY NEVER WERE.

"Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell. "--Matthew 10:28

Eternal punishment and Eternal destruction, mean what they say--the punishment and destruction are ETERNAL--there is no coming back from them. Once done, there are done for all eternity.


This is NO spiritual death--and you will not find such an idea anywhere in scripture. When the bible says we were dead in our trespasses and sins it means we had already been sentenced with the penalty of death--a criminal may receive a death sentence, but still be alive for 50 years before the death sentence is actually carred out. This is where the term "Dead man walking" derives from. In the same manner those without faith in Christ are also 'dead men walking.
'
There's a huge problem here. It means you don't believe Death means DEATH, Destroy means DESTROY or Perish means PERISH. If you don't believe words mean what they mean then you cannot comprehend all of scriptures if words cease to mean what they actually mean.

Am I passionate about this? You bet I am. How would you feel if you had a perfect and good father and someone said he was diabolical, satanic, evil--a sadistic crazed madman--THAT is exactly what believing in ECT makes God our Heavenly Father out to be.

 

[posthuman]

And so it was, as her soul was departing (for she died),​

that she called his name Ben-Oni; but his father called him Benjamin. ​

(Genesis 35:18)
​

wonder why God says "departing" instead of "annihilated" hmm

 

[Evmur]

I'd rather be a desperado than a sadist who thinks he'll roast marshmallows off the backs of the shrieking flaming wicked for all eternity.

I believe in what is generally called the WIDER MERCY although I do believe in eternal punishment. But this is an entirely different topic to the one you raised ... I do not approve of the hell fire preaching so beloved by many.

 

[posthuman]

This is NO spiritual death--and you will not find such an idea anywhere in scripture.

**ahem**

As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins
(Ephesians 2:1) ​

 

[posthuman]

When the bible says we were dead in our trespasses and sins it means we had already been sentenced with the penalty of death

um no it means you were dead, as God defines death.

have you found the Biblical definition of life yet?
or you still going with the debased carnal atheistic evolutionary monist definition you love?

 

[kleronomos]

Proof text below that Christ is coming with ANGELS, not believers. Understand that it doesn't make sense to say Christ comes with believers since the whole point of His coming is to GATHER THEM! God is bringing with Christ the believers--another way to say it is Christ is bringing with Him the believers from earth to heaven. They are NOT coming down with him from heaven.

Satan is coming. Satan is coming to deceive. Satan is coming to OVERCOME the world.

Upon the world RIGHT NOW are billions of Christians who have not died and gone on to be with the Lord. Lets just say that Satan was kicked to the earth a while back and had deceived the world (EXCEPT THE CHRISTIANS who had put on the armor) and had now killed the two witnesses and it is 3 1/2 days later and the two witnesses rise

HERE COMES CHRIST AND ALL OF OUR BRETHREN who have died through out the last 6000 years a part of the army.

ON EARTH, are all the Christians we see today. SOME have endured to the end, have overcome the deception, have not been taken, have remained faithful to GOD, have been given up for the 10 day trial, have stood and withstood BECAUSE they put on the gospel armor, they took extra oil to keep themselves in the light (knowledge) did not go buy and sell did not take the mark of the beast. SOON, these will be the only people in the flesh on the planet earth BECAUSE all the rest, no matter who they were before Satan arrived HAVE TAKEN the mark of the beast and will now be 'Destroyed' just like Satan (except Satan bound and sealed and NOT RISING FOR 1000 years). They are THE DEAD. DEAD WHEN worshipping Satan because 'there was no LIFE (CHRIST) in them and now physically dead.

AND THE DEAD RISE FIRST

And then those who are alive and remaining are CHANGED and go to MEET UP WITH THE BRETHREN coming with Christ for the DAY in which they will rule and reign with Him for 1000 years over all those 'DEAD'.


Zechariah 14:1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.
6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:
7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.


1Thessalonians 3:12 And the Lord make you to increase and abound in love one toward another, and toward all men, even as we do toward you:
13 To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

 

[Laura798]

**ahem**

As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins ​

(Ephesians 2:1) ​

Obviously and yet again you truncate what I wrote--I am changing your screen name to 'The Truncator' from here on out.

It is exactly the same meaning as "Dead man walking" ---all who do not have faith in Christ have the penalty of death hanging over their heads. As in the expression 'you are dead where you stand.' it is a DONE deal even if you haven't actually died.

This is NOT speaking of some spiritual death--how can a person even die a spiritual death if they have never been spiritually alive to begin with?

PS You're praying bones are an apt avatar for you.

 

[posthuman]

And he stretched himself out on the child three times, and cried out to the Lord and said,
“O Lord my God, I pray, let this child’s soul come back to him.”
(1 Kings 17:21)
​

@Phoneman-777

do you ever think it's weird that God affirms over and over and over in scripture things that you call Satanic lies?

 

[posthuman]

​

Then the Lord heard the voice of Elijah; ​

and the soul of the child came back to him, and he revived.​

(1 Kings 17:22) ​

​

​

strangely God seems to think the child's soul didn't cease to exist -- but only departed.
hey @Phoneman-777 when you pray do you point out all God's errors to Him?

 

[posthuman]

​

For You will not leave my soul in Sheol, ​

nor will You allow Your Holy One to see corruption.​

(Psalm 16:10) ​

​

​

hey @Phoneman-777 why does the scripture describe the soul of one whose body has died as still having existence in Sheol?
is God a Satanic liar? that your best guess?

 

[Laura798]

Satan is coming. Satan is coming to deceive. Satan is coming to OVERCOME the world.

Upon the world RIGHT NOW are billions of Christians who have not died and gone on to be with the Lord. Lets just say that Satan was kicked to the earth a while back and had deceived the world (EXCEPT THE CHRISTIANS who had put on the armor) and had now killed the two witnesses and it is 3 1/2 days later and the two witnesses rise

HERE COMES CHRIST AND ALL OF OUR BRETHREN who have died through out the last 6000 years a part of the army.

ON EARTH, are all the Christians we see today. SOME have endured to the end, have overcome the deception, have not been taken, have remained faithful to GOD, have been given up for the 10 day trial, have stood and withstood BECAUSE they put on the gospel armor, they took extra oil to keep themselves in the light (knowledge) did not go buy and sell did not take the mark of the beast. SOON, these will be the only people in the flesh on the planet earth BECAUSE all the rest, no matter who they were before Satan arrived HAVE TAKEN the mark of the beast and will now be 'Destroyed' just like Satan (except Satan bound and sealed and NOT RISING FOR 1000 years). They are THE DEAD. DEAD WHEN worshipping Satan because 'there was no LIFE (CHRIST) in them and now physically dead.

AND THE DEAD RISE FIRST

And then those who are alive and remaining are CHANGED and go to MEET UP WITH THE BRETHREN coming with Christ for the DAY in which they will rule and reign with Him for 1000 years over all those 'DEAD'.


Zechariah 14:1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.
6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:
7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.


1Thessalonians 3:12 And the Lord make you to increase and abound in love one toward another, and toward all men, even as we do toward you:
13 To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

I don't think I need to read further.
You said, "Satan is coming. Satan is coming to deceive. Satan is coming to OVERCOME the world."

He's here NOW and he's been here since he was thrown out of heaven--In fact I see his dirty little fingerprints all over this forum. His deception and lies have infiltrated the church even before Paul was dead and buried.

And it is a lie that SATAN is coming to OVERCOME the world as you say. Clearly he is NOT--Christ is the VICTOR not Satan.

"Be of good cheer for I (Christ) have overcome the world."--Christ defeated that old serpent at the cross. Is Satan coming with one last hurrah before he is destroyed--yes at the Tribulation, but he has not and nor will ever OVERCOME the world.

 

[1ofthem]

What am I missing here folks? Jesus said it would be better to have a millstone hung about your neck and cast into the sea. In other words KILLED and/or also maimed than to go to hell.

Why if hell is just referring to a place where they burned dead bodies in Jerusalem?

That makes no sense.


Temptations and Trespasses

(Matthew 18:7-9; Luke 17:1-4)



42And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea. 43And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: 44Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. 45And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: 46Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. 47And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: 48Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

 

[posthuman]

O Lord,
You brought my soul up from the grave
(Psalm 30:3)
​

mr @Phoneman-777 why doesn't this say "you created a new soul and artificially filled it with my memories because when my body went to the grave my soul ceased to exist" ??
have you considered that maybe your human doctrine is false, and that calling God a Satanic liar is possibly a bad course of action?

i just find it weird how scripture does not comport with your weird doctrines.

 

[Laura798]

What am I missing here folks? Jesus said it would be better to have a millstone hung about your neck and cast into the sea. In other words KILLED and/or also maimed than to go to hell.

Why if hell is just referring to a place where they burned dead bodies in Jerusalem?

That makes no sense.


Temptations and Trespasses

(Matthew 18:7-9; Luke 17:1-4)



42And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea. 43And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: 44Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. 45And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: 46Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. 47And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: 48Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

It seems you aren't really reading my posts; I already explained this is figurative language. Jesus himself said he spoke using figurative language:

John 16:25“Though I have been speaking figuratively, a time is coming when I will no longer use this kind of language but will tell you plainly about my Father.

Matthew 13:34, "Jesus spoke all these things to the crowd in parables; he did not say anything to them without using a parable. "

Fire is used figuratively throughout scripture for destruction. This is evident by reading the literal verses.

It seems I have to keep repeating myself, but we must understand the difference between literal and figurative language; we must test scripture against scripture and never isolate verses as it is in the isolation of verses that ALL false doctrine derives from.

 

[posthuman]

the pagan narrative of a place of eternal torment

​

you might want to check your sources.

And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone,
where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
(Revelation 20:10)​

 

[posthuman]

​

You have delivered my soul from the depths of Sheol​

(Psalm 86:13) ​

​

​

the scripture seems weirdly consistently incompatible with the idea that the soul ceases to exist upon the death of the flesh, and that Sheol is an imaginary Satanic pagan myth.
do you not agree @Phoneman-777 ? or you still holding your position that God is a liar?

 

[Laura798]

​

you might want to check your sources.

And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, ​

where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.​

(Revelation 20:10)​

Here we go again isolating verses and using the symbolic language of Revelation, rather than testing scripture against scripture.

It is in the ISOLATION of verses that ALL FALSE DOCTRINE derives from--as you are doing here.

 

[Laura798]

​

You have delivered my soul from the depths of Sheol​

(Psalm 86:13) ​

​

​

the scripture seems weirdly consistently incompatible with the idea that the soul ceases to exist upon the death of the flesh, and that Sheol is an imaginary Satanic pagan myth.
do you not agree @Phoneman-777 ? or you still holding your position that God is a liar?

And you "The Truncator" need someone to give you a good bop on the head with one of your shin bones--what a horrible, slanderous thing to say!