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randyk

Well-known member
Jan 14, 2021
902
268
63
Pacific NW USA
#21
No --you are wrong there ----God Loves His Creation ---He wants all people to come Back to Him ------the Tribulation is being used as a tool to get people to come to their senses and realize they are sinners and they need a Saviour ----God does not Punish His Creation -----We punish ourselves by rejecting His Son and continuing in our sinful ways ----the tribulation is God's last try to save His Creation before this world ends ------
This just goes to show how much you're *not* open to real proof on a matter. I gave you the Scripture, and you just say "no," using your own rationale to dispense with it. Until you deal with what is said in my reference, we have nothing to discuss.

I see you don't know much about the 12 Tribes of Israel -----all Jews belong to one of the 12 tribes -----they are not an army at all ------your being duped by Mr Satan here -----Jacob who God called Israel had 12 Sons and they form the 12 tribes of Israel-----they are all Jews and they are spared by God through out the tribulation as He is honoring His Covenant that He made to the Jews as His Chosen nation that they would not be forgotten ------
I know way more about this than you know. I wasn't saying the 144,000 was an Army. I was just depicting them as such because that is their size--not the size of an entire nation. They are not representative of a "race," as you suggested.

The Bible is all about the Jewish Nation ------they were God's Chosen people ----and they were not Believers ---they were unbelievers that Jesus was the Messiah so God allowed the Gentile nation --NON JEWS to be included in His free gift of Salvation in hopes it would wake the Jews up to accept His Son as their Messiah ------So many of the Jews today are still unbelievers and they will go through the Tribulation ----along with all unbelieving Gentiles -----if your not born a Jew your a Gentile -----
The trouble with this is, this just isn't said here. They are sealed against the destruction of the land. They were protected. The assumption has to be that they were already God's People!

Get back with me when you want to accept what Jesus said the "Great Tribulation" was in Luke 21!
 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
7,312
2,428
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#22
This just goes to show how much you're *not* open to real proof on a matter. I gave you the Scripture, and you just say "no," using your own rationale to dispense with it. Until you deal with what is said in my reference, we have nothing to discuss.

I know way more about this than you know. I wasn't saying the 144,000 was an Army. I was just depicting them as such because that is their size--not the size of an entire nation. They are not representative of a "race," as you suggested.

The trouble with this is, this just isn't said here. They are sealed against the destruction of the land. They were protected. The assumption has to be that they were already God's People!

Get back with me when you want to accept what Jesus said the "Great Tribulation" was in Luke 21!
SudentoftheWord said all Jews were unbelievers, cancelling out the forgiveness of the sacrificial system that promised Christ, the psalms of David, the faith of Jacob. He also said the old testament was all about the Jews instead of being about God!! Poor guy. Think of the huge amount of the word he has completely missed.
 

randyk

Well-known member
Jan 14, 2021
902
268
63
Pacific NW USA
#23
SudentoftheWord said all Jews were unbelievers, cancelling out the forgiveness of the sacrificial system that promised Christ, the psalms of David, the faith of Jacob. He also said the old testament was all about the Jews instead of being about God!! Poor guy. Think of the huge amount of the word he has completely missed.
I agree that if he was saying those things, he's certainly ignored or missed lots of important material, not to mention the fact he contradicts the Scriptures. To say all Jews were unbelievers is insensible, since the Church started with the Jews, who were commanded by Christ to bring the Gospel to the world.

I do agree that the sacrificial system of the Law had promised that Christ would come, and complete the hope of Israel that had begun under the Law. And that hope was the hope for eternal life. The Law was not contrary to that hope--it just couldn't achieve it--only Christ could bring us eternal life.

To say that the entire Old Testament was all about the Jews may be a half truth. Israel was the major focus of the OT, but by no means the exclusive focus. God focused on Israel, I believe, to make them an example, a model, to the nations who would later receive the Gospel.

This wasn't just about God, as "noble" as this may sound. Of course, God's will is prioritized above all. However, it was God's will and promise to bring about salvation not just for Israel but for all nations. And this was promised and confirmed by the Prophets in the OT, well before Christ completed his own redemptive mission.

Thanks!
 

studentoftheword

Well-known member
Nov 12, 2021
1,722
596
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#24
Well, if you consider how Jesus defined the Great Tribulation, you'll see that the Great Tribulation is not for the purpose of saving, but rather, for the purpose of punishing. I'll refer you to Luke 21.20-24.
This is you taking this piece of scripture and saying it has to do with the Great Tribulation -----

This piece of Scripture you quote is all about the destruction of the Temple in AD 70 by the Romans ----it is NOT about the Great Tribulation in Revelation -----the ends times signs start at verse 25 --------see below your verses you quoted

This is that scripture and Commentary -----Luke 21;20-24


https://enduringword.com/bible-commentary/luke-21/(20-24a) To walk in these dangerous times, flee

Jerusalem when armies begin to surround it.
“But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people. And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations.”


a. But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies: This warning of Jesus, focused on the nearer aspects of the greater prophecy, were virtually ignored by the Jewish people in A.D. 70 when Roman armies circled Jerusalem.

b. Let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains: Many Jews expected the Messiah to return in glory when hostile Gentile armies surrounded Jerusalem. However, Christians in Jerusalem knew what Jesus had said and they obeyed Him, fleeing across the Jordan River mostly to Pella. Few if any Christians perished in the fall of Jerusalem.

i. The ancient Christian historian Eusebius wrote that Christians fled to Pella in response to “an oracle given by revelation” (History of the Church, 3.5.3, cited in Morris)

c. For these are the days of vengeance: The Roman conquest of Jerusalem A.D. 70 was complete. History records that 1.1 million Jews were killed and another 97,000 were taken captive in one of the worst calamities ever to strike the Jewish people. Jesus warned them to avoid it.

i. When the Romans were done with Jerusalem in A.D. 70 not a single Jew was left alive in the city. The Romans eventually renamed the city Aelia Capitolina, and for many years would not allow a Jew to even enter what was formerly known as Jerusalem, except on one day a year – the anniversary of the fall of the city and the destruction of the temple, when Jews were invited to come and mourn bitterly.

ii. “From the commencement of the history of the Jewish nation, God through His servants warned them clearly that if they behaved unfaithfully and wickedly they would reap disastrous retribution. Cf. especially the striking words of Deuteronomy 28:15-68. There is almost no form of calamity that visited the Jews during the Roman-Jewish war, not mentioned here in Deuteronomy.” (Geldenhuys)

iii. Truly Jesus meant it when He said these are the days of vengeance. This is why He wept over Jerusalem (Luke 19:41-44), because He could see the massive devastation to come upon this city He loved – and why He warned all who would listen how they could flee from the coming destruction.

8. (24b) Jerusalem will be trampled by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are over.
“And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.”


a. Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles: After the destruction of Jerusalem and the dispersion of the Jews predicted by Jesus in the previous verses, there would come a long period when Jerusalem would be dominated by Gentiles.

i. After thousands of years of exile, a Jewish state was miraculously established in Israel again in 1948. It was not until 1968 that Israel controlled Jerusalem, but still today they yield the rule and the administration of the most central piece of Jerusalem – the Temple Mount – to Gentile rule (the Palestinian Authority). It can be argued that prophetically speaking, Jerusalem is still trampled by Gentiles.

b. Until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled: When these times of the Gentiles are completed, the author believes that the remaining seven-year period appointed to the Jewish people in Daniel 9 begins. The calamities described in following verses will come in this period.

i. “The Gentiles shall not always tread down Jerusalem.” (Trapp)

ii. “It is highly likely that Jesus intended by this phrase to suggest that the moment will come when Gentiles will no longer possess Jerusalem and that when such a time is fulfilled, the nation of Israel will repossess her land.”

End time signs -----verse 25-28

9. (25-28) When the final period of calamity hits the world, look up – your redemption is on the way.
“And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars; and on the earth distress of nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring; men’s hearts failing them from fear and the expectation of those things which are coming on the earth, for the powers of heaven will be shaken. Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. Now when these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near.


I say
This says to me that you are relying on your own self when you interpret and not the Holy spirit -----

This is the 2nd time you quoted scripture that didn't say what you thought it said ------seems to me you are just grasping at straws to prove your point ------


I agree that if he was saying those things, he's certainly ignored or missed lots of important material, not to mention the fact he contradicts the Scriptures
Who is missing out on Important material -------I think it is you as you seem to be having trouble knowing what the scripture you quote is actually saying ------like I said----- Grasping at straws ----

 

randyk

Well-known member
Jan 14, 2021
902
268
63
Pacific NW USA
#25
This is you taking this piece of scripture and saying it has to do with the Great Tribulation -----

This piece of Scripture you quote is all about the destruction of the Temple in AD 70 by the Romans ----it is NOT about the Great Tribulation in Revelation -----the ends times signs start at verse 25 --------see below your verses you quoted
vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people. And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations.”


This is the 2nd time you quoted scripture that didn't say what you thought it said ------seems to me you are just grasping at straws to prove your point ------
Again, Jesus defined the Great Tribulation not just as the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple, but *also as the long Jewish exile, extending until the end of the age.*

You seem to think the "Great Tribulation" was about the Reign of Antichrist. Jesus mentioned the time of "Great Distress," or the time of "Great Tribulation" in all 3 synoptic Gospels. In none of them is the Antichrist mentioned, unless you presuppose that the "Abomination of Desolation" is the Antichrist.

But if you look at Luke's version in ch. 21, it's clear that Jesus was talking about both the destruction of the temple and the succeeding exile of the Jewish People. What made this Tribulation greater than any other *Jewish Punishment* in history is the fact that it has lasted 2000 years!

You can look long and hard to find interpretations of this on the Internet, but I look at it just the way that it is, without trying to fit my pet interpretation into it.

Luke 21.20 “When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country not enter the city. 22 For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written. 23 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! There will be great distress in the land and wrath against this people. 24 They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled. "

This says that....
1) Jerusalem is surrounded by armies and suffers desolation. This is the Abomination of Desolation. In Luke's account Jesus is recorded as saying this in exactly the same spot in the Discourse where Matthew and Mark state that it is the Abomination of Desolation! The Roman Army is the Abomination "standing in the holy place," ie in the territory of the holy city of Jerusalem. And the Roman Army "desolated" the city and the temple.

2) It is mentioned that this is "wrath against the Jewish People." The wrath is defined not just as the desolation of Jerusalem, but also as being "taken as prisoners to all the nations." And the length of this "Jewish Punishment" is explained to last until the end of the age. Indeed, the Jewish Diaspora has lasted that long!

I'm just being honest about what I think Jesus is saying here. If you want to believe otherwise, have at it! I don't think Jesus spelled out that the Abomination of Desolation was the Roman Army because he didn't want to encourage the Jewish zealots to revolt against Rome, nor did he want to invite Roman reprisals upon the Jews for looking at them as an "abomination."
 

studentoftheword

Well-known member
Nov 12, 2021
1,722
596
113
#26
YA YA ---randyk ----you can't wangle your way out of your ignorance to understanding Scripture ---with me ----good try by no cigar --

You can look long and hard to find interpretations of this on the Internet, but I look at it just the way that it is, without trying to fit my pet interpretation into it.
This your statement here is the biggest Cop Out statement ever -----so good luck with your misinterpretation of the Tribulation -----you have it -----
 

randyk

Well-known member
Jan 14, 2021
902
268
63
Pacific NW USA
#27
YA YA ---randyk ----you can't wangle your way out of your ignorance to understanding Scripture ---with me ----good try by no cigar --



This your statement here is the biggest Cop Out statement ever -----so good luck with your misinterpretation of the Tribulation -----you have it -----
Let's not fall into a tit for a tat, okay? I'm just giving you my honest, best take on it. No need for insult and anger. When people disagree, they can just agree to disagree, right?

I have no need to convince you of anything. When I do try to convince you, it's only because I think it will help you--not to prove I'm right. But if this doesn't help you, you don't have to get mad. We can just move on to another subject.
 

studentoftheword

Well-known member
Nov 12, 2021
1,722
596
113
#28
I am giving you Scripture that backs up my claims ---all you do is give scripture that doesn't have anything to do with the tribulation and you say it does when it clearly says it doesn"t----and you pick one line from the scripture and Make up your own Doctrine to suit you what you yourself think the scripture is saying -------very dangerous stuff ----

and then tell me that I am missing points ----when it is really you missing the real point of what the scripture is saying cause your interpretation comes from your own thinking ------just saying
 

loveme1

Senior Member
Oct 30, 2011
8,138
218
63
#29
So we read scripture..we speculate.. but did not even..

John also start to wonder if Jesus was the Messiah? Now John had expectations of what it was he perceived the Prophets proclaimed. We may not know the the day or hour.. but whatever comes to pass.. hold fast.

Be Faithful unto your last breath... For much deception is upon us. Those that proclaim you must follow worldly authority.... know they not the mark of the beast will be a political endorsed requirement?..

Is it not that we must build our house upon the Rock which is Christ's word..
The Lord's Testament.. for it stands the test of time.

You need no man to teach you... Seek the Truth through Faith. Denominations of the New Testament will misuse Scripture to justify universalism... But turn away and seek GOD's Truth. Our Lord and Saviour.. Son of the Almighty GOD of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.... Has a New Covenant where all that Believe shall not perish but have everlasting life. Partake not in worldly rituals..
 

randyk

Well-known member
Jan 14, 2021
902
268
63
Pacific NW USA
#30
I am giving you Scripture that backs up my claims ---all you do is give scripture that doesn't have anything to do with the tribulation and you say it does when it clearly says it doesn"t----and you pick one line from the scripture and Make up your own Doctrine to suit you what you yourself think the scripture is saying -------very dangerous stuff ----

and then tell me that I am missing points ----when it is really you missing the real point of what the scripture is saying cause your interpretation comes from your own thinking ------just saying
What is more important here is that you learn how to disagree with fellow Christians having a good spirit. That's more important than biblical agreement on every issue.

I get it that you're emotional about the need for me to agree with you. I don't. You need to accept that.
 

studentoftheword

Well-known member
Nov 12, 2021
1,722
596
113
#31
I get it that you're emotional about the need for me to agree with you. I don't. You need to accept that.
LOL ---I really don't care if you agree with me --your the one that said--you were trying to get me to side with you ---and I said you couldn't get me to do that as I only rely on the Holy Spirit not man ----

Good sparing with you though-----:)---here is the real truth ----we will all know the real truth when each of us meet and bow before our Creator on His Spiritual Domain -----
 

randyk

Well-known member
Jan 14, 2021
902
268
63
Pacific NW USA
#32
LOL ---I really don't care if you agree with me --your the one that said--you were trying to get me to side with you ---and I said you couldn't get me to do that as I only rely on the Holy Spirit not man ----

Good sparing with you though-----:)---here is the real truth ----we will all know the real truth when each of us meet and bow before our Creator on His Spiritual Domain -----
Amen. Thanks. See you on the next issue. ;)