Revelation's Mystery Author? Rev 1:1-3 suggests a third-party author

[Veridican]

Is it just me, or does anyone else get the sense that a mysterious person actually wrote Revelation? Look at 1:1. It reads:

The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant, John, (Rev 1:1, NIV 1984 ed.)

Okay...so... God gave Jesus a revelation of the things that must soon take place. Jesus then made it known to John by sending his angel to John. ...all well and good, BUT...

Who's doing the talking here? Rev 1:1-3 sounds like a third party. I'm not saying I believe this, but I started an exegesis of Revelation today, and it just popped out at me. I've never heard anyone ever suggest it before.

What is your take on it?

 

[Aaron56]

John often referred to himself in the 3rd person.

John 13:23 “One of His disciples, the one whom Jesus loved, was reclining at His side.”

 

[Veridican]

John often referred to himself in the 3rd person.

John 13:23 “One of His disciples, the one whom Jesus loved, was reclining at His side.”

Okay, but when you read that, there is no reason to assume that's John, but even if it is, that's okay because the Gospel of John is an anonymous document. No one knows who actually wrote it. The Church just ascribed that name to that Gospel hundreds of years later. So, I'm not sure that works.

Also, most scholars don't think the book of Revelation is written by the Apostle John. And that's not just a recent opinion. Martin Luther didn't think the Apostle John wrote it. The "John" of Revelation is actually, usually referred to as John the Elder or John of Patmos.

And to be quite honest, it makes my point rather mute. Even if 1-3 is a mystery third person, It doesn't really matter because Revelation, quite honestly is an anonymous document.

In fact, the oldest scrap we have of it is a bit that dates back to the 3rd century, probably around 275 AD. So, in truth, all we can really say about Revelation is that it is written by someone named John sometime before 275 AD. It may have never been circulated initially as it seems to have been found by someone: that mystery writer in 1:1-3.

But if what I'm saying hasn't irritated you too much, I will tell you why it's the greatest possible thing in the world that it is anonymous.

 

[User00]

I've been reading the bible now for I'm not even sure 12 hours straight
I've read Revelations before and it was mysterious only because there were loose ends I could tell required to read the rest of the Bible to understand
And to be honest I'm quite frightened after reading through matthew mark luke in order while comparing passages but I haven't finished Luke yet
It's not often I read that much at a time, maybe I'm just tired
I think what frightens me is how little I've known about the Bible so maybe other people notice these things too but I've never been taught these things by those I'd expect are well versed with the bible
Sorry I'm tired
Currently I don't have a set understanding to make any statements or conclusions I'm just a little afraid after what I've read

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Is it just me, or does anyone else get the sense that a mysterious person actually wrote Revelation? Look at 1:1. It reads:

The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant, John, (Rev 1:1, NIV 1984 ed.)

Okay...so... God gave Jesus a revelation of the things that must soon take place. Jesus then made it known to John by sending his angel to John. ...all well and good, BUT...

Who's doing the talking here? Rev 1:1-3 sounds like a third party. I'm not saying I believe this, but I started an exegesis of Revelation today, and it just popped out at me. I've never heard anyone ever suggest it before.

What is your take on it? View attachment 234598

“The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭1:1‬ ‭KJV‬‬

 

[Aaron56]

“The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭1:1‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Right?

I’m not sure how it could be clearer.

Btw: this is the reverse of “No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.”

In Revelation we have the Father giving it to the Son who gives it to an angel who gives it to a man. So, of course Christ knows the day and hour.

 

[Veridican]

I've been reading the bible now for I'm not even sure 12 hours straight
I've read Revelations before and it was mysterious only because there were loose ends I could tell required to read the rest of the Bible to understand
And to be honest I'm quite frightened after reading through matthew mark luke in order while comparing passages but I haven't finished Luke yet
It's not often I read that much at a time, maybe I'm just tired
I think what frightens me is how little I've known about the Bible so maybe other people notice these things too but I've never been taught these things by those I'd expect are well versed with the bible
Sorry I'm tired
Currently I don't have a set understanding to make any statements or conclusions I'm just a little afraid after what I've read

Don't be afraid. There are things, especially in the Gospels, that are never taught. You never hear a sermon on eating Jesus' flesh or hating your parents. You never hear them talk about that in John, toward the end, Jesus seems to be indicating that we will become him. Like we will be one with him. We want to make him our King, but he wants us to be a unified whole with him. Suddenly then it makes sense: eat his flesh, drink his blood--you are what you eat. Apparently, that's true spiritually speaking as well. We don't become Jesus Christ, but we become Edward Christ and User Christ. More importantly, we lose who we think we are in order to become who he is.

I'm babbling I suppose. The fact is there are lots of things you never learn in Sunday school. And the whole system is set up so you don't think you have any authority to determine what the Bible means. Even when they encourage you to read your Bible, they never really mean you should try to interpret it for yourself. They think you should leave that to them.

And keep this in mind--you can read the Bible till your eyes fall out onto the pages, but all you'll end up is some academic who knows all about the Bible, the history, the Ancient Greek language, the Hebrew culture of the first century, etc., but the mystery of it will still escape you. Jesus wasn't joking when he said we have to be like children to understand. He didn't mean stupid, he meant you can't be legalistic and academic and get what he's trying to give you.


Just remember this: When it comes to being an expert in the Gospels or Revelation, it's all a smoke screen. If you dig deep enough into the Church you will find out that there is no agreement on what atonement is, how we are saved, if Jesus is ever coming back, what the end times will be like, whether or not Jesus is actually God, what books should be in the Bible, and in all of that darkness, you will find them fighting each other. This one condemning that one to hell for heresy because this one is a post-millennial dispensationalist preterist and that one is a futurist, amillennial, post-tribulationist.

You might as well just read a chapter from Luke and decide what it means for yourself, User00. The Holy Spirit won't let you down.

 

[Nehemiah6]

Is it just me, or does anyone else get the sense that a mysterious person actually wrote Revelation? Look at 1:1.

When you go to verses 10 and 19 it becomes clear that the apostle John is the writer.
I [John] was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet...Write the things which thou [John] hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter...

So the entire Revelation (Apokalupsis) was given by God the Father to the Lord Jesus Christ. In turn He gave it to an angel to convey it to John, who then wrote it down. At the same time Christ personally commissioned him to write past, present, and future events. John was even taken to Heaven to see and hear certain things.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Right?

I’m not sure how it could be clearer.

Btw: this is the reverse of “No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.”

In Revelation we have the Father giving it to the Son who gives it to an angel who gives it to a man. So, of course Christ knows the day and hour.

he didn’t while on earth but I think what we forget is he is the father in heaven after he left earth

“I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do. And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.”
‭‭John‬ ‭17:4-5‬

Christ while on earth was in our role so he didn’t know that then he said he didn’t but when he left earth he returned to his original glory in heaven d of course knows all thkngs it’s his timing and decision alone

I think what he was saying is no ones going to “figure out “the timing that’s not disclosed to the sons of men even when Jesus was in the form of a man he was subject to our state but surely he is the father and knows all

part of the doctrine is to not know he could come tomorrow or in a thousand years so we should always be living like he’s coming soon be could at any moment it helps us stay focused on living right and keeping a healthy fear of God in life

 

[Veridican]

“The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭1:1‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Right. I'm not arguing what it says. God gave Jesus a revelation. Jesus sent an angel to "John" to relay that revelation to him, who would then relay it to us about things that are to come. I don't get what point you're trying to make buy cutting and pasting the verse back to me.

 

[Veridican]

When you go to verses 10 and 19 it becomes clear that the apostle John is the writer.
I [John] was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet...Write the things which thou [John] hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter...

So the entire Revelation (Apokalupsis) was given by God the Father to the Lord Jesus Christ. In turn He gave it to an angel to convey it to John, who then wrote it down. At the same time Christ personally commissioned him to write past, present, and future events. John was even taken to Heaven to see and hear certain things.

Again, that's not really my point. I understand that later on it becomes a first-person account by John. It's just those first three verses. They seem to be written by someone else. Like, as if I were to give you a book, and I wrote on the title page: "Here's a book by Stephen King. Hope you enjoy it."

See what I'm saying?

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Right. I'm not arguing what it says. God gave Jesus a revelation. Jesus sent an angel to "John" to relay that revelation to him, who would then relay it to us about things that are to come. I don't get what point you're trying to make buy cutting and pasting the verse back to me. View attachment 234605

you don’t see the point really ? The point was to share with you that John wrote revelation not to insult you or anything just figured by your post , you might have overlooked the fore statement telling us who the author is

no offense meant though

 

[Nehemiah6]

They seem to be written by someone else.

As another poster has said, John often referred to himself in the third person.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

As another poster has said, John often referred to himself in the third person.

seems Paul also did when regarding his apocalypse ( revelation ) as well

“I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to the third heaven.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭12:2‬ ‭KJV‬‬

 

[User00]

You might as well just read a chapter from Luke and decide what it means for yourself, User00. The Holy Spirit won't let you down. View attachment 234604

Well deciding what it means for myself is not something I'd ever want to do
The church is torn on a lot of things indeed
I'm not very versed in the scriptures or would ever pretend to be
I grew up with them and have always "thought like a child" towards it and the basics
When I read and study I always practice discernment
There's plenty I don't know so I will have to continue my studies
I guess the thing that makes me afraid is there are confusions I've encountered tonight that would introduce perspectives I have not ever heard anyone talking about to my knowledge though I'm sure it has been
If some lean towards "heresy" by the modern torn church I don't personally care, I am not the type of person who believes a different interpretation automatically deems someone unsaved example those who believe in predistantion vs dont or believe in water baptism vs dont
what I care about is God's opinion so I am treading very lightly and being careful to understand
And When I do feel I understand enough I will happily seek debate and opposing views so that I may be ever learning

Apologies again because Ive had little sleep so im not conscise

 

[User00]

Well deciding what it means for myself is not something I'd ever want to do
The church is torn on a lot of things indeed
I'm not very versed in the scriptures or would ever pretend to be
I grew up with them and have always "thought like a child" towards it and the basics
When I read and study I always practice discernment
There's plenty I don't know so I will have to continue my studies
I guess the thing that makes me afraid is there are confusions I've encountered tonight that would introduce perspectives I have not ever heard anyone talking about to my knowledge though I'm sure it has been
If some lean towards "heresy" by the modern torn church I don't personally care, I am not the type of person who believes a different interpretation automatically deems someone unsaved example those who believe in predistantion vs dont or believe in water baptism vs dont
what I care about is God's opinion so I am treading very lightly and being careful to understand
And When I do feel I understand enough I will happily seek debate and opposing views so that I may be ever learning

Apologies again because Ive had little sleep so im not conscise

and I should add a correction to "God's opinion" rather his thoughts are truth
And God is always good

 

[User00]

If you dig deep enough into the Church you will find out that there is no agreement on what atonement is, how we are saved, if Jesus is ever coming back, what the end times will be like, whether or not Jesus is actually God, what books should be in the Bible, and in all of that darkness, you will find them fighting each other. This one condemning that one to hell for heresy because this one is a post-millennial dispensationalist preterist and that one is a futurist, amillennial, post-tribulationist.

You might as well just read a chapter from Luke and decide what it means for yourself, User00. The Holy Spirit won't let you down. View attachment 234604

I apologize because you pretty much summed up what I said here and i just reiterated it

If some lean towards "heresy" by the modern torn church I don't personally care, I am not the type of person who believes a different interpretation automatically deems someone unsaved example those who believe in predistantion vs dont or believe in water baptism vs dont

The fighting and venom is very real and as mainly an observer of these forums (because Im not well spoken) I feel bewildered sometimes but Its quite easy to discern the mature and kind ones, and they are the most fruitful posters too

 

[Veridican]

you don’t see the point really ? The point was to share with you that John wrote revelation not to insult you or anything just figured by your post , you might have overlooked the fore statement telling us who the author is

no offense meant though

Okay. I just...I don't know. Even in this post, I'm not really sure what you're trying to say. Are you saying God wrote it? Are you saying Jesus wrote it?

 

[Veridican]

seems Paul also did when regarding his apocalypse ( revelation ) as well

“I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to the third heaven.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭12:2‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Yeah, I suppose it could be like that. It could just be like an extended title. But I guess it is just a third-person prologue, and you make a good point.

Of course, my point is moot anyway, because you do realize Revelation is an utterly anonymous document, just like the four Gospels. You do realize we don't know who wrote them. I've done a lot of research, and I like the way one theologian put it in regard to Revelation: All we really know is that it was written by someone who calls themselves John, and apparently John was a Christian.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Yeah, I suppose it could be like that. It could just be like an extended title. But I guess it is just a third-person prologue, and you make a good point.

Of course, my point is moot anyway, because you do realize Revelation is an utterly anonymous document, just like the four Gospels. You do realize we don't know who wrote them. I've done a lot of research, and I like the way one theologian put it in regard to Revelation: All we really know is that it was written by someone who calls themselves John, and apparently John was a Christian.

yeah we can all only express our views and understandings you know ? That’s what discussion is about we’re gonna have differing points of understanding but we can all agree on what matters .

it’s just a discussion forum here so I think it’s always good to have some different points of view as long as we understand none of us has it all right While everyone else has it wrong we’re meant to be a unit and discussion does help us move

anyways I just wanted to be clear I was never wanting to insult or disparage your post I just had though you had overlooked that one scripture was my only intent