Does 1 Thessalonians 4:14-18 Teach Jesus Will Return With Dead Saints Now With Him In Heaven?
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Why "He is the God of the living" cannot refer to "disembodied saints alive in heaven"
1 Corinthians 15:
15:16 For the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
15:17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith [is] vain; ye are yet in your sins.
15:18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.
Now, if Paul believed - as most Christians erroneously believe - that the only purpose of the resurrection is to provide disembodied saints with immortal bodies, he would have never said, “they which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. He would have said, “If the dead rise not, so what? They'll still be in heaven with Jesus, both He and they without bodies”. No, he clearly says in order for both Christ and us to go to heaven, we must be resurrected which Scripture says takes place "at the last trump", not at death. There's no other way to understand Paul's logic.
Again, in verse 32:
15:32 If after the manner of men I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantageth it me, if the dead rise not? let us eat and drink; for to morrow we die.
Again, if he believed he'd go straight to heaven after losing a battle with "beasts", he would never have said "what advantageth it me, if the dead rise not?" He would have said, "If the dead rise not, so what? I'll still go immediately to heaven and be happy with Jesus".
Pretty sure I'm basing everything on God's Word.
If the Bible writers thought they had to go out of their way to tell us that "dead bodies" lying in graves don't think, feel emotions, lay plans, have remembrance of anything, they must think humans are the stupidest of all creatures. Even prey animals know a dead predator isn't thinking about pouncing on them, but for some reason we humans can't figure out the same, right?
There is another possibility: the "dead" doesn't refer to "disembodied souls alive in heaven", but "extinction of being" for those now destined to arise in the one or the other of two resurrections.
If the Bible writers thought they had to go out of their way to tell us that "dead bodies" lying in graves don't think, feel emotions, lay plans, have remembrance of anything, they must think humans are the stupidest of all creatures. Even prey animals know a dead predator isn't thinking about pouncing on them, but for some reason we humans can't figure out the same, right?
There is another possibility: the "dead" doesn't refer to "disembodied souls alive in heaven", but "extinction of being" for those now destined to arise in the one or the other of two resurrections.
Yes, I think the fact that no resurrected person ever uttered a single word about what they were experiencing while dead speaks volumes. You'd think at least Lazarus would have said, "Hey, Jesus, thanks a lot for making me leave heaven and come back to this horrible place; I was really missing it down here".
Comforting atheists is not my goal, but giving credit where it's due is the mark of an honest man. Atheists are correct in their belief that when we die, we cease to be, but we, unlike they, look for the "blessed hope and the glorious appearing" of Jesus, while comforting each other with words of the resurrection, as directed by Paul, and not the pagan occult satanic words of "immortal soul" doctrine by him who says "thou shalt not surely die".
No, it messes with yours, for it is your theology which seeks to substantiate a doctrine on an uninterpreted parable.
Comforting atheists is not my goal, but giving credit where it's due is the mark of an honest man. Atheists are correct in their belief that when we die, we cease to be, but we, unlike they, look for the "blessed hope and the glorious appearing" of Jesus, while comforting each other with words of the resurrection, as directed by Paul, and not the pagan occult satanic words of "immortal soul" doctrine by him who says "thou shalt not surely die".
No, it messes with yours, for it is your theology which seeks to substantiate a doctrine on an uninterpreted parable.
I shared with him that the death penalty is the most severe judicial punitive consequence for a crime we have, and is why change in this sentence never involves increased severity, but reduction...but somehow the ultimate death penalty - annihilation - doesn't even register on the scales of God's justice.
I still refuse to believe that God can be said to be more just than man (Job 4:17 KJV) if even we recognize the injustice of torturing someone for all eternity for shoplifting but God says, Nah, that's cool.
I still refuse to believe that God can be said to be more just than man (Job 4:17 KJV) if even we recognize the injustice of torturing someone for all eternity for shoplifting but God says, Nah, that's cool.
FreeGrace2 said:
If your annihilation theory is correct, why would anyone fear it at all? They won't be there to experience anything. Why can't you see that?
Really? How so? Please provide a detailed explanation of why it would be "a serious thing".
If a person ceases to exist, there are NO PROBLEMS, NO WORRIES, NO SUFFERING. Why hasn't that sunk in?
You're going to have to explain how NO PROBLEMS, NO WORRIES, NO SUFFERING can be considered "punishment".
If your annihilation theory is correct, why would anyone fear it at all? They won't be there to experience anything. Why can't you see that?
Really? How so? Please provide a detailed explanation of why it would be "a serious thing".
If a person ceases to exist, there are NO PROBLEMS, NO WORRIES, NO SUFFERING. Why hasn't that sunk in?
You're going to have to explain how NO PROBLEMS, NO WORRIES, NO SUFFERING can be considered "punishment".
Don't you know that atheists, who do not believe that God exists, also do not believe that either heaven or hell exists. So your opinion is in error.
They don't want to die because they like what they are doing. At death, they assume they cease to exist. They WANT TO HAVE FUN. Ceasing to exist removes FUN.
This is really simple.
They don't want to die because they like what they are doing. At death, they assume they cease to exist. They WANT TO HAVE FUN. Ceasing to exist removes FUN.
This is really simple.
kleronomos said:
This reminds me of Job 38.
TRUE about his wisdom BUT NO WHERE does it state GOD SAID
It is about what he THINKS.
You're committing a very common error. The Bible contains the opinions of people, even people with evil thoughts.
God's Word records them. Doesn't mean those opinions or evil thoughts are divinely inspired.
This reminds me of Job 38.
TRUE about his wisdom BUT NO WHERE does it state GOD SAID
It is about what he THINKS.
You're committing a very common error. The Bible contains the opinions of people, even people with evil thoughts.
God's Word records them. Doesn't mean those opinions or evil thoughts are divinely inspired.
Yeah, the so-called "argument from silence". Listen, why would the Bible record what a person raised from the dead (not given a glorified body yet) has said? Just because that seems important to you doesn't mean it is important.
Prove that Lazarus was sleeping and unconscious for 4 days.
Well, your theories DO give them comfort.
As to being an honest man, you need to accept what Jesus said about Lazarus and the rich man. Your "parable" excuse doesn't hold water.
Paul didn't give you any rights to that idea. He clearly indicated that believers are either absent from the Lord or absent from the body.
Souls don't sleep. When a human body dies, the Bible sometimes uses the euphemism of "death" to describe it.
But, there is NO PLACE in the Bible that speaks of a soul sleeping. None.
Prove that Lazarus was sleeping and unconscious for 4 days.
Well, your theories DO give them comfort.
As to being an honest man, you need to accept what Jesus said about Lazarus and the rich man. Your "parable" excuse doesn't hold water.
Paul didn't give you any rights to that idea. He clearly indicated that believers are either absent from the Lord or absent from the body.
Souls don't sleep. When a human body dies, the Bible sometimes uses the euphemism of "death" to describe it.
But, there is NO PLACE in the Bible that speaks of a soul sleeping. None.
And I explained to YOU that your comparison fails. Humans fear physical death because they don't know what's next. Or the pain involved in dying by certain means.
If everyone believed that one simply ceases to exist at death, there would be a whole lot more suicides, and and a whole lot less fear.
You really just don't understand this.
God isn't torturing anyone. They are torturing themselves. As I've already explained.
Your whole theory is based on the LoF being a punishment or torture. Not true. Rev 20:15 tells us exactly WHY people will be cast into the LoF. They didn't have eternal life. It's that simple. If the LoF is a punishment, then God would be judging people's sins TWICE.
And that, wouldn't be fair. So get your facts straight.
According to Rom 1:19-21, no one has any excuse for NOT recognizing the existence of God as Creator and being thankful to Him.
Since Jesus died for all the sins of mankind, no one CAN be punished for them. They have already been put on Christ, and He took the punishment or judgment.
So, think of the LoF as a place that people choose for, either actively or passively.
Doesn't matter which way. Those who don't recognize God as Creator and are NOT thankful to him have no excuse, and have rejected the free gift of eternal life, or simply weren't interested in it.
And there is no other location in eternity for them to go. They put themselves there by their own actions.
They have no one to blame but themselves. For eternity. They will be torturing themselves. God won't.
God gives everyone every opportunity to come to faith. Those who don't have no excuse.
If everyone believed that one simply ceases to exist at death, there would be a whole lot more suicides, and and a whole lot less fear.
You really just don't understand this.
God isn't torturing anyone. They are torturing themselves. As I've already explained.
Your whole theory is based on the LoF being a punishment or torture. Not true. Rev 20:15 tells us exactly WHY people will be cast into the LoF. They didn't have eternal life. It's that simple. If the LoF is a punishment, then God would be judging people's sins TWICE.
And that, wouldn't be fair. So get your facts straight.
According to Rom 1:19-21, no one has any excuse for NOT recognizing the existence of God as Creator and being thankful to Him.
Since Jesus died for all the sins of mankind, no one CAN be punished for them. They have already been put on Christ, and He took the punishment or judgment.
So, think of the LoF as a place that people choose for, either actively or passively.
Doesn't matter which way. Those who don't recognize God as Creator and are NOT thankful to him have no excuse, and have rejected the free gift of eternal life, or simply weren't interested in it.
And there is no other location in eternity for them to go. They put themselves there by their own actions.
They have no one to blame but themselves. For eternity. They will be torturing themselves. God won't.
God gives everyone every opportunity to come to faith. Those who don't have no excuse.
When they die, they go to hades which is a place of firery torment. That's punishment by fire so our doctrines have that in common. According to the story about the rich man, he knew of Abraham's bosom and where Lazarus went, so the unsaved dead will also be aware that heaven is real, the afterlife is real and they made the wrong choice. That's another form of torment. Then they will also be facing the GWTJ and being killed in the second death would be even more spiritual and mental torment to know that is coming. Sure, being destroyed will end their torments and that is because God is a God of love and fair judgment and fair punishment.
There is only one verse in the entire bible that says anything about torment forever, and it says that about the beast, false prophet and the devil not anyone else and even that language is very likely a figure of speech because similar language regarding fire burning forever are not actually still burning and hurting people.
There is only one verse in the entire bible that says anything about torment forever, and it says that about the beast, false prophet and the devil not anyone else and even that language is very likely a figure of speech because similar language regarding fire burning forever are not actually still burning and hurting people.
This is just maudlin sentimentality. Nothing more.
God is fair and just. He created 2 locations for eternity. One for the saved and one for the devil, and unsaved. That's it. Prove me wrong if I am. Those who never received eternal life have NO WHERE ELSE TO GO except the LoF.
Sure. Just 'splain it all away, so as to preserve your theories.
Truth only requires 1 statement. Not a whole bunch, as if 1 or 2 aren't enough.
And immediately following that "one verse" (Rev 20:10) we have the GWT judgment where ALL the people are cast into that SAME LoF.
It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that all the people at the GWT will get the same treatment as the devil the beast and the FP.
God is fair and just. He created 2 locations for eternity. One for the saved and one for the devil, and unsaved. That's it. Prove me wrong if I am. Those who never received eternal life have NO WHERE ELSE TO GO except the LoF.
Sure. Just 'splain it all away, so as to preserve your theories.
Truth only requires 1 statement. Not a whole bunch, as if 1 or 2 aren't enough.
And immediately following that "one verse" (Rev 20:10) we have the GWT judgment where ALL the people are cast into that SAME LoF.
It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that all the people at the GWT will get the same treatment as the devil the beast and the FP.
I would like anyone from the "soul sleeper" group to explain a verse.
1 Thess 3-
13 Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope.
14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him.
15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.
16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.
OK, v.13 describes believers "who sleep in death".
But, v.14 says "that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him".
So, how does that work? If all souls are sleeping in the grave, how can God "bring with Jesus" the sleepers.
v.17 says the living believers will be caught up together with them (the so-called sleepers). So how do they get UP so as to be brought with Jesus back to earth?
As far as I recall, this passage has not been discussed. And it is very important to the discussion.
1 Thess 3-
13 Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope.
14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him.
15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.
16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.
OK, v.13 describes believers "who sleep in death".
But, v.14 says "that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him".
So, how does that work? If all souls are sleeping in the grave, how can God "bring with Jesus" the sleepers.
v.17 says the living believers will be caught up together with them (the so-called sleepers). So how do they get UP so as to be brought with Jesus back to earth?
As far as I recall, this passage has not been discussed. And it is very important to the discussion.