Does 1 Thessalonians 4:14-18 Teach Jesus Will Return With Dead Saints Now With Him In Heaven?

[Phoneman-777]

​

According to the "soul sleepers", the statement should be:

"He is the God of the sleeping". Wouldn't that be more accurate to your claims?

"God of the living" must include those who are "dead in Christ" as their God, as well, as evidenced by Jesus' words: "He that believeth in Me, though he were dead, yet shall he live."

Since the dead in Christ can't go to heaven before the resurrection, what else could "dead in Christ" refer to except those who are dead but accounted as worthy of life in the Resurrection of the Just?

 

[Phoneman-777]

You're committing a very common error. The Bible contains the opinions of people, even people with evil thoughts. God's Word records them. Doesn't mean those opinions or evil thoughts are divinely inspired.

I would hardly count Solomon's words or Paul's words as "opinion", especially when Solomon's are specifically said to be "acceptable words", not rejectable, and Paul's words are consider to be among "the other Scriptures".

 

[peldom10]

FreeGrace2 said:
When "death" is understood as a separation, yes.

Physical death is the separation of soul and body. James 2:26 addresses this.

Spiritual death is the separation of person and God. So "eternal death" is simply eternal separation from God.

See? You are confused. I gave the example of physical death, noted in James 2:26. It's NOT "general". It's specific.

But confused people will have struggles.

You need to block the mirror on your wall.

 

[peldom10]

"God of the living" must include those who are "dead in Christ" as their God, as well, as evidenced by Jesus' words: "He that believeth in Me, though he were dead, yet shall he live."

Since the dead in Christ can't go to heaven before the resurrection, what else could "dead in Christ" refer to except those who are dead but accounted as worthy of life in the Resurrection of the Just?

Not in spiritual life.

 

[Phoneman-777]

Yeah, the so-called "argument from silence".

Yes, my argument proves what the Bible says of the dead: they are in silence. Your argument seeks to proves they're noisier than a kid with a gas powered harmonica.

Listen, why would the Bible record what a person raised from the dead (not given a glorified body yet) has said?

It wouldn't if the dead had ceased to exist until the resurrection, right? Yes, that EXACTLY what we'd expect.

Prove that Lazarus was sleeping and unconscious for 4 days.

OK.
"Our friend Lazarus sleepeth."
"The living know that they shall die, but the dead know not anything".
"The dead praise not the Lord, neither any that go down into silence."
"His breath goeth forth, his body returneth to the Earth, in that very day his thoughts perish."
"Neither have they any more a reward, for the memory of them is forgotten."
"Shall Thy wonders be known in the dark, and Thy righteousness in the land of forgetfulness?"
"They (the dead) shall not be raised out of their sleep...his sons come to honor and he knoweth it not; they are brought low and he perceiveth it not of them".
So easy to disprove "immortal soul" nonsense

Well, your theories DO give them comfort.

Your unBiblical view is why people can't reconcile a "God of love" with "your God of despotic instanity". Any atheist pressed far enough will eventually tell you the reason they hate God is because of "eternal torment" doctrine. I hear it all the time.

As to being an honest man, you need to accept what Jesus said about Lazarus and the rich man. Your "parable" excuse doesn't hold water.

Jesus said Lazarus was dead and likened it to being asleep. In sleep, we are unconscious and unaware of what's going on. You guys teach we're not only aware of everything happening around us, but also walking around nekkid as the Emperor in new clothes.

Paul didn't give you any rights to that idea. He clearly indicated that believers are either absent from the Lord or absent from the body.

What about "naked' and "unclothed" which is neither down here or up there? You guys NEVER address that because it destroys the false narrative of "immortal soul" doctrine: Paul says we're either down here in our earthly body, up there in our resurrection body, or "naked and unclothed" which can only refer to the intermediate state of "lying dead in grave without a body.

But, there is NO PLACE in the Bible that speaks of a soul sleeping. None.

According to Leviticus 20:6 KJV, a "soul" is a "person" like David who prayed that he would not sleep the sleep of death, and Lazarus who Jesus said "sleepeth". Care to try again?

 

[Phoneman-777]

When "death" is understood as a separation, yes.

When the "immortal soul" crowd understands that death is the cessation of life, not a continuation thereof, they'll understand they've been believing the lie of the Serpent who told the very first lie in Scripture: "thou shalt not surely die".

 

[Phoneman-777]

Not in spiritual life.

Physically dead but "reckoned alive" by the same God Who promises to resurrect them, right?

 

[Phoneman-777]

And I explained to YOU that your comparison fails. Humans fear physical death because they don't know what's next. Or the pain involved in dying by certain means.

In the early '90s, my dad told me he was arguing with a stubborn "immortal soul" antinomianist believer like you who kept arguing and arguing until finally he told her, "You don't really believe what you claim! If you really believed we don't have to keep the Ten Commandments and at death we go straight to heaven, why are you still down here in this miserable place? Why not just take a gun and shoot your family then yourself and then all of your can go be with Jesus in paradise?"

(Of course, he didn't want her to harm anyone or herself, just to prove how she really didn't believe what she claimed)

Then, to drive the point home he said, "Those people believed Jesus was in a spaceship in the tail of that comet, and they acted on their faith!"

 

[kleronomos]

Pretty sure I'm basing everything on God's Word.

Basing everything on words written IN Gods word, but NOT Gods words. Big difference.

JOB tells us for sure not everything written is NOT of God. But it is ALL written to TEACH us what to look out for and how much deception can sound like the truth. Did you find a verse in Eccl that say 'saith the Lord' or anything to that effect?

That's like taking something out of the book of Job and teaching it's Truth when in fact you best be sure you know who is speaking....GODS REACTION

Job 38:1 Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said,

2 Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?

3 Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou Me.

4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.

5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?

6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;

7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

The sons of God WATCHING the earth being created? I'd almost be willing to bet that was before iniquity was found in Satan.

 

[Adstar]

Before the question can be answered, we must first understand the importance of “Hebrew Chiastic Structure”. A “chiasm” is a form of Hebrew poetry where not words, but ideas, are rhymed. It's a literary device in which the ideas are arranged as “ABXBA”, “ABBA”, “ABAB”, or other variations. Chiasms are extremely important to hermeneutics because they are “guideposts” which help us to determine if our interpretations are on track or way off course because correct interpretations leave the chiasms intact, while incorrect interpretations destroy them. Many false ideas, especially eschatological ideas, stem from Bible "scholars" ignoring chiasms within the texts. Here are two examples of a chiasm from Psalms 33, the entirely of which is one chiasm after another:

Psalms 33:6 KJV
A. Word of the Lord
B. Heavens
B. Host of them
A. Breath of His mouth

Psalms 33:9 KJV
A. He spake
B. it was done
A. He commanded
B. it stood fast

That said, now let's examine 1 Thessalonians 4:14 KJV:
“For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus
will God bring with Him”.
​

Can you recognize the chiasm? Here it is:
A. Jesus died (death)
B. rose again (resurrection)
A. sleep in Jesus (death)
B. will God bring forth from death (resurrection)

How do we know “bring” refers to “bring forth from death” and not “bring from heaven back to Earth”? Because this interpretation leaves the chiasm intact (“ABAB”) while the popular yet erroneous interpretation “bring from heaven back to Earth” destroys the chiasm (“ABA--”).

Another reason we know is that the emphasis of the entire passage of 1 Thessalonians 4:14-18 KJV focuses on the fate of the dead saints, not the Second Coming. Paul's message here is to the bereaved Thessalonian saints who are concerned about what happened to their dearly departed loved ones, and with it he assures them that they are sleeping in Jesus, they will wake at the sound of Lord's shout, voice, and trumpet and rise forth from death, and they will be caught up to Jesus in the clouds first, followed by “we that are alive and remain”.

Finally, the very last thing Paul told these bereaved Thessalonians saints is that they were to “comfort one another with these words”, but with what words? That the dead are in heaven? No! With words of the resurrection. Paul wants all Christians to know that just as surely as God brought Jesus forth from the dead, so God will bring the sleeping saints forth from death "with Him", or "in like manner".

The passage does not say the Saints will be coming from Heaven.. That is a word injected by people into this passage of scripture..

(1 Thessalonians 4:14-17) "For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. {15} For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. {16} For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: {17} Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

 

[kleronomos]

9:20 And was captured the beast and with him the false prophet the having done the signs before him by which he deceived those having received the mark of the beast and those worshiping the image of it living were cast the two into the lake of fire burning with brimstone

20:10 And the devil the deceiving them was cast into the lake of fire and of sulfur where also the beast and the false prophet and they will be tormented day and night to the ages of the ages

This verse tells us EXACTLY WHO will be tormented day and night to the ages of ages and that is the devil, the beast and the false prophet.

Is it written that OTHERS (besides those 3) receive this same sentence? I could understand this for hem but until I see the same thing with the same clarity written for souls, I will stick with what I believe because I believe that GOD is longsuffering and He is going to have no problem letting the past go and He is full of mercy and the choice isn't life or eternal torment but life or death


Deuteronomy 30:17 But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them;
18 I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, and that ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it.
19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
20 That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.


MAYBE WE ARE BEING TESTED RIGHT NOW
Matthew 7:1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
Matthew 7:2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

 

[kleronomos]

In the early '90s, my dad told me he was arguing with a stubborn "immortal soul" antinomianist believer like you who kept arguing and arguing until finally he told her, "You don't really believe what you claim! If you really believed we don't have to keep the Ten Commandments and at death we go straight to heaven, why are you still down here in this miserable place? Why not just take a gun and shoot your family then yourself and then all of your can go be with Jesus in paradise?"

(Of course, he didn't want her to harm anyone or herself, just to prove how she really didn't believe what she claimed)

Then, to drive the point home he said, "Those people believed Jesus was in a spaceship in the tail of that comet, and they acted on their faith!"

Found this. Before the work on the cross in my opinion, but since I told you about ECCL being a mans position, I have to put this forth.

Psalm 6:1 O LORD, rebuke me not in thine anger, neither chasten me in thy hot displeasure.

Psalm 6:2 Have mercy upon me, O LORD; for I am weak: O LORD, heal me; for my bones are vexed.

Psalm 6:3 My soul is also sore vexed: but thou, O LORD, how long?

Psalm 6:4 Return, O LORD, deliver my soul: oh save me for thy mercies' sake.

Psalm 6:5 For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?

Psalm 6:6 I am weary with my groaning; all the night make I my bed to swim; I water my couch with my tears.

Psalm 6:7 Mine eye is consumed because of grief; it waxeth old because of all mine enemies.

Psalm 6:8 Depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity; for the LORD hath heard the voice of my weeping.

Psalm 6:9 The LORD hath heard my supplication; the LORD will receive my prayer.

Psalm 6:10 Let all mine enemies be ashamed and sore vexed: let them return and be ashamed suddenly.

 

[Phoneman-777]

Basing everything on words written IN Gods word, but NOT Gods words. Big difference.

JOB tells us for sure not everything written is NOT of God. But it is ALL written to TEACH us what to look out for and how much deception can sound like the truth. Did you find a verse in Eccl that say 'saith the Lord' or anything to that effect?

That's like taking something out of the book of Job and teaching it's Truth when in fact you best be sure you know who is speaking....GODS REACTION

Job 38:1 Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said,

2 Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?

3 Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou Me.

4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.

5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?

6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;

7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

The sons of God WATCHING the earth being created? I'd almost be willing to bet that was before iniquity was found in Satan.

I get what you're saying. "Thou shalt not surely die" is in God's word, as well as "Is this not great Babylon which I have built by my might and power" and "It is not the voice of a man, but of God".

The texts upon which my spiritual propositions rest are anything but these kind. I mean, can anyone argue against the word of Solomon? It seems the answer is yes.

 

[kleronomos]

Revelation 22:7 Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.

8 And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.

9 Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.

 

[kleronomos]

I think the problems come about when we are trying to go from what was in effect under the first covenant with what is in effect under the second.

Before Christ in the graves they were. Hence the need for Christ.

After Christ, the graves were opened and those who received the gift of Salvation use it immediately to pass through and go to the place prepared for us to be with Him where he is. Those who didn't are in torment until the lake of fire the 2nd death that kills the body and soul in hell

 

[Phoneman-777]

The passage does not say the Saints will be coming from Heaven.. That is a word injected by people into this passage of scripture..

(1 Thessalonians 4:14-17) "For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. {15} For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. {16} For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: {17} Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

Amen, they are coming forth from the grave "with Jesus" or "in like manner" as He came forth. The entire point of this passage of Paul is about the hope of the resurrection of the saints, not fables about saints already in heaven, which he again emphasizes in 1 Corinthians 15, saying, "For if the dead rise not, then Christ also is not raised, and if Christ is not raised, your faith is in vain, ye are dead in your sins. Then they also which are asleep in Christ are perished".

Now, if Paul thought as Christians do today -- which is the only point of the resurrection is a celestial fashion show where saints in heaven come back here to put on designer immortal bodies -- then Paul would have never said all that: he'd have said, "If the dead rise not, NO BIG DEAL, because Jesus and the saints will still go to heaven when they died without their resurrection bodies, floating around disembodied and having a "halleluiah time" . No, Paul understood if the dead don't rise with their immortal bodies they are perished which proves they aren't in heaven now, and won't be until they come up in the resurrection.

 

[Phoneman-777]

Found this. Before the work on the cross in my opinion, but since I told you about ECCL being a mans position, I have to put this forth.

Psalm 6:1 O LORD, rebuke me not in thine anger, neither chasten me in thy hot displeasure.

Psalm 6:2 Have mercy upon me, O LORD; for I am weak: O LORD, heal me; for my bones are vexed.

Psalm 6:3 My soul is also sore vexed: but thou, O LORD, how long?

Psalm 6:4 Return, O LORD, deliver my soul: oh save me for thy mercies' sake.

Psalm 6:5 For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?

Psalm 6:6 I am weary with my groaning; all the night make I my bed to swim; I water my couch with my tears.

Psalm 6:7 Mine eye is consumed because of grief; it waxeth old because of all mine enemies.

Psalm 6:8 Depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity; for the LORD hath heard the voice of my weeping.

Psalm 6:9 The LORD hath heard my supplication; the LORD will receive my prayer.

Psalm 6:10 Let all mine enemies be ashamed and sore vexed: let them return and be ashamed suddenly.

I'm familiar with the "before the Cross/after the Cross" theory, but don't subscribe. David's not risen, Paul says he'd get his crown "at His appearing", Paul also said if the dead in Christ don't rise, they are "perished", etc., as well as other proof texts showing that the Cross had no impact on this subject, and is why the Protestant church sang "When the Saints go marching in" collectively, instead of "When the saint goes marching in" individually at each one's death.

 

[Rondonmon]

Oh, that's funny.

Can you quote any verse that shows Jesus taking resurrected and raptured people to heaven?

No, you can't. So please don't preach to us.

I fully understand the pretrib rapture. I was raised on it. But now I know the truth. Jesus doesn't take anyone to heaven in their glorified bodies just before the Trib, or even after the Trib.

But you are free to change my mind with a verse that makes a pretrib rapture clear and unambiguous.

Wats funny is you are a Christian and you can't add 2 + 2 = 4. Then if someone takes the time t explain it you run and hide from the facts, I see it being rather chicken to not rebut an answer but you guys do it all the time, just like Dems, it doesn't matter that they stated 2, 3 ad 5 years ago that nuking the Filibuster was was Evil, a travesty on this nation etc. etc. 48 of the 50 want to do away with the 60 vote procedural rule for one reason, they understand f ty can Federalize to Elections they can create a National California where they can steal elections in all 50 states. Of course this has nothing to do with the original point, except they reuse to answer a question about why they are for this now but was against it just a few years back, they always ignore the questions.

What I will do, is I will get on here tomorrow and DESTROY all of you guys talkin points and you will all play like you never heard anything. A week later you will be back espousing you disproved theories on here.

I actually have no Eschatological Respect for people who cant see the Pre Trib, I didn't say no respect as a Christian, you can love God with all your hearts and e duped on Eschatology, because most of you are not qualified, because you were never called unto this field by Gid it start with. I destroy this thinking and a month later ty all come back and restart their bad theories.

 

[ewq1938]

I actually have no Eschatological Respect for people who cant see the Pre Trib.

Have you improved your hydration issue?

 

[Evmur]

Because they are only dead physically. They are still alive as soul and spirit. They are resurrected to be judged whole, as a complete person and to die and be destroyed.

... ok but let's wait for the judgement ... I do not believe, and I don't think a careful study actually shows, that it is as black and white as that.

That they exist still in consciousness some are dead and some alive ... there is nothing to show that the beggar in the Lazarus and Dives parable was saved before he died yet he was carried into Abraham's bosom.

What is true is that we await the redemption of our bodies, we wait to be clothed.