Ham

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Pilgrimshope

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Sep 2, 2020
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#21
I always related the third part of men dying to the third of angels that fell
yeah I think so too but I think we see a third part of man cursed right there also sort of seems to tie in but I was just saying I find it interesting a third of all creation really ties together

“Now these are the generations of the sons of Noah, Shem, Ham, and Japheth: and unto them were sons born after the flood.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭10:1‬ ‭KJV‬‬

They were where all Man came from at this point. And a third of them were cursed through hams transgression is all I was getting at seems interesting
 

VineyardsOfEngedi

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Nov 26, 2019
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#23
Interesting to get different responses from one verse. So many different insights, soo cool :D
 

ewq1938

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#24
And a third of them were cursed through hams transgression is all I was getting at seems interesting
There is no such thing as "Ham's transgression" in the passage.
 

Pilgrimshope

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#25
There is no such thing as "Ham's transgression" in the passage.
really lol ?

“And Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father, and told his two brethren without.

( watch what the other two do )

And Shem and Japheth took a garment, and laid it upon both their shoulders, and went backward, and covered the nakedness of their father; and their faces were backward, and they saw not their father's nakedness.


( now watch what happens )

And Noah awoke from his wine, and knew what his younger son had done unto him.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭9:22-24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

that’s why Canaan was cursed because of what ham did to Noah he saw his drunk father naked and went and spread the news to his brothers that is a transgression against his father he dishonored his father isn’t that a commandment ? I think it is obviously though ham transgressed against Noah me his line was cursed but yeah I guess there’s no transgression and it’s a big mystery why Canaan was cursed …….
 

ewq1938

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#26
that’s why Canaan was cursed because of what ham did to Noah he saw his drunk father naked and went and spread the news to his brothers that is a transgression against his father he dishonored his father isn’t that a commandment ?
You have it all wrong. Seeing his nakedness wasn't the sin. Uncovering the nakedness is the sin. Getting help from your brothers is also not a sin.




I think it is obviously though ham transgressed against Noah me his line was cursed but yeah I guess there’s no transgression and it’s a big mystery why Canaan was cursed …….
No mystery. Canaan was cursed because he was guilty party.
 

VineyardsOfEngedi

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Nov 26, 2019
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#27
You have it all wrong. Seeing his nakedness wasn't the sin. Uncovering the nakedness is the sin. Getting help from your brothers is also not a sin.






No mystery. Canaan was cursed because he was guilty party.
Boy, I can't imagine how Ham felt knowing what his son had done. :(:cry: I wonder if Canaan repented.
 

ewq1938

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#28
Boy, I can't imagine how Ham felt knowing what his son had done.

And possibly seeing the crime actually happening. No wonder his brothers were so careful not to see what Ham saw.
 

VineyardsOfEngedi

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Nov 26, 2019
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#29
And possibly seeing the crime actually happening. No wonder his brothers were so careful not to see what Ham saw.
:( why wouldn't he stop it? and why did you erase the last bit of my previous post?
 

Lafftur

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2017
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#30
.



It's apparently God's sovereign prerogative to slam not only the sinner, but
also the sinner's posterity.


For example: all of Adam's posterity is doomed to death because of his
tasting the forbidden fruit (Rom 5:12) and David's little boy was doomed
because of his papa's murderous tryst with another man's wife. (2Sam 12:14)


It is my sincere conviction that the Jews who perished in the Holocaust did
so not especially because of their own sins, but primarily because of the
accumulation of sins committed by their ancestors.


Ex 34:6-7 . . Then The Lord passed by in front of Moses and proclaimed:
The Lord, The Lord God, compassionate and gracious, slow to anger, and
abounding in loving-kindness and truth; who keeps loving-kindness for
thousands, who forgives iniquity, transgression and sin; yet He will by no
means leave the guilty unpunished: visiting the iniquity of fathers on the
children and on the grandchildren to the third and fourth generations.
_
Sin passes generationally because “life” is in the blood which contains DNA the foundational building blocks of each person and they receive their foundation from their parents.

However, there are also SPIRITUAL DNA FOUNDATIONAL Life Building Blocks that we receive from Jesus Christ which override our birth foundational building blocks…kinda like a “second chance” with a relationship with God.

Life is All about a relationship with God and each other and ourselves.
 

ewq1938

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Oct 18, 2018
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#31
:( why wouldn't he stop it? and why did you erase the last bit of my previous post?

I edit out things I am not responding to. Why not stop it? I think it likely did stop when he accidentally saw what was happening. Perhaps he heard strange noises and investigated.
 
Jan 5, 2022
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"A higher plane," hehe
www.youtube.com
#32
Gen_9:18 And the sons of Noah, that went forth of the ark, were Shem, and Ham, and Japheth: and Ham is the father of Canaan.

Seems a bit odd that we are told here that Ham is the father of Canaan. IMO this tells me something important about Canaan is going to be revealed.

Gen 9:19 These are the three sons of Noah: and of them was the whole earth overspread.
Gen 9:20 And Noah began to be an husbandman, and he planted a vineyard:
Gen 9:21 And he drank of the wine, and was drunken; and he was uncovered within his tent.
Gen 9:22 And Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father, and told his two brethren without.

Again, we are told that Ham is the father of Canaan. Someone uncovered Noah in verse 21, then someone, Ham, saw it. He sought the help of his two older brothers.

Gen 9:23 And Shem and Japheth took a garment, and laid it upon both their shoulders, and went backward, and covered the nakedness of their father; and their faces were backward, and they saw not their father's nakedness.

The brothers walked backwards so they would not see what Ham saw. Why didn't Ham do this? I believe he was traumatized by what he saw and his brothers were so afraid of seeing it as well that they walked backwards so as to not see what Ham saw and cover this nakedness.

Keep in mind what uncovering a man's nakedness actually means:

Lev 18:5 Ye shall therefore keep my statutes, and my judgments: which if a man do, he shall live in them: I am the LORD.
Lev 18:6 None of you shall approach to any that is near of kin to him, to uncover their nakedness: I am the LORD.
Lev 18:7 The nakedness of thy father, or the nakedness of thy mother, shalt thou not uncover: she is thy mother; thou shalt not uncover her nakedness.
Lev 18:8 The nakedness of thy father's wife shalt thou not uncover: it is thy father's nakedness.


K&D commentary on the OT

"The laws against incest are introduced in Lev_18:6 with the general prohibition, descriptive of the nature of this sin, “None of you shall approach to any flesh of his flesh, to uncover nakedness.” The difference between flesh, and flesh, is involved in obscurity, as both words are used in connection with edible flesh (see the Lexicons). “Flesh of his flesh” is a flesh that is of his own flesh, belongs to the same flesh as himself (Gen_2:24), and is applied to a blood-relation, blood-relationship being called (or flesh-kindred) in Hebrew (Lev_18:17). Sexual intercourse is called uncovering the nakedness of another (Eze_16:36; Eze_23:18). The prohibition relates to both married and unmarried intercourse, though the reference is chiefly to the former (see Lev_18:18; Lev_20:14, Lev_20:17, Lev_20:21). Intercourse is forbidden (1) with a mother, (2) with a step-mother, (3) with a sister or half-sister, (4) with a granddaughter, the daughter of either son or daughter, (5) with the daughter of a step-mother, (6) with an aunt, the sister of either father or mother, (7) with the wife of an uncle on the father's side, (8) with a daughter-in-law, (9) with a sister-in-law, or brother's wife, (10) with a woman and her daughter, or a woman and her granddaughter, and (11) with two sisters at the same time."

Lev 20:11 And the man that lieth with his father's wife hath uncovered his father's nakedness: both of them shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.



Gen 9:24 And Noah awoke from his wine, and knew what his younger son had done unto him.

In the Hebrew this can also mean "younger grandson", who would be Canaan.


Gen 9:25 And he said, Cursed be Canaan; a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren.


For committing this evil act, Canaan is rightly cursed. Ham is one of the victims here, not a guilty party. Ham is the father of the evil-doer, Canaan.
So to summarize... Noah was drunk and Canaan took advantage of that to sodomize him?

It's an interesting view, and I did always wonder how Noah just immediately woke up and knew something had been done to him and who did it.
 

ewq1938

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Oct 18, 2018
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#33
So to summarize... Noah was drunk and Canaan took advantage of that to sodomize him?

No:

Lev 18:5 Ye shall therefore keep my statutes, and my judgments: which if a man do, he shall live in them: I am the LORD.
Lev 18:6 None of you shall approach to any that is near of kin to him, to uncover their nakedness: I am the LORD.
Lev 18:7 The nakedness of thy father, or the nakedness of thy mother, shalt thou not uncover: she is thy mother; thou shalt not uncover her nakedness.
Lev 18:8 The nakedness of thy father's wife shalt thou not uncover: it is thy father's nakedness.


K&D commentary on the OT

"The laws against incest are introduced in Lev_18:6 with the general prohibition, descriptive of the nature of this sin, “None of you shall approach to any flesh of his flesh, to uncover nakedness.” The difference between flesh, and flesh, is involved in obscurity, as both words are used in connection with edible flesh (see the Lexicons). “Flesh of his flesh” is a flesh that is of his own flesh, belongs to the same flesh as himself (Gen_2:24), and is applied to a blood-relation, blood-relationship being called (or flesh-kindred) in Hebrew (Lev_18:17). Sexual intercourse is called uncovering the nakedness of another (Eze_16:36; Eze_23:18). The prohibition relates to both married and unmarried intercourse, though the reference is chiefly to the former (see Lev_18:18; Lev_20:14, Lev_20:17, Lev_20:21). Intercourse is forbidden (1) with a mother, (2) with a step-mother, (3) with a sister or half-sister, (4) with a granddaughter, the daughter of either son or daughter, (5) with the daughter of a step-mother, (6) with an aunt, the sister of either father or mother, (7) with the wife of an uncle on the father's side, (8) with a daughter-in-law, (9) with a sister-in-law, or brother's wife, (10) with a woman and her daughter, or a woman and her granddaughter, and (11) with two sisters at the same time."

Lev 20:11 And the man that lieth with his father's wife hath uncovered his father's nakedness: both of them shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.
 

ewq1938

Well-known member
Oct 18, 2018
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#34
So to summarize... Noah was drunk and Canaan took advantage of that to sodomize him?

It's an interesting view, and I did always wonder how Noah just immediately woke up and knew something had been done to him and who did it.

I think Ham heard something odd, went to check it out and found his son Canaan doing something terrible. Ham went to get help from his brothers and they covered up the nakedness and at this same time Noah woke up and could see what had happened. It's possible he woke before brothers came to cover things up. Either way, Noah knew Canaan was guilty.

The whole generational sin thing was something practiced by Israel in it's early days. This event happened long before Israel and it's practices so that has no valid place in explaining what happened here.
 

Webers.Home

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May 28, 2018
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#35
.
Ham's sin wasn't in catching his father disrobed. In my judicious estimation,
that was an innocent blunder that could happen to anyone. No, his sin was
in blabbing about it to his brothers when he should've said nothing in order
to prevent subjecting his dad to open shame and disgrace.

When I was young boy and silil living at home, by dad got drunk on vodka
that made him really sick. He went downstairs late at night to vomit from
the front porch; which was a location adjacent to my sister's bedroom where
she could see him outside though the curtains of a glass double door.

Well; my dad was stark naked at the time; which I would've never known
had not my sister blabbed about it next day.

NOTE: Ham's act is seen even more reprehensible when juxtaposed with the
Flood. His dad's ark saved Ham's bacon, and this is how he repaid the
favor? . . . with mockery and public disgrace?
_
 

Webers.Home

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#36
.
he dishonored his father isn’t that a commandment ?

According to Deut 5:2-4, Rom 4:15, Rom 5:13, and Gal 3:17; the
commandments aren't retroactive.

Take for example Cain and Abel. God couldn't prosecute Cain for the sin of
murder because He had not yet formally issued a law forbidding it.

In other words; where there is no rule prohibiting a certain practice, then no
rule is broken when somebody does it. That goes for punishments too.

Seeing as how God didn't require the death penalty for murder till the Flood
ended (Gen 9:5-6) then no one prior that could be executed for murder in
the name of God. No doubt there were cultural laws related to murder before
the Flood, but not His.
_
 

ResidentAlien

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Apr 21, 2021
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#37
Did Ham, Noah's son, sleep with his wife? Yes a bit controversial but genuine question :cautious: Why did Noah curse Ham's son Canaan?
No, Ham didn't sleep with Noah's wife. The most charitable thing I can think of about this idea is—ridiculous.

The reason Noah cursed Ham's son was because Ham had already been blessed by God: "So God blessed Noah and his sons, and said to them: 'Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth.' "—Genesis 9:1
 

JohnDB

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Jan 16, 2021
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#38
I suppose generational curses could be a thing?
Noah did not curse Caanan...Ham did it.
This is Noah's job of being a prophet and foretelling the future.

Ok...first you need to do the math and understand that Ham conceived Caanan on the ark while they were supposed to be celibate...

Then you also have to understand that everyone was hot after the "SEED of the woman" that was going to allow them access back into the Garden in Eden.

Then because God is the Author of all life Ham assumed that Caanan was the Seed they were looking for...(born on the ark)

So Ham was disgusted with his father...he was thinking that he was more righteous than his Father...(boy was he wrong)

So Noah disclosed the future that Ham still didn't believe...because Caanan and his descendants covered the land that once contained the Garden in Eden but became known as Caanan filled with Caananites...and the land became known as Israel instead of Eden.

God, and Godly men, do not curse...they are too busy being good to be bad. (Doing such things as cursing people for bad behavior is being bad)

And the pronouncement was severe...especially troubling. Meaning that the son Ham thought so highly of Ham himself was going to train into a legacy of being a slave to sin. Instead of salvation, Caanan was going to be more sin begetting more sin.
 

VineyardsOfEngedi

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Nov 26, 2019
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#39
I edit out things I am not responding to. Why not stop it? I think it likely did stop when he accidentally saw what was happening. Perhaps he heard strange noises and investigated.
Oh, I'm not sure. I was just reading the bible literally, like he saw then left and told his brothers etc. :cautious:. Oh, because you don't want to make your position known? Sorry just wondering.
 

VineyardsOfEngedi

Well-known member
Nov 26, 2019
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#40
So to summarize... Noah was drunk and Canaan took advantage of that to sodomize him?

It's an interesting view, and I did always wonder how Noah just immediately woke up and knew something had been done to him and who did it.
Wait what? So many different views no wonder there is a church in every corner :cautious: