Does 1 Thessalonians 4:14-18 Teach Jesus Will Return With Dead Saints Now With Him In Heaven?

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Jan 31, 2021
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Revelation has more than one instance of the resurrection of the righteous, therefore "one resurrection of the righteous and one of the wicked" are talking about resurrection types rather than instances.
The Bible says otherwise. I will stick with the Bible.

Matt 22:30 - At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven.
Luke 14:14 - and you will be blessed. Although they cannot repay you, you will be repaid at the resurrection of the righteous.”
Acts 24:15 - and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.
1 Cor `5:23 - But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. This means all believers.

All these verses use the singular of "resurrection". And 1 Cor 15:23 places it at the Second Advent.

As does 2 Thess 2:1 - Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters,

This means it is possible that some instances of righteous resurrection occur at the time of the GWT.
Nope. All of the verses above prove that there is just ONE resurrection for the saved. And it will occur at the Second Advent.
 
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FreeGrace2 said:
Rev 20:10 is very clear and specific about the beast and FP, both of who are human beings.

So why do you ignore that verse?
I don't I use it all the time to prove it is only speaking of the beast, FP and the devil.
You HAVEN'T proved anything. IMMEDIATELY following v.10 is v.11-15 which deals with ALL the unbelievers. And they end up where the beast, FP and Satan already are.

BTW, the beast is a massive kingdom made up of ten kingdoms within the area of 7 mountains. That is not a "person". The FP is a person, some say it's a role satan plays as a pretend Christ, or a demon, or a human possessed by satan. Either way, not a normal person or maybe not a human person at all. Nevertheless the verse does not say anyone else is tormented forever and even that is likely a figure of speech, not a literal statement.
God doesn't judge systems, He judges individuals.
 
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How can they be "real" people when Jesus told Solomon to tell us that the dead "know not anything" and He also told the Psalmists the dead go down "into silence"?
You have been derailed by a single verse. So go ahead and ignore Rev 6:9,10 and the souls IN heaven and shouting. And jesus telling a thief that he will join Jesus in Paradise that day. And a whole host of verses that prove that souls leave bodies and the saved go to heaven and the unsaved go to Torments.

Paul couldn't have been more clear in Phil 1
21 For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain.
22 If I am to go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me. Yet what shall I choose? I do not know!
23 I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far;

If Paul believed the soul sleeps, he couldn't have written v.21 or 23.

v.21 would have said "to die is to sleep until the resurrection".
v.23 would have said "I desire to depart and sleep until I will be with Christ".

You guys are so blind, you can't see that you're making a false dichotomy between Jesus and Jesus.
Well, this surelt doesn't make any sense. Care to re-write? What you you mean "between Jesus and Jesus"?

Only way to harmonize Luke 16 with the rest of Scripture is to understand Jesus was speaking a parable, which Psalms 78:1-2 KJV predicted He would do ;)
Actually, Luke 16 destroys your view, along with the verses above.

Y'know what else John saw in heaven? Jesus with a two edged sword sticking out of His mouth, fire shooting out His eye sockets, black feet, and a hand several bazillion miles wide holding the Sun, Betelgeuse, Orion, etc. Yep, no symbolism there, right?
I never said there was no symbolism. But what you point out is OBVIOUSLY symbolism. What John wrote about seeing and hearing souls IN heaven under the altar isn't symbolism.

That's just an excuse to avoid the obvious fact that your view is wrong.

Immortal Soul crowd claims God will keep the fire burning eternally, prevent the wicked from burning out of existence, but somehow He's not responsible for their torment?
No, He is not. Those who will be cast into the LoF do it to themselves. They refused the free gift of eternal life, which is required to live with God.

In eternity, there are only 2 locations: on the new earth (Rev 21) or in the LoF. By not receiving the gift of eternal life, they consign themselves to the LoF.

iow, they will be torturing themselves.

I think you should be aware by now that I've been able to answer EVERY challenge you have thrown. They are reasonable and rational.

Calling Luke 16 a parable is neither.
 
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FreeGrace2 said:
God breathed into the body the soul.
Look, He didn't ""breathe the soul" into anything, got it? If you tell me what your native tongue is, I'll be happy to repeat this that way, b/c there's no way English is your first language. It says He breathed his BREATH OF LIFE into the NOSTRILS of the man, and the result of that action was that the dead body became a living soul, got it?
What you obviously havnen't got is common sense or discernment. Don't you know that when the soul (immaterial) leaves the body, the body is described as dead? So that's what "breath of life" means. I thought everyone could easily understand that.

james 2:26 - As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

Not real difficult to understand. But that depends upon denseness.

The Living Soul came into existence as a consequence of the union of the Body and the Breath of Life
Go ahead and prove this from Scripture.

and at death when the Breath returns to God exactly as it was when It initially went forth, and the Body returns to the dust, the Living Soul CEASES TO EXIST.
Your fantasies are really something. God breathes into Adam's body a soul, he becomes a living soul and ad death, his soul leaves his body (James 2:26) and returns to God.
 
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FreeGrace2 said:
Are you going to ignore post #814?
Something tells me I already addressed whatever is in there, but your shut eyes, closed ears, and stubborn character prevented you from reading my response.
You don't even know what's in it and yet you claim that "something" has told you something. Yeah, that's really scholarly.

Bro, all I do is shred your false belief
lol. This is just so deluded. You've been given very clear verses that shred your fantasies. But you aren't interested in the truth.
 
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Yes, but he had a whole other section from I think 8-12 that was repeated for the Jews/Israel alone, I just shortened it up to where it was only about the Church, since that is what we will face, even if we are Jewish(I am a Gentile) and saved before the Pre Trib Rapture.

Here's the catch, no many get this, we actually do not separate from the Jews, it just "SEEMS" tat way. Only 2 Billion out of 8 Billion on this earth are Christians, and only 50 percent will be Raptured/make the Wedding by being chaste and faithful unto the Lord. So, that is roughly 12.5 percent of the world that makes it to Heaven, some will be Jews, I don't know what percent, then the Dead may not have been that high, or it may be a little higher, but the road is narrow. Not many chose the right path over all. BUT....both Gentiles AND Jews who came unto Christ by FAITH ALONE, will be Raptured or Raised from the Dead and Raptured, pre Trib., LIKEWISE, those who come unto Christ after the Rapture will also have to meet the exact same requirements, they must come by FAITH ALONE, Faith was Abrahams Righteousness, it is our righteousness, and it will also be the 70th week saints who repents righteousness, Jesus is not just going to show up and save Israel like many people think, they MUST REPENT, before God's Wrath starts, Zechariah 13:8-9 shows us that 1/3 of Israel (3-5 million Jews) Repent just before the DOTL (Zechariah 14:1-2).

Likewise, the Gentiles who repent during the 70th week will also have tp com e unto Christ Jesus by FAITH ALONE, then they being not protected by God will most likely be killed. Even though the Anti-Christ will only rule the Mediterranean Sea Region and Europe, the whole worlds mindset will be likewise see it with COVID 19 they are all Demon possessed shills for Satan. They all think alike, look at the Ivy League, supporting a MAN racing in a Swim Meet as a Woman, no one is actually that goofy, they are demon possessed fool for Satan.

So, we really are no different, Jew nor Gentile, we are all the sane in God's eyes, that is what Paul was sayin in Galatians chapter 3, HEY Galatians, STOP trying to be like the Jews to make it to Heaven (by serving the Laws of Moses), who has BEWITCHE YOU? Then he says the Law cam 430 years after the Promise !! And thus God sees no difference in the Jews who come unto Jesus by FAITH ALONE, both before the Rapture and after the Rapture, He only protects the Jews during the 70th week in order to keep His Promise unto Abraham of an everlasting seed on this earth. Thus, ALL Israel is saved, not every Jew, but Israel as a nation.

So, there will be Jews and Gentiles Raptured, and there will be Jews and Gentiles who come unto Christ by Faith during the 70th week. So, as Paul says in Gal. 3, there is NO DIFFERENCE.
So much information about something that ISN'T WRITTEN IN THE BIBLE, is so weird. Christ returns (with those who have died) and on the LAST DAY of this age, those alive and remaining are changed and gathered to Him and Satan is bound for 1000 years, THAT IS WRITTEN.

We do however, find things like this, again and again TRIAL FIRST, APPEARING AFTER. PERSECUTION FIRST, APPEARING AFTER. TRIBULATION FIRST, APPEARING AFTER. WORKING OF SATAN FIRST, CHRIST COMING AFTER. WORK FIRST, REST AFTER.

1 Peter 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead
4 To an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that fadeth not away reserved in heaven for you
5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
6 Wherein ye greatly rejoice though now for a season if need be ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations
7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ
8 Whom having not seen, ye love in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:
9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

NOTICE THE ORDER OF EVENTS. YOU FIND THIS VERY THEME REPEATED OVER AND OVER THROUGHOUT ALL OF GODS WORD.

I realize everyone who believes in PRE TRIBULATION RAPTURE is just plain scared of facing the Adversary and the tribulation but FAITH comes from hearing the words of God. When you come to knowledge you will know that GOD works His works right here on the earth and God perfects His children right here on the earth and AFFLICTION is PROMISED TO ALL WHO COME TO GOD.

Eternal Salvation is worth fighting for. Is worth standing up for. I worth going through a little bit of pain and suffering for and it isn't like God is asking us to do something HE DIDN'T do Himself.

Paul was delivered over and over and over and kept from evil all while here on earth. Good things come from the things that seem scary. They are only scary and need to be 'escaped' from when you don't have all the information. Come into the light.

10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:
11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

SUFFERING FIRST, GLORY AFTER


12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.
13 Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;
14 As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance:
15 But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;
16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.
17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:
18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
21 Who by Him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.
22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
24 For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away:
25 But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.


THESE are the words given to ALL generations the last being the same as all others will face what is sent into the world, they will not be taken to heaven.

TRY to FIND A BEGINNING to the theory of PRE TRIB and you will find it does not exist. NEVER IS THERE AN ASCENDIING of 'a group' into heaven. NEVER.


Here is what it looks like WHEN IT IS WRITTEN when someone or something is taken to heaven or ascends.

2 Kings 2:1 And it came to pass, when the LORD would take up Elijah into heaven by a whirlwind, that Elijah went with Elisha from Gilgal.
11 And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.
12 And Elisha saw it, and he cried, My father, my father, the chariot of Israel, and the horsemen thereof. And he saw him no more: and he took hold of his own clothes, and rent them in two pieces.


Revelation 11:10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
11 And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud and their enemies beheld them.
 
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Look, He didn't ""breathe the soul" into anything, got it? If you tell me what your native tongue is, I'll be happy to repeat this that way, b/c there's no way English is your first language. It says He breathed his BREATH OF LIFE into the NOSTRILS of the man, and the result of that action was that the dead body became a living soul, got it? The Living Soul came into existence as a consequence of the union of the Body and the Breath of Life, and at death when the Breath returns to God exactly as it was when It initially went forth, and the Body returns to the dust, the Living Soul CEASES TO EXIST.
Eccl 12:7 - and the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.

And you can't even realize that this verse refutes your theory.

Your "soul sleep" idea has souls sleeping in the grave. Or are you now going to move the goal posts and claim that there is a slumber party in heaven for believers?

What is real clear is that the soul/spirit doesn't stay in the ground sleeping. It returns to God. And proves that Gen 2:7 IS about live begins when the soul enters the body. And death is when the soul/spirit leaves the body. James 2:26

You have been refuted soundly by the Bible.
 
Dec 15, 2021
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The sleeping saints will be woken by Jesus at His coming.

1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

We don't go to sleep, we PASS THROUGH SLEEP.

Generations following upon generations DON'T PREVENT WHAT?
DON'T prevent those who DIE FROM GOING TO HEAVEN TO BE WHERE HE IS.



WHO IS IT THAT RISES WHEN CHRIST RETURNS 'THE DEAD'.

Name me one person who accepted the gift of Salvation was EVER CALLED DEAD?


It doesn't say THOSE MADE ALIVE IN CHRIST RISE, DOES IT?

The dead must remain dead for 1000 years. Let the dead bury the dead. And the dead rise. THEN THE ALIVE are changed.

how is that hard to understand?


Come to LIFE. CHRIST IS THE LIFE, WE ARE MADE ALIVE. It is an eternal ALIVE. There are NO PAUSES IN ETERNAL LIFE.
 
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2Timothy 4:4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
5 But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry.
6 For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand.
7 I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith:
8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day and not to me only, but unto all them also that love His appearing.
9 Do thy diligence to come shortly unto me:


2 Corinthians 4:14 Knowing that He which raised up the Lord Jesus shall raise up us also by Jesus, and shall present us with you.
15 For all things are for your sakes, that the abundant grace might through the thanksgiving of many redound to the glory of God.
16 For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward man (SPIRIUAL BODY AND SOUL) is renewed day by day.
17 For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory;
18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

2 Corinthians 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.
6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:)
8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.


Colossians 1:4 Since we heard of your faith in Christ Jesus, and of the love which ye have to all the saints,
5 For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel;
6 Which is come unto you, as it is in all the world; and bringeth forth fruit, as it doth also in you, since the day ye heard of it, and knew the grace of God in truth:


Revelation 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

Luke 23:42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.
43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.


ALL THE WORDS ARE HERE BUT IT TAKES THE LEADING OF THE HOLY SPIRIT TO SEE AND UNDERSTAND THEIR TRUTHS.
 
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Isaiah 26:14 They are dead, they shall not live; they are deceased, they shall not rise: therefore hast thou visited and destroyed them, and made all their memory to perish.

Isaiah 26:15 Thou hast increased the nation, O LORD, thou hast increased the nation: thou art glorified: thou hadst removed it far unto all the ends of the earth.

Isaiah 26:16 LORD, in trouble have they visited thee, they poured out a prayer when thy chastening was upon them.

Isaiah 26:17 Like as a woman with child, that draweth near the time of her delivery, is in pain, and crieth out in her pangs; so have we been in thy sight, O LORD.

Isaiah 26:18 We have been with child, we have been in pain, we have as it were brought forth wind; we have not wrought any deliverance in the earth; neither have the inhabitants of the world fallen.

Isaiah 26:19 Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.


Where does the Holy Spirit lead? How does He guide? How does He help us to rightly divide the words of God? To bring clarity and understanding. IT IS NOT THE WORDS THEMSELVES BUT THE SPIRIT OF THE WORDS REVEAL THE PLAN OF GOD.
 

Evmur

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The portion of your post I underlined doesn't account for a very important aspect of end times Bible prophecy that most Christian ignore: the coming period of desolation on Earth spoken of by Isaiah, Jeremiah, Daniel, Peter, as well as other passages. With most scenarios, there is always activity taking place down here:


Antichrist comes and makes a treaty between Arabs and Jews
Antichrist breaks the treaty 3 1/2 years in and Armageddon ensues
Jesus comes after the pretrib/midtrib/post trib Rapture
Jesus sets up His kingdom on Earth for the 1,000 reign
End of the 1,000 years Jesus brings the saints to Earth
Everyone lives happily ever after.

Cannot anyone see how this, or any variation of this scenario, does not account for the coming period of total planetary destruction, desolation, darkness, silence, emptiness, devoid of humanity, devoid of all life except the devil and his angels? Are we gonna ignore all those passages?
The 1, 000 years will be a time when nations will not lift up sword against nation, neither will they learn war any more ... the nations will flock to Jerusalem to learn the ways of the God of Jacob.
 
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No. When the dead in Christ resurrect, it's all of them not part of them. That means there are no saved dead anywhere when the second resurrection happens.
The Bible says otherwise. I will stick with the Bible.

Matt 22:30 - At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven.
Luke 14:14 - and you will be blessed. Although they cannot repay you, you will be repaid at the resurrection of the righteous.”
Acts 24:15 - and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.
1 Cor `5:23 - But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. This means all believers.

All these verses use the singular of "resurrection". And 1 Cor 15:23 places it at the Second Advent.

As does 2 Thess 2:1 - Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters,


Nope. All of the verses above prove that there is just ONE resurrection for the saved. And it will occur at the Second Advent.
ewq1938 and FreeGrace2, your feedback is appreciated. Thanks for taking the time.

Are you both proposing that everyone righteous is resurrected at the time of the resurrection of the two witnesses in Revelation 11?
 
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ewq1938 and FreeGrace2, your feedback is appreciated. Thanks for taking the time.

Are you both proposing that everyone righteous is resurrected at the time of the resurrection of the two witnesses in Revelation 11?
I do not believe the 2W are resurrected, meaning that is when they will receive their glorified bodies. 1 Cor 15:23 is very clear about when all believers receive their glorified bodies; when He comes, which is at the Second Advent.

Since these 2W never physically died before, that is when they do physically die. They cannot receive their glorified bodies yet, since ALL believers receive theirs when He comes.
 
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You have been derailed by a single verse. So go ahead and ignore Rev 6:9,10 and the souls IN heaven and shouting. And jesus telling a thief that he will join Jesus in Paradise that day. And a whole host of verses that prove that souls leave bodies and the saved go to heaven and the unsaved go to Torments.

.
Was Jesus referring to the Heaven when he said the thief would be with him in paradise that day?

Jesus speaking after his resurrection:

Jesus said, “Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. John 20:17
 

Rondonmon

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Rev 20:10 is very clear and specific about the beast and FP, both of who are human beings.

So why do you ignore that verse?
Because everything has already "HAPPENED" so its ALL IMPORTANT that everything "FIT" even though it doesn't, the MO is more important than the facts. When we get tp the point that we will do anything to prove a point, we are not hearing from God but the liar Satan who always whispers unto us, he even whispered to Jesus via Peter and Jesus said get thee behind me Satan. Peter had no idea that was coming from Satan, :D.
 
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You are not being told this by the holy spirit, remember when I told you the exact reason you couldn't ever admit the 2300 days is actually 1150 days with 2300 sacrifices being taken away? Because I have known these wrong teaching before you even became a Christian, I imagine. So, this didn't come from you, or God, it came from a MAN, stuff I saw and discounted long, long ago.

Until you learn CORRECTION from God is a good thing, it means God cares about you and wants you to know Him, yo will never get it brother. Its like me at 3 telling my dat, hey pops, little jimmy joe told me 2 + 2 = 3, then not hearing my daddy say, no its 4 !! God's will quit trying to correct us when we quit heeding His voice. I now its had t learn you have been duped, but that life, I had to learn how to hear the difference between the Spirit and the Liar named Satan, we all do, the bible always matches what the Spirit says, if you have to fudge things to get a FIT, Satan is involved.
Of course I'm being led by the Holy Spirit, friend, and He leads everyone to interpret the 2300 "evenings and mornings" of Daniel 8 as 2300 Days based on what He said SIX TIMES about what an "evening and morning" is:

"And the evening and the morning was the first day... the evening and the morning was the second day...the evening and the morning was the third day...etc."​
My suggestion to you is that when it comes to prophecy, you consult the "holy men who spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost" and Peter's not talking about John Hagee or Irvin Baxter because these guys are full of bulldookey -- Peter's talking about the holy men like MOSES who said an "evening and morning" is one single whole day.
 

Rondonmon

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So much information about something that ISN'T WRITTEN IN THE BIBLE, is so weird. Christ returns (with those who have died) and on the LAST DAY of this age, those alive and remaining are changed and gathered to Him and Satan is bound for 1000 years, THAT IS WRITTEN.
ALL TIME is troubles go read John 16:33, what I find with you guys that can't discern these thigs clearly is you are using YOUR MIND and not the Holy Spirit which only reveals TRUTH. You will never see God's truths by using your mind, God doesn't work like that. And yes, the understanding is in the bible, Satan will deceive those who will give him ear. That's his nature. 2 Thess 2:3 tells us the Church is going to DEPART before the Man of sin and the DOTL arrives, but Satan has twisted the word to mean a Departure of the Faith. Faith is mention NOWHERE in that passage, but a Gathering into Christ Jesus is mentioned in the vey first verse.

People can piece together anything they want and say SEE, SEE, SEE the order, from large book like the bible and actually think they are correct. The book of Revelation sees all manner of arguments over the order and basically ZERO PEOPLE get it right, Rev. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9 and 15&16 ENDS the book of Revelations TIMELINE as per mans rule under Satan on this earth. There is a wee bit at the very end of Rev. 19 where Jesus casts the Beast man and False Prophet into hell, that finishes it then the TIMELINE that is picked up again in Rev. 20, 21 and 22 is under Jesus Christs 1000 year reign. Babylon Falls in Rev. 16:19, the 7th Trump in Rev. 11 is the Rev. 16:19 event, as is the Rev. 19 Armageddon Marriage Feast.

Rev. 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 17 and 18 are all chapters with SPECIFIC DETAILS about SPECIFIC EVENTS tat happen during these other chapters with most happening during the Rev. 8, 9 and 16 Judgment Chapters. Some cover the full 7 years like the Rev. 14 HARVEST Chapters with the Pre Trib. Rapture seen in verse 14, and the Jewish Nations Harvest in the first few verses and the Wickeds Harvest in the last few verses, both happening at the Second Coming. Rev. 19 covers the Marriage of he Lamb to the Church and then the Second Coming, and the Wedding Feast (Armageddon) so that 7 years also. Rev. 11 SPECIFICALLY COVERS the 2 Witnesses Ministry of 1260 days, except they show up at the 1335, which is 75 days before the 1260 event, they they must die 75 days before the Beast dies, because both have offices of 1260 days.

Believe me, anyone who can decipher the whole book of Revelation, the Rapture is a piece of cake.

We are TRIED by the god of this world and his minions for all the 2000 years of this Church age.
 

Rondonmon

Senior Member
May 13, 2016
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Of course I'm being led by the Holy Spirit, friend, and He leads everyone to interpret the 2300 "evenings and mornings" of Daniel 8 as 2300 Days based on what He said SIX TIMES about what an "evening and morning" is:
Its 2300 Sacrifices, not days. I don't keep repeating things to people who can't hear them. Jesus tells us to wipe the dust off our feet when things are not received in a certain city, or in other words don't continue wasting you time when people refuse to hear the truths on any given matter, not just salvation in certain cities.

I know more about Prophecy than any one you have ever met. But of course you wouldn't know that my friend because your perception is off. You are basically a preterist. Those re the type I shake my head at, who think everything was fulfilled on 70 AD. That's far beyond blindness, that like walking in a mine field thinking roses are laying all over the ground.
 
Jan 31, 2021
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Was Jesus referring to the Heaven when he said the thief would be with him in paradise that day?
Jesus was referring to the place where all OT believers went at death, Paradise. Paradise, also known as Abraham's bosom, is in Hades, a compartment different than Torments, where all the unsaved in the OT went, and still go to when they die.

Jesus speaking after his resurrection:

Jesus said, “Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. John 20:17
Right. He had gone to Hades and "preached to the spirits in prison" and then took all the believers to heaven with Him.