Does 1 Thessalonians 4:14-18 Teach Jesus Will Return With Dead Saints Now With Him In Heaven?

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kleronomos

Active member
Dec 15, 2021
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I agree the soul will be destroyed in hell...it is YOU who teach that the soul is maintained in an everlasting but wretched existence.

That isn't even a part of our discussion.


YOU KEEP SAYING the SOUL can't live on without the body because of WHAT YOU BELIEVE GEN 2:7 says, WHICH it doesn't say BECAUSE OF WHAT MATT 10:28 SAYS.


I KEEP SAYING

Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but ARE NOT ABLE TO KILL THE SOUL but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
 

FreeGrace2

Well-known member
Jan 31, 2021
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So a baby is born without Adam's sin.
No, a baby and ALL babies are born with Adam's nature to sin. Adam was not created with a nature to sin. But he did sin.

When the child reaches the age of accountability and then sins, then a spiritual death comes to them and the only way to remove it is to be forgiven and be born again.
Nope. Everyone is born separated from God.
 

ewq1938

Well-known member
Oct 18, 2018
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No, a baby and ALL babies are born with Adam's nature to sin.
Nope, not one scripture supports that idea while there is scripture that says that no child inherits their parents sins.

Eze 18:2 What mean ye, that ye use this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying, The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge?
Eze 18:3 As I live, saith the Lord GOD, ye shall not have occasion any more to use this proverb in Israel.
Eze 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
Eze 18:5 But if a man be just, and do that which is lawful and right,
Eze 18:6 And hath not eaten upon the mountains, neither hath lifted up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, neither hath defiled his neighbour's wife, neither hath come near to a menstruous woman,
Eze 18:7 And hath not oppressed any, but hath restored to the debtor his pledge, hath spoiled none by violence, hath given his bread to the hungry, and hath covered the naked with a garment;
Eze 18:8 He that hath not given forth upon usury, neither hath taken any increase, that hath withdrawn his hand from iniquity, hath executed true judgment between man and man,
Eze 18:9 Hath walked in my statutes, and hath kept my judgments, to deal truly; he is just, he shall surely live, saith the Lord GOD.
Eze 18:10 If he beget a son that is a robber, a shedder of blood, and that doeth the like to any one of these things,
Eze 18:11 And that doeth not any of those duties, but even hath eaten upon the mountains, and defiled his neighbour's wife,
Eze 18:12 Hath oppressed the poor and needy, hath spoiled by violence, hath not restored the pledge, and hath lifted up his eyes to the idols, hath committed abomination,
Eze 18:13 Hath given forth upon usury, and hath taken increase: shall he then live? he shall not live: he hath done all these abominations; he shall surely die; his blood shall be upon him.
Eze 18:14 Now, lo, if he beget a son, that seeth all his father's sins which he hath done, and considereth, and doeth not such like,
Eze 18:15 That hath not eaten upon the mountains, neither hath lifted up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, hath not defiled his neighbour's wife,
Eze 18:16 Neither hath oppressed any, hath not withholden the pledge, neither hath spoiled by violence, but hath given his bread to the hungry, and hath covered the naked with a garment,
Eze 18:17 That hath taken off his hand from the poor, that hath not received usury nor increase, hath executed my judgments, hath walked in my statutes; he shall not die for the iniquity of his father, he shall surely live.
Eze 18:18 As for his father, because he cruelly oppressed, spoiled his brother by violence, and did that which is not good among his people, lo, even he shall die in his iniquity.
Eze 18:19 Yet say ye, Why? doth not the son bear the iniquity of the father? When the son hath done that which is lawful and right, and hath kept all my statutes, and hath done them, he shall surely live.
Eze 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
 

TheLearner

Well-known member
Jan 14, 2019
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James 2:26
J.B. Phillips New Testament
26 Yes, faith without action is as dead as a body without a soul.
 

Phoneman-777

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2019
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That isn't even a part of our discussion.


YOU KEEP SAYING the SOUL can't live on without the body because of WHAT YOU BELIEVE GEN 2:7 says, WHICH it doesn't say BECAUSE OF WHAT MATT 10:28 SAYS.


I KEEP SAYING

Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but ARE NOT ABLE TO KILL THE SOUL but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
So, how does that verse support support "immortal soul" doctrine?

It actually support MY view - that the Soul is "destroyed", not "maintained in an everlasting but wretched existence".
 

kleronomos

Active member
Dec 15, 2021
907
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So, how does that verse support support "immortal soul" doctrine?

It actually support MY view - that the Soul is "destroyed", not "maintained in an everlasting but wretched existence".
I believe in Life and Death. I believe both a body and soul are killed in the lake of fire. Again, you and I may have touched on the subject but it is a non issue for me. The lake of fire comes at the end of the Lords Day and then THIS AGE IS GONE. The remembrance of it is gone. Do you remember the last one? Didn't think so, no one does.

Psalm 37:20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs they shall consume into smoke shall they consume away.


The torment of and the soul is blotted out in the lake of fire that the Lamb and angels witness and we all know FIRE CONSUMES. The SMOKE that soul produces goes up in the air and dissipates into nothingness forever and ever as told by God

If anyone were to last forever and ever in pain and torture it would be Satan and here is his fate.

Ezekiel 28:18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.

Ezekiel 28:19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.

BLOTTED OUT like they never was. God has better things to do than to hold vendettas against those to stupid to make wise choices. Life is gonna be too good to carry even the thought of them around. Me personally, have no need for even a minute of payback.
 

Phoneman-777

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2019
3,382
491
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I believe in Life and Death. I believe both a body and soul are killed in the lake of fire. Again, you and I may have touched on the subject but it is a non issue for me. The lake of fire comes at the end of the Lords Day and then THIS AGE IS GONE. The remembrance of it is gone. Do you remember the last one? Didn't think so, no one does.

Psalm 37:20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs they shall consume into smoke shall they consume away.


The torment of and the soul is blotted out in the lake of fire that the Lamb and angels witness and we all know FIRE CONSUMES. The SMOKE that soul produces goes up in the air and dissipates into nothingness forever and ever as told by God

If anyone were to last forever and ever in pain and torture it would be Satan and here is his fate.

Ezekiel 28:18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.

Ezekiel 28:19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.

BLOTTED OUT like they never was. God has better things to do than to hold vendettas against those to stupid to make wise choices. Life is gonna be too good to carry even the thought of them around. Me personally, have no need for even a minute of payback.
I agree, the Bible teaches the wicked are blotted out of existence in the end. They suffer an eternal death from which there will be no resurrection. The idea that God will torture unspeakably those who refuse His love says something about the character of God that they - the Immortal Soul/Eternal Torment crowd - would never consider for a moment to include among their own character.

What I want is for just one of these to give their honest opinion about this scenario: A young seminarian student eyes a pretty girl in class. He begins sending her anonymous gifts and flowers and when the time is right, he approaches her and introduces himself. He confesses it is he who's been so generous and speaks of how pretty she is and how she seems so nice to others. He then reveals his intention to graduate and become very successful, and offers to begin a relationship with her that may one day develop into an engagement and possibly marriage and a wonderful, happy, prosperous family...and then he tells her that if she refuses he will kidnap her and torture her for the rest of what will be her long, wretched life.

Only a satanically controlled mind could ever be pleased with such a notion, which is why Eternal Torment is such a doctrine of devils.
 

TheLearner

Well-known member
Jan 14, 2019
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I agree, the Bible teaches the wicked are blotted out of existence in the end. They suffer an eternal death from which there will be no resurrection. The idea that God will torture unspeakably those who refuse His love says something about the character of God that they - the Immortal Soul/Eternal Torment crowd - would never consider for a moment to include among their own character.

What I want is for just one of these to give their honest opinion about this scenario: A young seminarian student eyes a pretty girl in class. He begins sending her anonymous gifts and flowers and when the time is right, he approaches her and introduces himself. He confesses it is he who's been so generous and speaks of how pretty she is and how she seems so nice to others. He then reveals his intention to graduate and become very successful, and offers to begin a relationship with her that may one day develop into an engagement and possibly marriage and a wonderful, happy, prosperous family...and then he tells her that if she refuses he will kidnap her and torture her for the rest of what will be her long, wretched life.

Only a satanically controlled mind could ever be pleased with such a notion, which is why Eternal Torment is such a doctrine of devils.
Good old Unitarianism again,