The False Teaching (& Truth) of what happens at the Rapture.

[Absolutely]

Mmmm what about the part that was missed out - `AND OF THE SAME BODY.` That was the revelation the Holy Spirit gave to the Apostle Paul.

Now why are you concerned with this or that person when it is the HOLY SPIRIT who is revealing more of the LORD AND HIS PURPOSES.

I pushback

I never intriduce a concept that ONLY PAUL had the revelation.

It was paul that said " why do you present the concept that you contain special revelation, because you either got it from God or someone taught it to you"

The bible, not Paul inspires me.

I do not put that " paul said this or that" into my studies.
I coin that phrase here strictly for discussion.
I read all epistles EXACTLY THE SAME
I do not use the human author ingredient as a qualifier.

Hyper paulines CAN NOT do that with the bible.
All hyper paulines treat the non pauline books as inferrior.

So yes my pushback is with authority

Now remember that the revelation of the Body of Christ was NOT given until the Lord gave it to the Apostle Paul. (Eph. 3) Thus what you have quoted is NOT to do with the Body of Christ.

You said all that in opposition of Jesus speaking.
So you are declaring God The Son was confused.

 

[Absolutely]

i was reading 2 peter while ago and noticed something.
Peter was actually saying he DID UNDERSTAND pauls words. He was saying " those unlearned and unstable wrestle with pauls words"



3:15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;

16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

Hyper paulines claim it was PETER that could not understand paul.

Hyper pualine ignorance and twisting Gods word

 

[Diakonos]

Can you prove it?

I already did. Christians are the body of Christ and Christians existed before Pentecost.

On the contrary, “the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch.” (Acts 11:26)

There were no Christians before Pentecost. The Apostles became part of the body of Christ when everyone else did. The Church, by definition, has the permanent indwelling of the Holy Spirit (1 Cor 3:16, 2 Tim 1:14). But the Spirit had not been given until Pentecost. That is why The Apostle John repeated:

“But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given because Jesus was not yet glorified.” (John 7:39)

““I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever;” (John 14:16)

““But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.” (John 14:26)

““When the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, that is the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify about Me,” (John 15:26)

““But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you.” (John 16:7)

““But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come.” (John 16:13)


To tie this back to the OP, this is the reason the rapture will happen in the first place. The Holy Spirit - who currently restrains the evil of the world - will be removed Himself from this world, which triggers the Day of the Lord (2 Thes 2:6-12). And since we are permanently bound to Him...when He goes, we go with Him. This is consistent with OT typology: an unnamed servant of the Groom introduces Him to his new bride (Gen 24, Ruth 2:5-6).

 

[Marilyn]

Scripture said he did:

Eph 3:5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

So in previous ages something was not made known but in Paul's age it was revealed to the Apostles and prophets. Peter is one of those Apostles and prophets of that current age.


Eph 3:6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

And this what was not known in the past ages, that the gentiles would be joining body. The body, which is composed of believers, here is not being revealed. It's who is going to be joining that body that is new information of that current age.

So where do you see that the 12 or some or even one knew about the Body of Christ BEFORE the Holy Spirit gave that revelation to the Apostle Paul?

 

[Marilyn]

I pushback

I never intriduce a concept that ONLY PAUL had the revelation.

It was paul that said " why do you present the concept that you contain special revelation, because you either got it from God or someone taught it to you"

The bible, not Paul inspires me.

I do not put that " paul said this or that" into my studies.
I coin that phrase here strictly for discussion.
I read all epistles EXACTLY THE SAME
I do not use the human author ingredient as a qualifier.

Hyper paulines CAN NOT do that with the bible.
All hyper paulines treat the non pauline books as inferrior.

So yes my pushback is with authority

You said all that in opposition of Jesus speaking.
So you are declaring God The Son was confused.

The whole of God`s word is HIS WORD about revealing His Son to mankind. How could any of it be less than any of God`s word. Because it is an unfolding revelation then we get more upon more and on into eternity of more of the Lord revealed to us. How could any aspect of the Lord be less than another aspect.

What is being highlighted here is God`s purposes through Christ that is being revealed. OT saints, Israel as a nation, and the Body of Christ, all great purposes revealed IN GOD`S TIMING. That does NOT make any one of those purposes LESS.

 

[Marilyn]

On the contrary, “the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch.” (Acts 11:26)

There were no Christians before Pentecost. The Apostles became part of the body of Christ when everyone else did. The Church, by definition, has the permanent indwelling of the Holy Spirit (1 Cor 3:16, 2 Tim 1:14). But the Spirit had not been given until Pentecost. That is why The Apostle John repeated:

“But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given because Jesus was not yet glorified.” (John 7:39)

““I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever;” (John 14:16)

““But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.” (John 14:26)

““When the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, that is the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify about Me,” (John 15:26)

““But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you.” (John 16:7)

““But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come.” (John 16:13)


To tie this back to the OP, this is the reason the rapture will happen in the first place. The Holy Spirit - who currently restrains the evil of the world - will be removed Himself from this world, which triggers the Day of the Lord (2 Thes 2:6-12). And since we are permanently bound to Him...when He goes, we go with Him. This is consistent with OT typology: an unnamed servant of the Groom introduces Him to his new bride (Gen 24, Ruth 2:5-6).

Hi Diakonos,

Thank you for your encouragement with some of my posts. Good to know that others see the same.

Just a note on the Holy Spirit being removed. I see that He will have brought the Body of Christ to maturity in the Lord and thus that purpose is complete. However I do not see the Holy Spirit, who is omnipresent, (everywhere present) as being removed from the world, (His world). For throughout the trib, we see many turn to God and that is God`s mercy by His Holy Spirit to turn those people to Himself.

These people, the great multitude and others, will NOT be in the Body of Christ purpose but still have a place in God`s great kingdom.

 

[ewq1938]

There were no Christians before Pentecost.

There were at least 12 Christians before Pentecost.

The Apostles became part of the body of Christ when everyone else did.

No, they were the first members of the body of Christ.

The Church, by definition, has the permanent indwelling of the Holy Spirit

(1 Cor 3:16, 2 Tim 1:14). But the Spirit had not been given until Pentecost. That is why The Apostle John repeated:

The Church and body of Christ started before the spirit was given.

 

[Absolutely]

The whole of God`s word is HIS WORD about revealing His Son to mankind. How could any of it be less than any of God`s word. Because it is an unfolding revelation then we get more upon more and on into eternity of more of the Lord revealed to us. How could any aspect of the Lord be less than another aspect.

What is being highlighted here is God`s purposes through Christ that is being revealed. OT saints, Israel as a nation, and the Body of Christ, all great purposes revealed IN GOD`S TIMING. That does NOT make any one of those purposes LESS.

I have no need to minimize the apostles and non pauline books and promote paul.
Hyper paulines have that need. It is their "gospel"
Even Jesus himself was confused in thier " understanding"

( which is the erroneous core of the hyper paulines)

 

[Absolutely]

Hi Diakonos,

Thank you for your encouragement with some of my posts. Good to know that others see the same.

Just a note on the Holy Spirit being removed. I see that He will have brought the Body of Christ to maturity in the Lord and thus that purpose is complete. However I do not see the Holy Spirit, who is omnipresent, (everywhere present) as being removed from the world, (His world). For throughout the trib, we see many turn to God and that is God`s mercy by His Holy Spirit to turn those people to Himself.

These people, the great multitude and others, will NOT be in the Body of Christ purpose but still have a place in God`s great kingdom.

The innumerable number came out of the gt through martyrdom.
They are the ones missing the rapture.
Saved but carnal and pew sitters.
Were not hot or cold.

I see many, many carnal believers today. The churches are full of them.

They and you will be so surprised.

Read the 10 virgin parable.

Closely unpack it

That alone will open your eyes.

 

[Absolutely]

On the contrary, “the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch.” (Acts 11:26)

There were no Christians before Pentecost. The Apostles became part of the body of Christ when everyone else did. The Church, by definition, has the permanent indwelling of the Holy Spirit (1 Cor 3:16, 2 Tim 1:14). But the Spirit had not been given until Pentecost. That is why The Apostle John repeated:

“But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given because Jesus was not yet glorified.” (John 7:39)

““I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever;” (John 14:16)

““But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.” (John 14:26)

““When the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, that is the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify about Me,” (John 15:26)

““But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you.” (John 16:7)

““But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come.” (John 16:13)


To tie this back to the OP, this is the reason the rapture will happen in the first place. The Holy Spirit - who currently restrains the evil of the world - will be removed Himself from this world, which triggers the Day of the Lord (2 Thes 2:6-12). And since we are permanently bound to Him...when He goes, we go with Him. This is consistent with OT typology: an unnamed servant of the Groom introduces Him to his new bride (Gen 24, Ruth 2:5-6).

" ....called...christians..."

Does not mean they were not prior to somebody labeling them.

 

[Absolutely]

On the contrary, “the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch.” (Acts 11:26)

There were no Christians before Pentecost. The Apostles became part of the body of Christ when everyone else did. The Church, by definition, has the permanent indwelling of the Holy Spirit (1 Cor 3:16, 2 Tim 1:14). But the Spirit had not been given until Pentecost. That is why The Apostle John repeated:

“But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given because Jesus was not yet glorified.” (John 7:39)

““I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever;” (John 14:16)

““But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.” (John 14:26)

““When the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, that is the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify about Me,” (John 15:26)

““But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you.” (John 16:7)

““But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come.” (John 16:13)


To tie this back to the OP, this is the reason the rapture will happen in the first place. The Holy Spirit - who currently restrains the evil of the world - will be removed Himself from this world, which triggers the Day of the Lord (2 Thes 2:6-12). And since we are permanently bound to Him...when He goes, we go with Him. This is consistent with OT typology: an unnamed servant of the Groom introduces Him to his new bride (Gen 24, Ruth 2:5-6).

the first church was already the church while in the upper room.

What you are demonstrating is the power those christians were given.

 

[cv5]

None of that affects the fact that the body of Christ began with the 12 disciples. That is also when the church and the bride began.

I would add that the disciples BECAME the Bride in Matt 26:27-28, when they all received the 3rd Passover cup, the cup of betrothal, which was the acceptance of the marriage contract. The Bride price was paid at The Crucifixion by the shedding of the blood of Christ. Then 50 days later at Pentecost, the "Arrabon", the down payment the earnest of the gift of the Holy Spirit was given.

I see the gift of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost as confirmation of the covenant. Is this the precise moment of the beginning of the Church per se? This is arguable.

 

[cv5]

On the contrary, “the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch.” (Acts 11:26)

There were no Christians before Pentecost. The Apostles became part of the body of Christ when everyone else did. The Church, by definition, has the permanent indwelling of the Holy Spirit (1 Cor 3:16, 2 Tim 1:14). But the Spirit had not been given until Pentecost. That is why The Apostle John repeated:

“But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given because Jesus was not yet glorified.” (John 7:39)

““I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever;” (John 14:16)

““But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.” (John 14:26)

““When the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, that is the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify about Me,” (John 15:26)

““But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you.” (John 16:7)

““But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come.” (John 16:13)


To tie this back to the OP, this is the reason the rapture will happen in the first place. The Holy Spirit - who currently restrains the evil of the world - will be removed Himself from this world, which triggers the Day of the Lord (2 Thes 2:6-12). And since we are permanently bound to Him...when He goes, we go with Him. This is consistent with OT typology: an unnamed servant of the Groom introduces Him to his new bride (Gen 24, Ruth 2:5-6).

I would say that God is going to remove the Holy Spirit indwelt BELIEVERS at the rapture. Consequently the Holy Spirit will take away His restraining power. I really don't believe that the Holy Spirit will be completely taken out of the world......it would probably disintegrate.

 

[Combanitorics]

That's another proof of the post-tribulation rapture. The church will be present to see the Day of the Lord coming because the Day of the Lord occurs with the return of Christ and the rapture.

I've heard of this notion before. Let me in on it. "Rapture", word meaning the same thing as translated means in the Old Testament, as in Enoch and Elijah? Just tell me if that's the definition of the word or not, I'm not quite ready for the theology and proof texts yet.

 

[Runningman]

I've heard of this notion before. Let me in on it. "Rapture", word meaning the same thing as translated means in the Old Testament, as in Enoch and Elijah? Just tell me if that's the definition of the word or not, I'm not quite ready for the theology and proof texts yet.

Without theology and proof texts, yes Enoch and Elijah experienced a kind of rapture. If by "rapture" we just mean that people are caught up, snatched, pulled, or taken by force. I don't think Enoch and Elijah quite fit the rapture theology though, but sure I guess we can't deny they were taken by God.

 

[cv5]

That's another proof of the post-tribulation rapture. The church will be present to see the Day of the Lord coming because the Day of the Lord occurs with the return of Christ and the rapture.

Nope. DOTL starts with Jesus "standing" to take the scroll from the Father in Rev 5. Then the seal judgments begin with and the man of sin being revealed.

 

[cv5]

God`s word says that those in darkness will not know the hour or day, however to those eagerly waiting,`But you brethren are NOT in darkness that this Day should OVERTAKE YOU AS A THIEF.` (1 Thess. 5: 4)

When Jesus was manifest as a man He didn`t know the time of His returns, however He is now at the right hand of the Father, in the Godhead so He certainly knows when He is coming for His Body and will tell us as we get closer.

`...exhorting, (encouraging and warning) one another, and so much the more AS YOU SEE THE DAY APPROACHING.` (Heb. 10: 25)

Thus we will be gathering together in small groups and not driving or flying planes etc because WE SEE THE DAY APPROACHING!!!

The pre-trib rapture is the correct view. Don't ever doubt it. It has everything going for it....

 

[Runningman]

Nope. DOTL starts with Jesus "standing" to take the scroll from the Father in Rev 5. Then the seal judgments begin with and the man of sin being revealed.

Nope. The DOTL starts at the 6th seal, per Revelation 6 - it’s the time of God’s wrath. It occurs immediately after the great tribulation per Matthew 24:29-31. Cross reference the signs of the 6th seal, the signs immediately after the tribulation in Matthew 24, and the signs of the DOTL in Isaiah 13.

The DOTL occurs at the return of Christ. Matthew 24 is a play-by-play chronological discourse about the end times. The great tribulation, return of Christ, the rapture, and the day of the Lord are all discussed there.

 

[justbyfaith]

The False Teaching of what happens at the Rapture.

I believe people have been taught through preaching, books, videos etc a wrong view of what happens at the Rapture.

This false teaching says that when people are caught away to meet the Lord others will see them rise in the air, and great devastation will happen. Planes will fall out of the sky as Christian pilots are taken away, plus cars and buses, trains etc will all crash because their drivers were believers and were caught away.

People are told that unbelievers will be shocked and horrified as they realise they have been `left behind.`

None of this is a true picture, I believe, of what will really happen at the rapture.

The Truth of what will happen at the Rapture.

God`s word says that we will see that Day, (of the Lord) approaching and thus get together more.

`...exhorting, (encouraging and warning) one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching.` (Heb. 10: 25)

I believe the Holy Spirit will be stirring our spirits expectantly so that we know the time is very close.

`To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear...` (Heb. 9: 28)

In the world people will think WW 3 is happening. The Russian Federation plus Iran, Ethiopia and Libya, (Ez. 38: 1 - 5) will be brought down by God to the mountains of Israel for judgment. The amassing of those troops will be very plain to see. Even now there is movement in those nations. People of the world will be looking at their phones, TV, etc in great fear of a nuclear World War.

The Lockdowns due to a supposed pandemic will keep people separate from others. Most will only be concerned with getting supplies, (which may be limited) and returning home.

Then when those who are eagerly waiting and looking for the Lord are taken, their bodies will be changed and there will be nothing left to indicate where they are. If some people do notice that so and so is not around there are many reasons for that - gone into a covid quarantine camp, visiting relatives, gone on holiday, etc etc.

Have you ever thought about this?

Jesus will come in the rapture with a shout...the voice of the archangel...and the trump of God (1 Thessalonians 4:16)...so it will be anything but secret.

Also, 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3 indicates to me that there will indeed be sudden destruction that results from many being taken up while they are driving on the freeways, piloting airplanes, etc.

 

[justbyfaith]

The rapture happened late yesterday...I guess you guys missed it too




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2Th 2:1, Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2Th 2:2, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2Th 2:3, Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4, Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
2Th 2:5, Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

2Ti 2:17, And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;
2Ti 2:18, Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.
2Ti 2:19, Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.