Does 1 Thessalonians 4:14-18 Teach Jesus Will Return With Dead Saints Now With Him In Heaven?
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FreeGrace2 said:
Rev 20:10 is very clear and specific about the beast and FP, both of who are human beings.
So why do you ignore that verse?
You ignore verses because "everything has already happened"??? Are you kidding? And what do you mean by "everything"?
Second, please explain what "doesn't fit", and I will be happy to explain to you what does fit.
Third, how does the MO (modus operandi?) be more important than FACTS???
Nothing is more important than FACTS.
Said the one who ignores verses, and thinks the MO is more important than FACTS.
Never ignore verses, and FACTS are more important than the MO.
Rev 20:10 is very clear and specific about the beast and FP, both of who are human beings.
So why do you ignore that verse?
You ignore verses because "everything has already happened"??? Are you kidding? And what do you mean by "everything"?
Second, please explain what "doesn't fit", and I will be happy to explain to you what does fit.
Third, how does the MO (modus operandi?) be more important than FACTS???
Nothing is more important than FACTS.
When we get tp the point that we will do anything to prove a point, we are not hearing from God but the liar Satan who always whispers unto us, he even whispered to Jesus via Peter and Jesus said get thee behind me Satan. Peter had no idea that was coming from Satan, 
.
.
Never ignore verses, and FACTS are more important than the MO.
On His way up to heaven. Acts 3:21 says Heaven must receive him until the time comes for God to restore everything, as he promised long ago through his holy prophets.
The Greek word "receive" means "to retain, contain". This occurred after He told Martha not to touch Him. Before the ascension in Acts 1.
The Greek word "receive" means "to retain, contain". This occurred after He told Martha not to touch Him. Before the ascension in Acts 1.
We can't build a doctrine on Revelation 6 symbolism that's left uninterpreted.
Human desire - including Paul's desire to depart here and immediately appear up there - has nothing to do with divine order. Paul himself knew he'd not immediately go there when he died - he said that takes place "at the last trump" (1 Corinthians 15:51-57 KJV). Telling the church he preferred to skip lying in the grave "naked" and "unclothed" without a body awaiting the resurrection body does not change the divine order of things.
Jesus always spoke about hell in terms of the literal body being cast in at the end of time, so for the Immortal Soul crowd to claim some ancient Rich Man was cast literally cast bodily into hellfire at his death makes a dichotomy between what Jesus says here and what He says elsewhere.
LOL No, podner, Luke 16 proves the Immortal Soul crowd lacks hermeneutical skill, Holy Spirit discernment, and plain ol' common sense.
Totally subjective conclusion which excludes the testimony of other non-symbolic Scriptures such as "the soul that sinneth, it shall die". Only in the insane clown world of "immortal soul" doctrine does "death" = "life eternal in torment".
Can you hear how silly you sound? They refused the gift of eternal life in heaven so they're granted eternal life of torture. It's utter madness, this logic. "No murderer hath eternal life abiding in him" but the Immortal Soul crowd says, "NO! The wicked have eternal life in flames of torment!"
This is how clown world insane the Immortal Soul crowd is:
(1) they refuse to believe God "only hath immortality" (1 Timothy 6:15-16 KJV)
(2) they claim humans have innate immortality and deny Paul's plain words that we must seek for it if we are to recieve it (Romans 2:7-9 KJV)
(3) and somehow humanity has to spend eternity alive in the LoF though God told Satan "never shalt thou be anymore" (Ezekiel 28:18-19 KJV)
Human desire - including Paul's desire to depart here and immediately appear up there - has nothing to do with divine order. Paul himself knew he'd not immediately go there when he died - he said that takes place "at the last trump" (1 Corinthians 15:51-57 KJV). Telling the church he preferred to skip lying in the grave "naked" and "unclothed" without a body awaiting the resurrection body does not change the divine order of things.
Jesus always spoke about hell in terms of the literal body being cast in at the end of time, so for the Immortal Soul crowd to claim some ancient Rich Man was cast literally cast bodily into hellfire at his death makes a dichotomy between what Jesus says here and what He says elsewhere.
LOL No, podner, Luke 16 proves the Immortal Soul crowd lacks hermeneutical skill, Holy Spirit discernment, and plain ol' common sense.
Totally subjective conclusion which excludes the testimony of other non-symbolic Scriptures such as "the soul that sinneth, it shall die". Only in the insane clown world of "immortal soul" doctrine does "death" = "life eternal in torment".
Can you hear how silly you sound? They refused the gift of eternal life in heaven so they're granted eternal life of torture. It's utter madness, this logic. "No murderer hath eternal life abiding in him" but the Immortal Soul crowd says, "NO! The wicked have eternal life in flames of torment!"
This is how clown world insane the Immortal Soul crowd is:
(1) they refuse to believe God "only hath immortality" (1 Timothy 6:15-16 KJV)
(2) they claim humans have innate immortality and deny Paul's plain words that we must seek for it if we are to recieve it (Romans 2:7-9 KJV)
(3) and somehow humanity has to spend eternity alive in the LoF though God told Satan "never shalt thou be anymore" (Ezekiel 28:18-19 KJV)
**SPOILER ALERT**
Freegrace2 is going to ignore these texts and continue appealing to Rich Man parables, Revelation symbolic imagery, and Paul's human desires rather than Paul's inspired truths.
Now, that's the best one of them all right there! Until you can explain how the three dead dudes can have tongues, eyes, fingers, and bosoms before the Resurrections of the Just and Damned at the end of time, you haven't proven a thing.Freegrace2 is going to ignore these texts and continue appealing to Rich Man parables, Revelation symbolic imagery, and Paul's human desires rather than Paul's inspired truths.
Genesis 2:7 KJV can't be any more plain that the Spirit is what God breathes, the body is what God breathes it into, and the Soul is the result of this union.
I'm not wasting my time on people who lack basic reading comprehension skills. You're ignorance is only eclipsed by your arrogance. GOD NEVER BREATHED THE "SOUL" INTO ANYTHING - HE BREATHED THE "BREATH OF LIFE" AKA "SPIRIT OF LIFE" IN ADAM LIKE IT WAS BREATHED INTO THE TWO WITNESSES IN REVELATION 11 (WHICH, BY THE WAY, IS SYMBOLIC - NOT TWO ACTUAL DUDES).
I'm not wasting my time on people who lack basic reading comprehension skills. You're ignorance is only eclipsed by your arrogance. GOD NEVER BREATHED THE "SOUL" INTO ANYTHING - HE BREATHED THE "BREATH OF LIFE" AKA "SPIRIT OF LIFE" IN ADAM LIKE IT WAS BREATHED INTO THE TWO WITNESSES IN REVELATION 11 (WHICH, BY THE WAY, IS SYMBOLIC - NOT TWO ACTUAL DUDES).
You still haven't explained how the Rich Man is literal when the three dead dudes have tongues, eyes, fingers, and bosoms thousands of years before the Bible says the dead will have them...but, hey, whatever it takes to keep praying to Mary, St. Pedophile, St. Child Molester, Pope JPII, etc., right?
Yes, God sent forth the Breath of Life which entered Adam's body and the union of the two produced Adam the Living Soul (Genesis 2:7 KJV).
When Adam died:
1) Adam's body returned to dust (Ecclesiastes 3:20 KJV)
2) Breath of Life gathered and returned to God exactly as IT was when IT went forth (Job 34:14-15 KJV)
3) Adam ceased to exist (1 Timothy 6:15-16 KJV)
See what I did there? I utilized "Logic Progression" to show you how redonkulous it is to teach Immortal Soul doctrine.
When Adam died:
1) Adam's body returned to dust (Ecclesiastes 3:20 KJV)
2) Breath of Life gathered and returned to God exactly as IT was when IT went forth (Job 34:14-15 KJV)
3) Adam ceased to exist (1 Timothy 6:15-16 KJV)
See what I did there? I utilized "Logic Progression" to show you how redonkulous it is to teach Immortal Soul doctrine.
There is no symbolism about seeing souls shouting for justice. But you are forced to make up your indefensible defense to maintain your theory.
You know nothing of the sort. The 2 verses are very clear. He SAID he would rather depart and be WITH CHRIST. I gave you what he would have written if he believed your theory.
So you think I "have to" explain the account that Jesus gave? What's wrong with just believing what He said?? That's your problem. It refutes and defies your theory so you are forced to make up something about the account being a parable.
So, what was Jesus teaching by this "parable"?
And I suppose you reject that Samuel came back from Paradise to give King Saul a message and told him that he would be with Samuel the next day.
You have rejected a lot of Scripture to maintain your fantasies.
You know nothing of the sort. The 2 verses are very clear. He SAID he would rather depart and be WITH CHRIST. I gave you what he would have written if he believed your theory.
So you think I "have to" explain the account that Jesus gave? What's wrong with just believing what He said?? That's your problem. It refutes and defies your theory so you are forced to make up something about the account being a parable.
So, what was Jesus teaching by this "parable"?
And I suppose you reject that Samuel came back from Paradise to give King Saul a message and told him that he would be with Samuel the next day.
You have rejected a lot of Scripture to maintain your fantasies.
Eccl 12:7 puts it all together. Give gives the soul, and God receives the soul. So your theory about Adam is as flawed as all your other theories.
And you talk about ignorance in others. Sheesh. The "breath of life" IS the soul. As I explained.
Eccl 12:7 - and the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.
I'm trying to help out your ignorance about matters here. The verse very clearly says that God GIVES the spirit and it returns to God.
you really love to make up stuff, don't you.
In the OT there were 2 prophets who didn't physically die; Enoch and Elijah. They will get their chance in the Tribulation.
Henry Morris does a great job of explaining why it is these 2 men in his commentary "The Revelation Record".
But don't bother with facts, since your mind is already made up.
And you talk about ignorance in others. Sheesh. The "breath of life" IS the soul. As I explained.
Eccl 12:7 - and the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.
I'm trying to help out your ignorance about matters here. The verse very clearly says that God GIVES the spirit and it returns to God.
you really love to make up stuff, don't you.
In the OT there were 2 prophets who didn't physically die; Enoch and Elijah. They will get their chance in the Tribulation.
Henry Morris does a great job of explaining why it is these 2 men in his commentary "The Revelation Record".
But don't bother with facts, since your mind is already made up.
I have explained it. But you have your eyes and ears closed so as to not be influenced by facts. Rather than just make up whatever it takes to defend your theory, rational people will understand that souls have form. And they are recognizable. You've been given the facts, but if your eyes and ears remain cemented, you'll never learn a thing.
What a lowlife kind of comment. But it probably makes you feel superior, right?
What a lowlife kind of comment. But it probably makes you feel superior, right?
So in your view, when Christ was crucified he went and preached to the spirits of those who had lived previously. (I agree with that) Then Christ left them where they were at his resurrection until his ascension, when he returned to them and took them to Heaven. Have you scripture to support this sequence of events?
14 If he set his heart upon man, if he gather unto himself his spirit and his breath;
15 All flesh shall perish together, and man shall turn again unto dust.
Well, as usual, your verses don't say what you claim. It is about the FLESH dying, not the soul. Can't you read plain English?
15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed andonly Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
16 Whoonly hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.
Once again, you failed to comprehend the verses. They DON'T say that any soul perishes. Quit making up stuff.
If you believe that Adam "ceased to exist", then he won't be at the resurrection then. How ridiculous.
I sure did. You repeatedly fail to comprehend simple English and therefore FAIL to grasp verses.
You previously stated Jesus took the believers to Heaven on his way to Heaven. If you are correct. Christ must have preached to the spirits of the departed when he died at Calvary, left them where they were, rose from the grave and at some point after he saw Mary just after his resurrection he returned to those spirits, took them to Heaven and then returned to earth until his ascension in Acts ch1. Have you scripture to support this chain of events?
That can't be it. That is worse than using 1 Thess 4;17. 2 Thess is the correcting of 1 Thess 4. I see you didn't let the Scripture speak. WHY is that?
Don't worry, I will.
THE SUBJECT 2 Thess 2
1 We implore now you brothers by the coming of the Lord of us Jesus Christ and our gathering together unto Him
2 for not quickly to be shaken you in mind nor to be troubled neither by spirit nor by word nor by letter as if by us as that is present the day of the Lord
3 No one you should deceive in not one way because {it is} if not {until} shall have come the apostasy first and shall have been revealed the man of lawlessness the son of destruction
THIS IS THE VERSE YOU ARE SAYING THE WORDS OF GOD ARE SAYING IS THE TIMING FOR THE PRE TRIB CHURCH RAPTURE' TIMING, CORRECT?
The above is THE VERSE IN THE GREEK
IF NOT SHALL HAVE COME - if it hasn't yet happened, if it hasn't taken place, if these events haven't come about
THE APOSTASY - the falling away
FIRST - before, previous, ahead of, prior to
AND SHALL HAVE BEEN REVEALED - exposed, unveiled, displayed, made public, unmasked, made known
THE MAN OF LAWLESSNESS, THE SON OF DESTRUCTION - SATAN
IN NO WAY IS IT POSSIBLE FOR US TO BE GATHERED UNTO THE LORD UNTIL AFTER THE FALLING AWAY THE SATAN REVEALED
BUT SINCE PAUL IS CORRECTING AN ISSUE FROM THE FIRST LETTER HE IS GOING TO DO IT 3 TIMES IN A ROW, THAT WAS ONE
4 the {one} opposing and exalting himself above every so-called god or object of worship so as for him in the temple of God to sit down setting forth he himself that is God
5 Not do you remember that yet being with you these things I was saying to you?
6 And now that which is restraining you know for to be revealed him in his time
7 The for mystery already is working of lawlessness only {there is} the {one} restraining {it} at present until out of {the} midst he might be {gone}
8 And then will be revealed the lawless {one} whom the Lord Jesus will slay with the breath of the mouth of Him and will annul by the appearing of the coming of Him
THAT'S THE 2ND TIME THE ORDER OF EVENTS ARE GIVEN TO BE SURE EVERYONE UNDERSTANDS
9 whose is coming according to {the} working of Satan in every power and in signs and in wonders of falsehood
THAT IS NUMBER 3.
Three times in 3 different ways Paul tells the same thing.
Satan comes first, Satan comes first, Satan comes first
Christ comes after the falling away, Christ comes after the man of sin revealed, Christ comes after the working of Satan
10 and in every deceit of wickedness unto those perishing in return for which the love of the truth not they received in order for to be saved them.
11 And because of this will send God a working of delusion for to believe them what {is} false
12 in order that should be judged all those not having believed the truth but having delighted in unrighteousness
13 We however ought to give thanks to God always concerning you brothers beloved by {the} Lord that has chosen you God from {the} beginning unto salvation in {the}sanctification of {the} Spirit and {by} faith of {the} truth
14 to this also He called you through the gospel of us to {the} obtaining of {the} glory of the Lord
15 So then brothers stand firm and hold fast to the traditions that you were taught whether by word or by letter from us
16 Himself now the Lord of us Jesus Christ and God the Father of us the {One} having loved us and having given {us} comfort eternal and hope good by grace
17 may He encourage your hearts and may He strengthen {them} in every work and word good
Don't worry, I will.
THE SUBJECT 2 Thess 2
1 We implore now you brothers by the coming of the Lord of us Jesus Christ and our gathering together unto Him
2 for not quickly to be shaken you in mind nor to be troubled neither by spirit nor by word nor by letter as if by us as that is present the day of the Lord
3 No one you should deceive in not one way because {it is} if not {until} shall have come the apostasy first and shall have been revealed the man of lawlessness the son of destruction
THIS IS THE VERSE YOU ARE SAYING THE WORDS OF GOD ARE SAYING IS THE TIMING FOR THE PRE TRIB CHURCH RAPTURE' TIMING, CORRECT?
The above is THE VERSE IN THE GREEK
IF NOT SHALL HAVE COME - if it hasn't yet happened, if it hasn't taken place, if these events haven't come about
THE APOSTASY - the falling away
FIRST - before, previous, ahead of, prior to
AND SHALL HAVE BEEN REVEALED - exposed, unveiled, displayed, made public, unmasked, made known
THE MAN OF LAWLESSNESS, THE SON OF DESTRUCTION - SATAN
IN NO WAY IS IT POSSIBLE FOR US TO BE GATHERED UNTO THE LORD UNTIL AFTER THE FALLING AWAY THE SATAN REVEALED
BUT SINCE PAUL IS CORRECTING AN ISSUE FROM THE FIRST LETTER HE IS GOING TO DO IT 3 TIMES IN A ROW, THAT WAS ONE
4 the {one} opposing and exalting himself above every so-called god or object of worship so as for him in the temple of God to sit down setting forth he himself that is God
5 Not do you remember that yet being with you these things I was saying to you?
6 And now that which is restraining you know for to be revealed him in his time
7 The for mystery already is working of lawlessness only {there is} the {one} restraining {it} at present until out of {the} midst he might be {gone}
8 And then will be revealed the lawless {one} whom the Lord Jesus will slay with the breath of the mouth of Him and will annul by the appearing of the coming of Him
THAT'S THE 2ND TIME THE ORDER OF EVENTS ARE GIVEN TO BE SURE EVERYONE UNDERSTANDS
9 whose is coming according to {the} working of Satan in every power and in signs and in wonders of falsehood
THAT IS NUMBER 3.
Three times in 3 different ways Paul tells the same thing.
Satan comes first, Satan comes first, Satan comes first
Christ comes after the falling away, Christ comes after the man of sin revealed, Christ comes after the working of Satan
10 and in every deceit of wickedness unto those perishing in return for which the love of the truth not they received in order for to be saved them.
11 And because of this will send God a working of delusion for to believe them what {is} false
12 in order that should be judged all those not having believed the truth but having delighted in unrighteousness
13 We however ought to give thanks to God always concerning you brothers beloved by {the} Lord that has chosen you God from {the} beginning unto salvation in {the}sanctification of {the} Spirit and {by} faith of {the} truth
14 to this also He called you through the gospel of us to {the} obtaining of {the} glory of the Lord
15 So then brothers stand firm and hold fast to the traditions that you were taught whether by word or by letter from us
16 Himself now the Lord of us Jesus Christ and God the Father of us the {One} having loved us and having given {us} comfort eternal and hope good by grace
17 may He encourage your hearts and may He strengthen {them} in every work and word good