Does 1 Thessalonians 4:14-18 Teach Jesus Will Return With Dead Saints Now With Him In Heaven?

[ewq1938]

Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire. Rev20:11-15

So if I understand you correctly, the above verses do not at all refer to the saved, only the unsaved? It would seem to me, if that were true verse 15 should read: ''They were all thrown into the lake of fire'', for none of their names could have been found in the book of life.'' So I am not sure why the book of life would have been opened if no one there was in it

It's just a confirmation. The books are opened at the judgment of the saved, and opened at the judgment of the unsaved. All the saved dead are and judged at the same time so a thousand years later "the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished" are only the unsaved dead.

Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

Here we have a group of people who are being judged. They don't arrive from any specific place. They are simply there at the great white throne to be judged. Could it be these are the ones in Rev 20:9 that are killed by fire from God? Perhaps God decided these did not have to die and then be taken to Hades since it is the time of judgment?


Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

After the first group are judged there are more that come from the sea and from death and hell. These were not already in the judging area like the first group were. We are seeing the dead being judged in stages. First a group that is not said to have arrived from elsewhere are judged. Then after that people start arriving from 3 places: hell, death and the sea. All of these imply deep dark places.

I believe that first group were the rebels of the little season and they died here upon the Earth and they were judged here instead of going to hades/hell which normally would occur. Then, those who are elsewhere are brought forth to also be judged.

This would explain why some are judged first, then others being judged afterwards from 3 separate places. So the last judgment has people who are from 4 different places:

1. Those already at the judgment area
2. Those from the sea
3. Those from death
4. Those from hell (hades)

There are no righteous from among these dead:

Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, STAND before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Notice they are still described as being dead despite having been resurrected and standing. Despite being physically alive, they are spiritually dead.



Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.


Sea, death and hell and it's interesting that all these places cease to exist in the eternity. Death and hell are cast into the LOF and the seas just cease to exist. The places of the ungodly dead are no longer needed in the eternity.

 

[DavidTree]

Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire. Rev20:11-15

So if I understand you correctly, the above verses do not at all refer to the saved, only the unsaved? It would seem to me, if that were true verse 15 should read: ''They were all thrown into the lake of fire'', for none of their names could have been found in the book of life.'' So I am not sure why the book of life would have been opened if no one there was in it

‘These things says the First and the Last, who was dead, and came to life: “I know your works, tribulation, and poverty (but you are rich); and I know the blasphemy of those who say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan. Do not fear any of those things which you are about to suffer. Indeed, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and you will have tribulation ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.
“He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.
He who overcomes shall not be hurt by the second death.” ’ Rev 2:8-11

And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished.
This is the first resurrection.
Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection.
Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years. Revelation 20:4-6

According to Christ, we are to make sure we are part of the First Resurrection = according to Christ.

 

[Faithiskey1]

‘These things says the First and the Last, who was dead, and came to life: “I know your works, tribulation, and poverty (but you are rich); and I know the blasphemy of those who say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan. Do not fear any of those things which you are about to suffer. Indeed, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and you will have tribulation ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.
“He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.
He who overcomes shall not be hurt by the second death.” ’ Rev 2:8-11

And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished.
This is the first resurrection.
Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection.
Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years. Revelation 20:4-6

According to Christ, we are to make sure we are part of the First Resurrection = according to Christ.

Then we must hope we are part of the following as described:
Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

 

[DavidTree]

Then we must hope we are part of the following as described:
Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

There is a reason why Christ worded this as such and He did it for our sakes because of satan's lies and confusion in the churches.

 

[Faithiskey1]

There is a reason why Christ worded this as such and He did it for our sakes because of satan's lies and confusion in the churches.

But if we took the bible literally, how many of us will be beheaded, or received a mark on our foreheads and hands? I do believe we have to be very careful with revelation, more so than other books I would add

 

[DavidTree]

But if we took the bible literally, how many of us will be beheaded, or received a mark on our foreheads and hands? I do believe we have to be very careful with revelation, more so than other books I would add

AGREE - This is why i said: "There is a reason why Christ worded this as such(Rev ch20) and He did it for our sakes because of satan's lies and confusion in the churches."

Christ also warns each of us this: "I testify to everyone who hears the words of prophecy in this book: If anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. And if anyone takes away from the words of this book of prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and the holy city, which are described in this book." Rev 22:18-19

HE knows what HE is saying and why HE said it.

It is for us to submit unto His Word so that we can be protected and sanctified in His Truth.

I am not asking that You take them out of the world, but that You keep them from the evil one. They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. Sanctify them by the truth; Your word is truth. As You sent Me into the world, I have also sent them into the world. For them I sanctify Myself, so that they too may be sanctified by the truth.
John ch17

 

[ewq1938]

Then we must hope we are part of the following as described:
Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

We can also be of these:

Rev 2:25 But that which ye have already hold fast till I come.
Rev 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
Rev 2:27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.
Rev 2:28 And I will give him the morning star.

or these:

1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

 

[DavidTree]

We can also be of these:

Rev 2:25 But that which ye have already hold fast till I come.
Rev 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
Rev 2:27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.
Rev 2:28 And I will give him the morning star.

or these:

1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Stop giving the answers to the Test..............make em work for it so that they may be approved by sanctification in the Truth.

 

[Faithiskey1]

We can also be of these:

Rev 2:25 But that which ye have already hold fast till I come.
Rev 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
Rev 2:27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.
Rev 2:28 And I will give him the morning star.

or these:

1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Forgive me, but the first resurrection specifically refers to the following people:
Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

 

[DavidTree]

Forgive me, but the first resurrection specifically refers to the following people:
Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

It specifically mentions those who gave up their life for the Testimony of Christ and to attain unto the First Resurrection.

There is a reason why Christ worded this as such and He did it for our sakes because of satan's lies and confusion in the churches.

Post #927 Brother ewq1938 gave you some of the answers to the Truth.

 

[Faithiskey1]

It specifically mentions those who gave up their life for the Testimony of Christ and to attain unto the First Resurrection.

There is a reason why Christ worded this as such and He did it for our sakes because of satan's lies and confusion in the churches.

Post #927 Brother ewq1938 gave you some of the answers to the Truth.

Well, in my view, the last day, when Christ said he would raise up those who believe in him is the last day of this present earth, as described in Rev20:11-15&21:1-4.
However, this is not the most important subject for Christians to consider is it. All saved believers will end up in Heaven.

 

[ewq1938]

Forgive me, but the first resurrection specifically refers to the following people:
Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

They are the only ones mentioned in Revelation 20 but they aren't the only ones to be part of that resurrection. The souls in the 5th seal will be part of it as will be all the dead in Christ.

 

[ewq1938]

Well, in my view, the last day, when Christ said he would raise up those who believe in him is the last day of this present earth, as described in Rev20:11-15&21:1-4.
However, this is not the most important subject for Christians to consider is it. All saved believers will end up in Heaven.

Actually they will all end up on the Earth. Even God the Father will leave heaven to dwell with man on the Earth.

Heaven will remain where it is but eternity is spent upon the Earth and The Father and Son will be upon the Earth as well. That doesn't mean no one can go to heaven during the eternity but the primary home will be the Earth according to various scriptures. Rev 21-22 indicate this but there are other scriptures as well. Basically heaven is a temporary place for God and the angels and the spirits of the dead. Eventually all will inhabit the Earth.

1Ch_23:25 For David said, The LORD God of Israel hath given rest unto his people, that they may dwell in Jerusalem for ever:

Rev_5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

Psa_37:9 For evildoers shall be cut off: but those that wait upon the LORD, they shall inherit the earth.

Psa_37:11 But the meek shall inherit the earth; and shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace.

Psa_37:22 For such as be blessed of him shall inherit the earth; and they that be cursed of him shall be cut off.

Mat_5:5 Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.

Job_19:25 For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:

Zec 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
Zec 14:17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
Rev 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.


Rev 21:10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,
Rev 21:11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;
Rev 21:12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:
Rev 21:13 On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates.
Rev 21:14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
Rev 21:15 And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof.
Rev 21:16 And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal.
Rev 21:17 And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel.
Rev 21:18 And the building of the wall of it was of jasper: and the city was pure gold, like unto clear glass.
Rev 21:19 And the foundations of the wall of the city were garnished with all manner of precious stones. The first foundation was jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, a chalcedony; the fourth, an emerald;
Rev 21:20 The fifth, sardonyx; the sixth, sardius; the seventh, chrysolite; the eighth, beryl; the ninth, a topaz; the tenth, a chrysoprasus; the eleventh, a jacinth; the twelfth, an amethyst.
Rev 21:21 And the twelve gates were twelve pearls; every several gate was of one pearl: and the street of the city was pure gold, as it were transparent glass.
Rev 21:22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.



It is not man who will go to heaven to dwell with the Father and Jesus in the eternity but the Father and Jesus dwelling with Man upon the new Earth!

Heaven is the temporary dwelling place for God, angels and the spirits of the dead saints. The eternal home for all is the new Earth.

 

[Faithiskey1]

They are the only ones mentioned in Revelation 20 but they aren't the only ones to be part of that resurrection. The souls in the 5th seal will be part of it as will be all the dead in Christ.

Well I wouldn't wish to go into a deep discussion on revelation. I constantly read the books of the NT in order, careful to miss none out-apart from revelation that is. I have only read it a few times.

 

[Faithiskey1]

Actually they will all end up on the Earth. Even God the Father will leave heaven to dwell with man on the Earth.

Heaven will remain where it is but eternity is spent upon the Earth and The Father and Son will be upon the Earth as well. That doesn't mean no one can go to heaven during the eternity but the primary home will be the Earth according to various scriptures. Rev 21-22 indicate this but there are other scriptures as well. Basically heaven is a temporary place for God and the angels and the spirits of the dead. Eventually all will inhabit the Earth.

1Ch_23:25 For David said, The LORD God of Israel hath given rest unto his people, that they may dwell in Jerusalem for ever:

Rev_5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

Psa_37:9 For evildoers shall be cut off: but those that wait upon the LORD, they shall inherit the earth.

Psa_37:11 But the meek shall inherit the earth; and shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace.

Psa_37:22 For such as be blessed of him shall inherit the earth; and they that be cursed of him shall be cut off.

Mat_5:5 Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.

Job_19:25 For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:

Zec 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
Zec 14:17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
Rev 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.


Rev 21:10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,
Rev 21:11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;
Rev 21:12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:
Rev 21:13 On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates.
Rev 21:14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
Rev 21:15 And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof.
Rev 21:16 And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal.
Rev 21:17 And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel.
Rev 21:18 And the building of the wall of it was of jasper: and the city was pure gold, like unto clear glass.
Rev 21:19 And the foundations of the wall of the city were garnished with all manner of precious stones. The first foundation was jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, a chalcedony; the fourth, an emerald;
Rev 21:20 The fifth, sardonyx; the sixth, sardius; the seventh, chrysolite; the eighth, beryl; the ninth, a topaz; the tenth, a chrysoprasus; the eleventh, a jacinth; the twelfth, an amethyst.
Rev 21:21 And the twelve gates were twelve pearls; every several gate was of one pearl: and the street of the city was pure gold, as it were transparent glass.
Rev 21:22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.



It is not man who will go to heaven to dwell with the Father and Jesus in the eternity but the Father and Jesus dwelling with Man upon the new Earth!

Heaven is the temporary dwelling place for God, angels and the spirits of the dead saints. The eternal home for all is the new Earth.

We totally agree, God the Father and His Son will dwell with believers for eternity on the new earth which will be where the old one is now

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
I do not believe the 2W are resurrected, meaning that is when they will receive their glorified bodies.

Well, they still are resurrected though. There are two types. Resurrection back to mortal life, or resurrection unto immortal life.

And the resurrection to immortal life, meaning receiving a glorified body, occurs for ALL believers at the same event.

Which also proves flesh and blood can enter heaven. Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God but heaven and entering is something different. I'm not saying you believe in either of that, I am just saying to all who are reading.

Well, that is obvious, since the 2W came from heaven and went back to heaven. All without glorified bodies.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
Jesus was referring to the place where all OT believers went at death, Paradise. Paradise, also known as Abraham's bosom, is in Hades, a compartment different than Torments, where all the unsaved in the OT went, and still go to when they die.

That's not correct. Hades and Abraham's bosom are two separate places, separated by a gulf. Abraham's bosom not in Hades. That's like saying Heaven is inside the lake of fire.

Well, it IS correct. You are confused. Luke 16 gives us the account of Abraham's bosom, where Abraham was. The rich man in torments was unable to get to Abraham due to a great gulf between them.

 

[FreeGrace2]

However, this is not the most important subject for Christians to consider is it. All saved believers will end up in Heaven.

Not exactly. Believers "raptured" at the resurrection of the saved, will never end up in heaven. They will stay on earth and reign with Christ for 1,000 years. And then the present earth will "pass away" and there will be a new earth. And God the Father will come down from heaven and reside on the new earth.

 

[Faithiskey1]

Not exactly. Believers "raptured" at the resurrection of the saved, will never end up in heaven. They will stay on earth and reign with Christ for 1,000 years. And then the present earth will "pass away" and there will be a new earth. And God the Father will come down from heaven and reside on the new earth.

What do you want to do hear? Debate whether the new earth can be referred to as Heaven?

 

[Phoneman-777]

There is no symbolism about seeing souls shouting for justice. But you are forced to make up your indefensible defense to maintain your theory.

It must be because there's no such thing as a "disembodied soul" seeing that the Soul comes into existence only as a consequence of the union of the Body and the Breath of Life (Genesis 2:7 KJV), not to mention that Revelation is the most symbolic book of the Bible

You know nothing of the sort. The 2 verses are very clear. He SAID he would rather depart and be WITH CHRIST. I gave you what he would have written if he believed your theory.

Paul's desire has nothing to do with Divine Order. Paul said himself is the dead don't rise, the sleeping in Christ are perished. There's nothing in his words which demand his presence in the one location immediately follows the other, no matter how much you subjectively claim there is.

So you think I "have to" explain the account that Jesus gave? What's wrong with just believing what He said?? That's your problem. It refutes and defies your theory so you are forced to make up something about the account being a parable.

When you realize the things Jesus happened in the story of the Rich Man and Lazarus are impossible per the rest of Scritpure, your left with only two choices: He's lying or He's telling a parable. Take your pick.

And I suppose you reject that Samuel came back from Paradise to give King Saul a message and told him that he would be with Samuel the next day. You have rejected a lot of Scripture to maintain your fantasies.

Paradise is UP (please don't deny this because you've embarrassed yourself enough) but "Samuel" came up from someplace DOWN. Again, "Samuel" could only have been a demon impersonating Samuel because "the living know that they shall die, but the dead know not anything".