For anyone that thinks they have been SAVED since they were born

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S

SantoSubito

Guest
#21
First off the RCC as we know it now was not in existence at this time.All of these quotes are from well before the Church had split, at this time there were not Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, and Oriental Orthodox; there was simply the Christian Church. Secondly, I do believe that you will not find one verse in scripture that says either "you must baptize only adults" or "you must not baptize children". Finally, you didn't actually address any of the statements that the ECF's made you just denounced them as heretical. Which in the case of my very first quote I find especially disturbing, because Hippolytus was a disciple of Irenaeus who was a disciple of Polycarp who was a disciple of St. John (AKA the author of the Gospel of John and the letters of John).

But please explain to me how paedobaptism became the standard practice for the Christian Church in such a short span of time after the death of the last apostle in 100 AD? Paul called baptism the circumcision of Christ, in Col. 2:11-12. So is it such a stretch to assume that the new circumcision would be performed upon infants as well? These new Christians would have been Jewish so for them it would have made perfect since for their children to be brought into the new covenant as infants just like they were brought into the old covenant as infants.
 
Jan 18, 2011
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#22
Romans chapter 9's context is talking about the election of Israel, not the election of salvation. Go through and read it and you will see that.
That's what you said last time, and I responded and showed why this is incorrect then and there. You didn't read your response. No need to repeat myself here. Go back and read it in the previous thread.
 
Jan 18, 2011
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#23
That's what you said last time, and I responded and showed why this is incorrect then and there. You didn't read your response. No need to repeat myself here. Go back and read it in the previous thread.
Here's a reposting.

1 I tell the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Spirit, 2 that I have great sorrow and continual grief in my heart. 3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my countrymen according to the flesh, 4 who are Israelites, to whom pertain the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the service of God, and the promises; 5 of whom are the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ came, who is over all, the eternally blessed God. Amen. 6 But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, 7 nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, "In Isaac your seed shall be called." 8 That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed. 9 For this is the word of promise: "At this time I will come and Sarah shall have a son." 10 And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac 11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), 12 it was said to her, "The older shall serve the younger." 13 As it is written, "Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated." 14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! 15 For He says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion." 16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth." 18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens. 19 You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?" 20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, "Why have you made me like this?" 21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor? 22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? 25 As He says also in Hosea: "I will call them My people, who were not My people, And her beloved, who was not beloved." 26 "And it shall come to pass in the place where it was said to them, 'You are not My people,' There they shall be called sons of the living God." 27 Isaiah also cries out concerning Israel: "Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, The remnant will be saved. 28 For He will finish the work and cut it short in righteousness, Because the Lord will make a short work upon the earth." 29 And as Isaiah said before: "Unless the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, We would have become like Sodom, And we would have been made like Gomorrah." 30 What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness of faith; 31 but Israel, pursuing the law of righteousness, has not attained to the law of righteousness. 32 Why? Because they did not seek it by faith, but as it were, by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumbling stone. 33 As it is written: "Behold, I lay in Zion a stumbling stone and rock of offense, And whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame." (Romans 9)

Israel is only a part of what it's talking about here. There's a lot more to it than that. As far as election goes, verse 11 is talking about the election of people, Jacob and Esau, not Israel. It mentions Rebecca conceiving by Isaac. It refers to them as "children," "not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls." All one has to do is read this to realize it's talking about people, not Israel.

9 For this is the word of promise: "At this time I will come and Sarah shall have a son." 10 And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac 11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), 12 it was said to her, "The older shall serve the younger." 13 As it is written, "Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated." (Romans 9:9-13)

Verse 15 is also talking about people: it says "whomever."

15 For He says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion." (Romans 9:15)

Verse 16 makes this clear. It speaks of "him who wills" and "him who runs."

16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. (Romans 9:16)

Verse 17 is also talking about a person, Pharaoh. There's no way this could be a reference to Israel.

17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth." (Romans 9:17)

Verse 18 is again talking about people, speaking of "whom He wills" and "whom He hardens."

18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens. (Romans 9:18)

Verse 19 is talking about people: "who has resisted His will?"

19 You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?" (Romans 9:19)

If there were any doubt at this point, verse 20 does away with it. Who is it talking about here? "O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing [man] formed say to him who formed it, "Why have you made me [man] like this?"

20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, "Why have you made me like this?" (Romans 9:20)

That's how we know the vessels in the following verses are men.

21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor? 22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, (Romans 9:21-23)

And finally, verse 24 says explicitly that we're not talking about just Israel here, but all mankind: "not ... the Jews only, but also ... the Gentiles."

24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? (Romans 9:24)
 
C

Cmedic57

Guest
#24
Hmmmm ... have read all the posts so far on this subject and would like to give my view on it ... though am sure this view may be shared by most spiritually reborn believers.

First off we are saved by grace through faith ... it is something we cannot earn by our own efforts. Jesus paid the price for your sins. All you need to do is come to the realization that you are a sinner and have no redeeming qualities whatsoever. For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God. There is no one who is righteous ... no not one. And there is no one who is good save God alone. You need to see that in order to be saved your need to repent of your inherent sins and accept the atoning sacrifice of Christ on the cross as your only means to obtain that salvation. We are saved by grace ... grace is only given by God to those who humble themselves before Him. Of course we must remember too that faith without works is dead ... this means that if you say you have faith in Christ but are not serving him (lazy and disobedient servant) then the truth is not in you and u are only decieving yourself (and others) but u cannot decieve God ... for what a man sows he will also reap ..if he sows to the flesh he will reap destruction... if he sows to the Spirit he will produce fruits of the Spirit that will last for an eternity.

As for sin ... there is no one who is considered innocent ... not even babies. ALL HAVE SINNED ... scripture cannot be broken or changed to suit our purposes. This may explain why God commanded the Israelites to kill the unborn children of the heathen tribes the Israelites were driving out of the promised land. He knew that these children would never come to know Him or worship Him ... He knows past, present and future and is not bound by time like we are. If they were allowed to live they would have been a thorn in Israel’s side. Regretably Isreal disobeyed God and allowed some to live to their eventual downfall. You may ask ..."what about children who die before they ask Jesus to forgive them”… well God knows their hearts. We are told in scripture that children of believing parent(s) are sanctified and so should they die even before they are born ... they will be with God. There have been Christians who have had near death experiences who have seen their children who have died in the womb or before they were old enough to accept Jesus and they were in heaven. Suffice it to say that God knows their hearts and will do what is just and right.

Adam was the first man ... he was created without sin. But Satan deceived him and Adam sinned against God ... and all man has inherited that sin ... the only way for that sin to be atoned for was for a second "sinless" Adam to die for the sins of the first and all his offspring. And it couldn’t just be an ordinary man ... it had to be God in flesh, for only God is perfect in all His ways ... even Adam who was created without blemish fell to temptation, but Jesus being God in flesh was tempted in every way we are yet did not sin ... for God cannot be untrue to Himself.

SO ... does being baptized save you ... NO IT DOES NOT. Look at the thief on the cross who accepted Jesus (eventually after he put him down for a bit). What saved him? ... he wasn't baptized ... so what saved him then? ... IT WAS HIS FAITH. It is your faith in Christ that saves you ... not water baptism. So why be baptized then and what is the significance of it? Well for one we are told to repent of our sins, accept Jesus are our Saviour and be baptized in water ... in that order. Baptize comes from the word baptizo and means immerse. If you see how John the Baptist did it ... "they came up out of the water" ...so they had to be totally immersed in the water to come up out of it ... make sense? What does baptism signify ... well if you read all the scriptures concerning water baptism you will see that when you accept Christ into your heart ... you die to your old self. So when you are immersed in water it is like you are buried ...your old man dies and is buried ...when you rise up out of the water this signifies the new birth ...the old has passed away and all things have become new. When Jesus was baptized ... the Holy Spirit came down like a dove and lighted on Him ... receiving the power He needed to start His ministry of redemption. Why be baptized? Well ... we are commanded to be baptized to show others our commitment to Christ and as a public witness that we have chosen to die to our old nature and take on the nature of Christ. Although it does not save you ... it is a public affirmation and confirmation of your faith.

Now someone quoted from the Apocryphia ...these are a collection of books by various authors before and after Christ's ministry that were deemed to be uninspired by the early church and were not included in the canon of scripture because they were not in agreement with the Old Testament and the writings of the Apostles. Some were heretical in nature. Somehow a few have made there way into the Catholic canon in recent years ..a sure sign that Satan is working overtime in these last days trying to confuse even the elect if that were possible. I have read all the books of the Apocryphia ... there is no life in them. The Spirit of Christ that indwells me has shown me that these are not inspired and have no life. They make for interesting and yes even comical reading ...it is amazing as to what lengths Satan will go to to decieve us, and how gullable ppl can be. BEWARE OF FALSE PROPHETS AND TEACHERS ... remember that the scriptures Jesus and the apostles quoted from and refered to were the Books of the Old Testament ..as the new had not even been written yet. So compare scripture of the old with that of the new ..all should be in agreement (and they are) ... be careful not to take scripture out of context or make a doctrine using one or two scriptures ...when the rest of the bible and the Spirit contadicts this doctrine. Be wise as serpents and innocent as doves ...do not aid Satan in his quest to decieve the body of Christ and cause division. As Jesus said ... "a house divided against itself cannot stand". Stand on Christ the solid rock and upon His teachings. Study and be familiar with the Old Testament for Jesus said that it spoke of Him and that in it's pages you will find life and salvation. May God bless you and keep you until the day He calls you home.


Oh must have a post scipt ... saved from birth ...well you may have been chosen by God well before that ... He knew you even before you were knitted together in your mothers womb. But to say you were saved from birth ... well that is not scriptural. You may have been chosen and santified by God ...but salvation is a work in progress ... for only those who do the will of the Father right up until the end of their life will be saved. I mean this is right from scripture " “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven." "All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved." “My beloved,work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.”
 
M

MaggieMye

Guest
#25
First off the RCC as we know it now was not in existence at this time.All of these quotes are from well before the Church had split, at this time there were not Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, and Oriental Orthodox; there was simply the Christian Church. Secondly, I do believe that you will not find one verse in scripture that says either "you must baptize only adults" or "you must not baptize children" PA LEEEEEASE!!! The scriptures are written to Believers....those that have CHOSEN Christ. It is written to those that can UNDERSTAND, who have ears to hear and eyes to see. Babies are intellectually UNABLE to do this. Finally, you didn't actually address any of the statements that the ECF's made you just denounced them as heretical. Right, because none of what they said is supported by Scripture. That in itself is addressing those UNBIBLICAL statements. Which in the case of my very first quote I find especially disturbing, because Hippolytus was a disciple of Irenaeus who was a disciple of Polycarp who was a disciple of St. John (AKA the author of the Gospel of John and the letters of John). So what! He was the friend of a friend of a friend....of a friend??? AND? His words do NOT carry the inspiration of the Holy Spirit and they do not carry the relevance, importance or validity that Scripture does. ALL scripture was written either by an apostle or very close friend/associate. NONE was written by the friend of a close associate or an apostle, let alone the friend of a friend. One of the requirements of text to be included in the Canon was that the text be written by an apostle that actually, personally knew Jesus, OR a close associate of one of those apostles. All else was considered fallible and was proven to conflict with the accepted books in one way or another. The unaccepted books containing conflicting error include the book of Enoch, Maccabbees and Egypt, among others.
But please explain to me how paedobaptism became the standard practice for the Christian Church in such a short span of time after the death of the last apostle in 100 AD? It is one of the ways that the enemy has infiltrated and steered people AWAY from DOING the Word of God. I was taught, raised RCC, that because I was baptized, I would go to heaven. But that is NOT what the Bible says! On the contrary, the Bible says that each person mush accept Christ as Savior and THEN, as an obedient act, be baptized. Paul called baptism the circumcision of Christ, in Col. 2:11-12.Let's get a little preclusion in here: Col 2: 6 Therefore as you have received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in Him, Babies cannot receive what they cannot acknowledge. Neither can they WALK or purpose to exude a Christ which they do not know. 7 having been firmly rooted and now being built up in Him and established in your faith,babies are not established in their faith, as they HAVE NO faith. just as you were instructed, and overflowing with gratitude. Babies do not receive instruction before the age of 1, nor are they thankful. Seriously...do you HAVE kids of your won??
8 See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men,Baby baptism IS a tradition of men. according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ. 9 For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form, 10 and in Him you have been made complete, and He is the head over all rule and authority; 11 and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands,This is a circumcision of the HEART (Rom 2:29) in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ;this speaks of removal of the CARNAL NATURE/flesh of the body of Christ/...the church 12 having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised up with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. You do not rightly divide the word and so take it out of context.

So is it such a stretch to assume that the new circumcision would be performed upon infants as well? And it is THIS TYPE of 'lacking understanding and knowledge' that brings you to this erroneous concept. The "New Circumcision" is that of the HEART. Circumcising the HEART is what a person CHOOSES to do when they are in right relationship with Christ. Babies do not HAVE RELATIONSHIPS. They have physical NEEDS that are met by the parents. Spiritually, all parents can do is DEDICATE THEM after they are born...which IS scriptural and the teach and guide them when then have the cognitive ability to comprehend. These new Christians would have been Jewish so for them it would have made perfect since for their children to be brought into the new covenant as infants just like they were brought into the old covenant as infants. Jewish tradition is to DEDICATE. Nowhere in scripture are WE told to do otherwise. Jewish people still do so today. And so do born again, Bible believing and adhering believers.

 
S

SantoSubito

Guest
#26
First off the RCC as we know it now was not in existence at this time.All of these quotes are from well before the Church had split, at this time there were not Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, and Oriental Orthodox; there was simply the Christian Church. Secondly, I do believe that you will not find one verse in scripture that says either "you must baptize only adults" or "you must not baptize children" PA LEEEEEASE!!! The scriptures are written to Believers....those that have CHOSEN Christ. It is written to those that can UNDERSTAND, who have ears to hear and eyes to see. Babies are intellectually UNABLE to do this. Finally, you didn't actually address any of the statements that the ECF's made you just denounced them as heretical. Right, because none of what they said is supported by Scripture. That in itself is addressing those UNBIBLICAL statements. Which in the case of my very first quote I find especially disturbing, because Hippolytus was a disciple of Irenaeus who was a disciple of Polycarp who was a disciple of St. John (AKA the author of the Gospel of John and the letters of John). So what! He was the friend of a friend of a friend....of a friend??? AND? His words do NOT carry the inspiration of the Holy Spirit and they do not carry the relevance, importance or validity that Scripture does. ALL scripture was written either by an apostle or very close friend/associate. NONE was written by the friend of a close associate or an apostle, let alone the friend of a friend. One of the requirements of text to be included in the Canon was that the text be written by an apostle that actually, personally knew Jesus, OR a close associate of one of those apostles. All else was considered fallible and was proven to conflict with the accepted books in one way or another. The unaccepted books containing conflicting error include the book of Enoch, Maccabbees and Egypt, among others.
But please explain to me how paedobaptism became the standard practice for the Christian Church in such a short span of time after the death of the last apostle in 100 AD? It is one of the ways that the enemy has infiltrated and steered people AWAY from DOING the Word of God. I was taught, raised RCC, that because I was baptized, I would go to heaven. But that is NOT what the Bible says! On the contrary, the Bible says that each person mush accept Christ as Savior and THEN, as an obedient act, be baptized. Paul called baptism the circumcision of Christ, in Col. 2:11-12.Let's get a little preclusion in here: Col 2: 6 Therefore as you have received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in Him, Babies cannot receive what they cannot acknowledge. Neither can they WALK or purpose to exude a Christ which they do not know. 7 having been firmly rooted and now being built up in Him and established in your faith,babies are not established in their faith, as they HAVE NO faith. just as you were instructed, and overflowing with gratitude. Babies do not receive instruction before the age of 1, nor are they thankful. Seriously...do you HAVE kids of your won??
8 See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men,Baby baptism IS a tradition of men. according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ. 9 For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form, 10 and in Him you have been made complete, and He is the head over all rule and authority; 11 and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands,This is a circumcision of the HEART (Rom 2:29) in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ;this speaks of removal of the CARNAL NATURE/flesh of the body of Christ/...the church 12 having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised up with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. You do not rightly divide the word and so take it out of context.

So is it such a stretch to assume that the new circumcision would be performed upon infants as well? And it is THIS TYPE of 'lacking understanding and knowledge' that brings you to this erroneous concept. The "New Circumcision" is that of the HEART. Circumcising the HEART is what a person CHOOSES to do when they are in right relationship with Christ. Babies do not HAVE RELATIONSHIPS. They have physical NEEDS that are met by the parents. Spiritually, all parents can do is DEDICATE THEM after they are born...which IS scriptural and the teach and guide them when then have the cognitive ability to comprehend. These new Christians would have been Jewish so for them it would have made perfect since for their children to be brought into the new covenant as infants just like they were brought into the old covenant as infants. Jewish tradition is to DEDICATE. Nowhere in scripture are WE told to do otherwise. Jewish people still do so today. And so do born again, Bible believing and adhering believers.

Honestly I give up having a discussion with you. You dismiss any evidence of the historicity of the practice as satanic you accuse the fathers of the faith (practically all protestant denominations call them such as well) of being heretics led by Satan. In fact from what I see you basically think anybody whose Christianity is not the same as yours is led by Satan. Not to mention your formating is horrendous. Honestly I can not in anyway shape or form see myself having a profitable discussion with you.

I'll leave you with a few things to mull over First, the idea of credo-baptism is fairly recent basically only popping up after the reformation. Second, when 4/5 of the worlds Christians can agree with paedobaptism I think thats a pretty strong indication that the Holy Spirit has led Christians in that direction (unless of course you deny they're saved and therefore do not have the Holy Spirit). Finally, If you want to debate it with people that have more patience than me just google Catholic Answers and post your question in the Non-Catholic Religions section.

Sometimes I wonder why I stick around here. As this site is clearly dominated by American Evangelicals, and primarily geared towards American Evangelicals.

I think you'll be surprised to find that when you get to heaven you'll see the Pope there a long with Catholics.

Pax.
 
M

MaggieMye

Guest
#27
Hosea 4:6, Prove 5:23, 7:7, 9:4, 9:16, 10:21 Keep studying. You'll get it!
 
Jan 18, 2011
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#28
Sometimes I wonder why I stick around here. As this site is clearly dominated by American Evangelicals, and primarily geared towards American Evangelicals.

I think you'll be surprised to find that when you get to heaven you'll see the Pope there a long with Catholics.
Though I believe it is impossible for a Catholic to be saved, I do not in the slightest mind you or anyone else with different views being here.

(Incidentally, in my experience, the vast majority of of people in evangelical churches do believe Catholics can be saved.)
 
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MaggieMye

Guest
#29
Honestly I give up having a discussion with you. You dismiss any evidence of the historicity of the practice as satanic you accuse the fathers of the faith (practically all protestant denominations call them such as well) of being heretics led by Satan. Don't put words in my mouth just because what I say upsets your traditional, religious background and upbringing. I said the enemy infiltrated. And, basically, ignorance is bliss. Right? Not. In fact from what I see you basically think anybody whose Christianity is not the same as yours is led by Satan. No. Ignorant, unBiblical practices not found in the Bible are tactics of Satan to deceive and bring about having people not DOING THE WORD, but doing the tradition of men. Not to mention your formating is horrendous. If you mean that I use different colored font to separate what I'm saying from the post I'm responding to, get over it. Many, many do the same on other discussion boards and it makes it easy to 'see' the conversation. Honestly I can not in anyway shape or form see myself having a profitable discussion with you. Is that because I grate against your nerves with what I put forth? If that is the case, then you need to ask the Lord, "WHY does it bother me so?"
I'll leave you with a few things to mull over First, the idea of credo-baptism is fairly recent basically only popping up after the reformation. No, it is found in scripture
Acts 18:8
Crispus, the leader of the synagogue, believed in the Lord with all his household, and many of the Corinthians when they heard were believing (first) and (then) being baptized. As you read here, you see that FIRST they believed, THEN they were baptized. Babies do not believe!! Ask one!!
Second, when 4/5 of the worlds Christians can agree with paedobaptism I think thats a pretty strong indication that the Holy Spirit has led Christians in that direction (unless of course you deny they're saved and therefore do not have the Holy Spirit). I do not deny they are saved. But that the majority of the body of Christ was/is deceived is also undeniable. And about 90% of that 4/5 isn't even Born again and so are not saved as they sit in their Sunday pews and not DOING the Word of God....or posisbily having recited the little salvation prayer and thinking they are "IN". They are not and Scripture is clear about this. Finally, If you want to debate it with people that have more patience than me just google Catholic Answers and post your question in the Non-Catholic Religions section.
I was raised Catholic. I have read the Bible several times and I know where the RCC makes their errors; practicing pagan ceremonies and rituals. Did you know the Pope answers to the Black Pope who is at the top of the Illumniatti?
Yeah...didn't think so.


Sometimes I wonder why I stick around here. It's because you want truth! But are you willing only to accept the familiar as truth? Or are you willing to consider that some of what you have been taught was a deception?? As this site is clearly dominated by American Evangelicals, and primarily geared towards American Evangelicals. I am not an Evangelical...I was, but I moved on because there was MORE of God to learn about.

I think you'll be surprised to find that when you get to heaven you'll see the Pope there a long with Catholics. Catholics, yes, many. But unless the Pope repents of his unBiblical ways, he will not be there. He cannot serve two gods.
 
C

Cmedic57

Guest
#31
I know many Catholics who are born again ... even a few priests and nuns who are. They choose to remain in the Catholic Church. "When the teachers of the law who were Pharisees saw Jesus eating with the sinners and tax collectors, they asked his disciples: “Why does he eat with tax collectors and sinners?” On hearing this, Jesus said to them, “It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners.” We are called to be Lights in this dark world ... if God impresses on born again Catholics to remain in the Catholic church ... then am sure He will keep them from falling. Some go to spirit-filled bible studies during the week or fellowship with born again believers who are thier friends who support them in prayer. Thought I would tell u all this so you know that God is at work in the Catholic church. God loves my catholic friends and so do I.^_^
 
D

Deadflesh

Guest
#32
Or from the foundation of the world, as I've seen in some of the bios, you were NOT.

Accepting Christ as Savior is a conscientious, intelligent, purposeful ACTION...a DECISION that a person makes and then acts upon.

If you have not verbally asked Jesus to be Lord of Your life, or declared that He is, YOU ARE NOT SAVED.
Rom 10:9-10.

A declaration that "Jesus is my Lord" is the TESTIMONY of your salvation.
Baby baptism does not save. Baby dedication does not save.

I think the peopel who say that in there status are alluding to this:

"According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:" Ephesians 1:4

Yes, you MUST have Christ Jesus as LORD. and ABIDE(obey) in Him to be saved. but i do beleive they allude to that verse.

And you are corect, but i would go on a bit further and say, NO baptism saves you accept the baptism of the Holy spirit.

"and this water symbolizes baptism(of the holy spirit) that now saves you also--not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ,"
1 Peter 3:21

"he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, " Titus 3:5

NO WORK saves. ONLY the Holy spirit.

And if you HAVE been Born again by The Spirit of God, then you WILL have a testimony. You WILL be able to show the difference between an regenerated sinner, and a Saint(occasionaly stumbling or not)

A baby cant have a testimony.

Not JUST Declaring that JESUS IS LORD is the testimony but an actual story of the regenration process. And SHOWING in action and deed, that CHRIST is LORD.

Though I believe it is impossible for a Catholic to be saved, I do not in the slightest mind you or anyone else with different views being here.
(Incidentally, in my experience, the vast majority of of people in evangelical churches do believe Catholics can be saved.)

With God ALL thigns are possible.

Whether i agree with your statement or not...that statement Doubts, and limits what GOD can do.


Wicked are wicked, God looks at the intent of the heart. HE will decide who HE is saving. Not us.

Even though i understand what you may mean.
Jesus bless you.
 
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Cmedic57

Guest
#33
Dear Pax ... I do not see myself as either protestant or catholic ... I have not affiliated myself with any denomination. In my search for the truth I have gone to many church groups ... even catholic ones. So for me it is easy to see errors in the doctines of every church denomination I have had the chance encounter of experiencing. I always asked God to guide me into all truth ... since He is the Truth. God is true and every man is a liar ... you may not think so but even if u sin in one area you are guilty of all. Who is the ruler of this world? If you said God you would be wrong ... it is Satan who is ruler of this world and every man that does not have the spirit of Christ in his/her heart is a servant of Satan. The world hates me ... all those who do not know God hate me ... I have felt this hatred many times ... even from non-Christian friends. I show them love ...but they for no reason at all will say things to me or do things that hurt ... but I forgive them because I know who is behind it ... we do not fight against flesh and blood but against the demonic influence of the evil one. No one is perfect save God ... no church denomination is perfect either ... not catholic or protestant. Although the church is being perfected ..true perfection will not come until the church is tried by fire and great tribulation, and even then upon His return only half will be spiritually ready (only 5 of the 10 virgins having enough oil for thier lamps). Any church that says they are the only true church I have trouble with ... for to me the true church is every born again believer in Christ whom God has chosen to be His sheep from the foundations of the world.
 
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SantoSubito

Guest
#34
Honestly I give up having a discussion with you. You dismiss any evidence of the historicity of the practice as satanic you accuse the fathers of the faith (practically all protestant denominations call them such as well) of being heretics led by Satan. Don't put words in my mouth just because what I say upsets your traditional, religious background and upbringing. I said the enemy infiltrated. And, basically, ignorance is bliss. Right? Not. In fact from what I see you basically think anybody whose Christianity is not the same as yours is led by Satan. No. Ignorant, unBiblical practices not found in the Bible are tactics of Satan to deceive and bring about having people not DOING THE WORD, but doing the tradition of men. Not to mention your formating is horrendous. If you mean that I use different colored font to separate what I'm saying from the post I'm responding to, get over it. Many, many do the same on other discussion boards and it makes it easy to 'see' the conversation. Honestly I can not in anyway shape or form see myself having a profitable discussion with you. Is that because I grate against your nerves with what I put forth? If that is the case, then you need to ask the Lord, "WHY does it bother me so?"
I'll leave you with a few things to mull over First, the idea of credo-baptism is fairly recent basically only popping up after the reformation. No, it is found in scripture
Acts 18:8
Crispus, the leader of the synagogue, believed in the Lord with all his household, and many of the Corinthians when they heard were believing (first) and (then) being baptized. As you read here, you see that FIRST they believed, THEN they were baptized. Babies do not believe!! Ask one!!
Second, when 4/5 of the worlds Christians can agree with paedobaptism I think thats a pretty strong indication that the Holy Spirit has led Christians in that direction (unless of course you deny they're saved and therefore do not have the Holy Spirit). I do not deny they are saved. But that the majority of the body of Christ was/is deceived is also undeniable. And about 90% of that 4/5 isn't even Born again and so are not saved as they sit in their Sunday pews and not DOING the Word of God....or posisbily having recited the little salvation prayer and thinking they are "IN". They are not and Scripture is clear about this. Finally, If you want to debate it with people that have more patience than me just google Catholic Answers and post your question in the Non-Catholic Religions section.
I was raised Catholic. I have read the Bible several times and I know where the RCC makes their errors; practicing pagan ceremonies and rituals. Did you know the Pope answers to the Black Pope who is at the top of the Illumniatti?
Yeah...didn't think so.


Sometimes I wonder why I stick around here. It's because you want truth! But are you willing only to accept the familiar as truth? Or are you willing to consider that some of what you have been taught was a deception?? As this site is clearly dominated by American Evangelicals, and primarily geared towards American Evangelicals. I am not an Evangelical...I was, but I moved on because there was MORE of God to learn about.

I think you'll be surprised to find that when you get to heaven you'll see the Pope there a long with Catholics. Catholics, yes, many. But unless the Pope repents of his unBiblical ways, he will not be there. He cannot serve two gods.
Like I said I'm done; I'm washing my hands of this discussion. If you want to discuss something like this over e-mail or some other source than perhaps we can do that someday.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#35
How did this become a catholic vs protestant thread?? wow!
 
R

rainacorn

Guest
#36
I keep trying to read this thread, but I get that barfy feeling.

This thread is full of evil. Walk away.
 
M

MaggieMye

Guest
#37
Wow! You contribute nothing to this thread and say THAT?? Yes, please, walk away.
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
#38
First off the RCC as we know it now was not in existence at this time.All of these quotes are from well before the Church had split, at this time there were not Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, and Oriental Orthodox; there was simply the Christian Church. Secondly, I do believe that you will not find one verse in scripture that says either "you must baptize only adults" or "you must not baptize children". Finally, you didn't actually address any of the statements that the ECF's made you just denounced them as heretical. Which in the case of my very first quote I find especially disturbing, because Hippolytus was a disciple of Irenaeus who was a disciple of Polycarp who was a disciple of St. John (AKA the author of the Gospel of John and the letters of John).

But please explain to me how paedobaptism became the standard practice for the Christian Church in such a short span of time after the death of the last apostle in 100 AD? Paul called baptism the circumcision of Christ, in Col. 2:11-12. So is it such a stretch to assume that the new circumcision would be performed upon infants as well? These new Christians would have been Jewish so for them it would have made perfect since for their children to be brought into the new covenant as infants just like they were brought into the old covenant as infants.
i santo.
i'm not against dedicating one's infants and children to Jesus.
He blessed them, said do not forbid them from coming.

i believe it is just a step of faith on the part of the parents and their local church that they desire that child to be blessed by The Lord, and hemmed in as a precious child of the household of God.

i don't make anything more of it than that.

i'm glad you're here.
love zone.
 
S

SantoSubito

Guest
#40
How did this become a catholic vs protestant thread?? wow!
It was kinda set up that way. The largest Church that baptizes infants is the RCC, and so far I haven't seen any Methodists, Orthodox, Anglicans, Lutherans, Presbyterians (some), or Reformed (some) show up here.