Cessationism and Continuationism
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K
There are a lot of variables that go in to a marriage, God cannot force a partner against their will. Many marriages have been healed with two willing partners, but God cannot force anyone to do what is right. They have to decide that
Can God heal? I believe He can. I also believe that we have heard so many years what God isn't doing that we don't have the faith to believe what He can do and has done. ( noticed I included myself) Jesus never said no to healing anyone, the only ones He could not heal are those who did not believe in Him. Many times it's hard for a sick person to pray for themselves. We have such a lack of faith in churches today, I believe we could see so much more if we could believe. Many, many people have been healed down through the years. Doctors cannot explain what happened to them. And there are times they even admit its a "miracle". There are different reasons why a person is not healed, but it's not because it's not God's will or that He is unable to heal today.
We're not talking about everything, we are talking about tongues. You've added healing. God can, Jesus never said no. I believe in healing, I know people who have been healed. There is no reason for the gift of tongues to cease. We are not perfect, not in ourselves, not in the church. The perfect is yet to come.
Can God heal? I believe He can. I also believe that we have heard so many years what God isn't doing that we don't have the faith to believe what He can do and has done. ( noticed I included myself) Jesus never said no to healing anyone, the only ones He could not heal are those who did not believe in Him. Many times it's hard for a sick person to pray for themselves. We have such a lack of faith in churches today, I believe we could see so much more if we could believe. Many, many people have been healed down through the years. Doctors cannot explain what happened to them. And there are times they even admit its a "miracle". There are different reasons why a person is not healed, but it's not because it's not God's will or that He is unable to heal today.
We're not talking about everything, we are talking about tongues. You've added healing. God can, Jesus never said no. I believe in healing, I know people who have been healed. There is no reason for the gift of tongues to cease. We are not perfect, not in ourselves, not in the church. The perfect is yet to come.
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Hi sister Kayla
The church is not set up right.
The church is the body of Christ with members and functions. I mean the local church, it is supposed to be as though the Lord Himself had taken up residence in each locality, people would soon get fixed up.
People often say Paul did not dwell on healing and miracles but in fact he established assemblies everywhere in which were prophets, healers and miracle workers, with the ministries of discernment and knowledge and wisdom all operating among the people ... what we have is poor old Pastor and one or two assistants and sister Biddy to arrange the flowers. That is why there is no diversity of gifts and functions.
The church needs a new reformation, not of doctrine but of ministry. The new wine is being poured into old wine skins.
The church is not set up right.
The church is the body of Christ with members and functions. I mean the local church, it is supposed to be as though the Lord Himself had taken up residence in each locality, people would soon get fixed up.
People often say Paul did not dwell on healing and miracles but in fact he established assemblies everywhere in which were prophets, healers and miracle workers, with the ministries of discernment and knowledge and wisdom all operating among the people ... what we have is poor old Pastor and one or two assistants and sister Biddy to arrange the flowers. That is why there is no diversity of gifts and functions.
The church needs a new reformation, not of doctrine but of ministry. The new wine is being poured into old wine skins.
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K
Exactly so, brother. As I was reading about the parts of the body, how each is as important as the other I thought, we sure don't function that was as a church. smh We have no harmony, we can't even agree which hymns to sing. I recall years ago we had a bad split in our home church. A small group of us were forced to leave and we began meeting in homes. We had no pastor. We would simply sing a few songs together, read the Word and pray. I have never attended such a church as that. Every week someone had a testimony of how God had moved in their lives, healings, marriages put back together, financial blessings. We grew encouraged by each testimony and we began to believe and see God move in our lives. It was a wonderful time. Sadly we got a church, another pastor that tore the people apart and left town. The people were never the same again.
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K
This happened only a few weeks ago, near Thanksgiving. My sister was up visiting my parents with my nephews. When we leave for any trip we always pray for the travelers safety. But as they were leaving this time, I felt the boys needed to be anointed with oil. I told my father and he brought his oil and we prayed over the boys before they left. Two days later my sister called and told me the youngest had been in an accident with his 3 wheeler. His young cousin had been driving too close, teasing him and scared him. He felt his only choice was to jump off the vehicle. He broke his collar bone, but came very close to losing his life. We thank God for His protection.
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Amen!
I anoint the fence posts and place Angels on them, I anoint all doorways and windows and place Angels on guard, I anoint many things and put them under the protection of God!
I had recently moved to the property I am at now, which some claimed many ages ago was native burial grounds and others just said it was haunted. One evening, just after i finished feeding my dogs, one of the dogs began choking and was making this sound I had never heard before. As I was walking towards her, it looked like something opened her jaws completely as wide as possible and she was gagging. It amazed me how her mouth was just being controlled and looked forced open against her will. She just was gagging and choking like she was not getting air to breath.
It hit me like a ton of bricks within my spirit that she was attempted at being Demon Possessed. Suddenly a Boldness rose up within me and I Rebuked that Demon and Commanded it to leave in the Name of Yeshua of Nazareth and kept Praying like a Warrior in Tongues. Suddenly, her mouth flew wide open again and it looked like she was spitting something out. She had just closed her mouth and finally looked at peace when this rushing wind went right past me, we are inside the house, and this wind just rushes past me.
The dog was watching and then looked behind me. When I turned to see, I saw a long darkish gray cloak slipping through my Closed Window and then saw a figure of a body exiting on the other side of the window. I ran to see where it went but it just disappeared. I went and got oil and began anointing everything and placing Angels for protection. Spent the next few days walking the perimeter of the property and anointing fence posts + placed Angels on them.
Oddly enough, when this Fire happened a month ago, I had Angel sightings everywhere. I most definitely believe in Anointing things/people with oil and placing Angels for protection.
I anoint the fence posts and place Angels on them, I anoint all doorways and windows and place Angels on guard, I anoint many things and put them under the protection of God!
I had recently moved to the property I am at now, which some claimed many ages ago was native burial grounds and others just said it was haunted. One evening, just after i finished feeding my dogs, one of the dogs began choking and was making this sound I had never heard before. As I was walking towards her, it looked like something opened her jaws completely as wide as possible and she was gagging. It amazed me how her mouth was just being controlled and looked forced open against her will. She just was gagging and choking like she was not getting air to breath.
It hit me like a ton of bricks within my spirit that she was attempted at being Demon Possessed. Suddenly a Boldness rose up within me and I Rebuked that Demon and Commanded it to leave in the Name of Yeshua of Nazareth and kept Praying like a Warrior in Tongues. Suddenly, her mouth flew wide open again and it looked like she was spitting something out. She had just closed her mouth and finally looked at peace when this rushing wind went right past me, we are inside the house, and this wind just rushes past me.
The dog was watching and then looked behind me. When I turned to see, I saw a long darkish gray cloak slipping through my Closed Window and then saw a figure of a body exiting on the other side of the window. I ran to see where it went but it just disappeared. I went and got oil and began anointing everything and placing Angels for protection. Spent the next few days walking the perimeter of the property and anointing fence posts + placed Angels on them.
Oddly enough, when this Fire happened a month ago, I had Angel sightings everywhere. I most definitely believe in Anointing things/people with oil and placing Angels for protection.
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Aerials1978
To begin, I believed God would save my marriage, and we still divorced. And when I say believed, I mean I fasted several days a week for months on end, begged and petitioned the Father in non-stop prayer. I’m sorry man, I feel you. If I had to do it all over again, I would fast more, pray more, believe more. It might very well end the same way. However, what else are we to do and to whom else are we to go? It was years ago, and I still often feel intense pain.
Onto the subject at hand. I haven’t dived into this debate for many years, if not decades, because I loathe to do so, and I will probably be angry at myself later for engaging. One reason is I can’t believe anyone would conclude that the gifts ceased at the end of the Apostolic age while reading through the text. It’s just not a natural reading. One must hear or read a teaching like that from John MacArthur to even begin considering such a thing.
Nothing I say should be construed as a smear toward John MacArthur. I have enormous respect for him and his scholarship—generally. Although, just to be transparent, I don’t like him. It’s just a personality thing.
Lest anyone consider what I am about to offer as an ad hominin, let me say that John MacArthur is human just like you and I. The late great Dr. Walter Martin spoke highly of John MacArthur, referring to him as a careful Greek scholar not given to error. Yet, he adamantly disagreed with John MacArthur regarding the perpetuity of the spiritual gifts, as does the historical church. Dr. Martin also pointed out the John Macarthur’s father was one of the original cessationism pioneers, which is a relatively recent movement by the way. So, for John MacArthur to give up his theology, he must give up his late father’s theology as well. Anyone that doesn’t think this may play into his positions is being naïve.
Aerials1978, you made a comment in a much earlier post that I could not let go, which is the real reason I took the time to wade into the fray. However, unless I missed it, no one challenged you on it. I don’t really want to search again for your exact quote, so if I get it materially wrong, please feel free to correct me. You said something to the effect of,
‘Paul never said anything regarding when the gifts began or when they would end.’
I hope I have your comment close enough to make my point.
Regarding the first part, why on earth would Paul discuss when the gifts began? The whole middle east knew when they began, as chronicled by Luke in the Second Chapter of Acts. (I miss that band. Yeah, I’m dating myself.) Everyone knew the gifts began on that particular Pentecost.
To the second part, Paul indeed said when the gifts would cease.
“Therefore you do not lack any spiritual gift as you eagerly wait for our Lord Jesus Christ to be revealed.”
I Corinthians 1:7
I would encourage you to look up the word “gift” in the Greek and you will find it is the same as used later on in the same book.
I’m not sure how Paul could have made this anymore clear. Did he need to say something like ‘…for our Lord and Christ to be revealed at the second coming and not the close of the canon.’ Anyone trying to make the case that “revealed” refers to the close of the canon is failing the straight face test. That would be silly.
Now, while I personally believe the canon closed with the Apostolic age, I see nothing that explicitly states that it did. However, I believe we can surmise this based on history, and all the authors of the New Testament were first-hand witnesses of the Ministry of Jesus, or acquaintances of them. Actually, I’m not sure whether Paul witnessed any of Jesus’ ministry, but clearly, Jesus appeared to him.
That Paul’s use of the word “perfect” later on refers to the close of the canon is rather weak. At the beginning of the letter, Paul ties the subject of gifts in with the coming of Jesus. It is unnatural and out of context to claim he then switched his reference to refer to the canon at the end of the letter.
Do I think anyone has to believe as continuationists do as a prerequisite for the Holy Spirit to distribute those gifts? The Holy Spirit is God. He can exercise those gifts through anyone He wants. He knows honest believers have been taught wrong things by other honest believers. I will say this, buying into the wrong teaching might leave an individual timid about speaking out, exercising supernatural faith, etc. The key word here is “gifts.” The Holy Spirit is a gift giver and longs to fulfill them in the Body of Christ. Cleary, there are abuses as described in the same epistle. However, I will not throw a gift worth more than gold out with the bathwater.
I think I’ve said my piece.
To begin, I believed God would save my marriage, and we still divorced. And when I say believed, I mean I fasted several days a week for months on end, begged and petitioned the Father in non-stop prayer. I’m sorry man, I feel you. If I had to do it all over again, I would fast more, pray more, believe more. It might very well end the same way. However, what else are we to do and to whom else are we to go? It was years ago, and I still often feel intense pain.
Onto the subject at hand. I haven’t dived into this debate for many years, if not decades, because I loathe to do so, and I will probably be angry at myself later for engaging. One reason is I can’t believe anyone would conclude that the gifts ceased at the end of the Apostolic age while reading through the text. It’s just not a natural reading. One must hear or read a teaching like that from John MacArthur to even begin considering such a thing.
Nothing I say should be construed as a smear toward John MacArthur. I have enormous respect for him and his scholarship—generally. Although, just to be transparent, I don’t like him. It’s just a personality thing.
Lest anyone consider what I am about to offer as an ad hominin, let me say that John MacArthur is human just like you and I. The late great Dr. Walter Martin spoke highly of John MacArthur, referring to him as a careful Greek scholar not given to error. Yet, he adamantly disagreed with John MacArthur regarding the perpetuity of the spiritual gifts, as does the historical church. Dr. Martin also pointed out the John Macarthur’s father was one of the original cessationism pioneers, which is a relatively recent movement by the way. So, for John MacArthur to give up his theology, he must give up his late father’s theology as well. Anyone that doesn’t think this may play into his positions is being naïve.
Aerials1978, you made a comment in a much earlier post that I could not let go, which is the real reason I took the time to wade into the fray. However, unless I missed it, no one challenged you on it. I don’t really want to search again for your exact quote, so if I get it materially wrong, please feel free to correct me. You said something to the effect of,
‘Paul never said anything regarding when the gifts began or when they would end.’
I hope I have your comment close enough to make my point.
Regarding the first part, why on earth would Paul discuss when the gifts began? The whole middle east knew when they began, as chronicled by Luke in the Second Chapter of Acts. (I miss that band. Yeah, I’m dating myself.) Everyone knew the gifts began on that particular Pentecost.
To the second part, Paul indeed said when the gifts would cease.
“Therefore you do not lack any spiritual gift as you eagerly wait for our Lord Jesus Christ to be revealed.”
I Corinthians 1:7
I would encourage you to look up the word “gift” in the Greek and you will find it is the same as used later on in the same book.
I’m not sure how Paul could have made this anymore clear. Did he need to say something like ‘…for our Lord and Christ to be revealed at the second coming and not the close of the canon.’ Anyone trying to make the case that “revealed” refers to the close of the canon is failing the straight face test. That would be silly.
Now, while I personally believe the canon closed with the Apostolic age, I see nothing that explicitly states that it did. However, I believe we can surmise this based on history, and all the authors of the New Testament were first-hand witnesses of the Ministry of Jesus, or acquaintances of them. Actually, I’m not sure whether Paul witnessed any of Jesus’ ministry, but clearly, Jesus appeared to him.
That Paul’s use of the word “perfect” later on refers to the close of the canon is rather weak. At the beginning of the letter, Paul ties the subject of gifts in with the coming of Jesus. It is unnatural and out of context to claim he then switched his reference to refer to the canon at the end of the letter.
Do I think anyone has to believe as continuationists do as a prerequisite for the Holy Spirit to distribute those gifts? The Holy Spirit is God. He can exercise those gifts through anyone He wants. He knows honest believers have been taught wrong things by other honest believers. I will say this, buying into the wrong teaching might leave an individual timid about speaking out, exercising supernatural faith, etc. The key word here is “gifts.” The Holy Spirit is a gift giver and longs to fulfill them in the Body of Christ. Cleary, there are abuses as described in the same epistle. However, I will not throw a gift worth more than gold out with the bathwater.
I think I’ve said my piece.
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S
I have prayed and fasted as well for another without the hoped for result....the pain was just about unbearable....so I understand...but as Kayla said, we cannot control the will of another and frankly I was not living for God when I became involved so basically I ended it and then just wanted the pain to end.
I actually prayed for weeks for God to take away that pain...and you know He did! only because He is merciful....I just have to remember how that felt though, and it was lesson I brought on myself but the good is that I now stand so much firmer...this was at least 25 years ago, but I remember it well
amen
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Praise the Lord, God is so good.
More than 40 years ago I had to end a relationship, we had just got engaged and had picked out the ring in the shop window that I would buy ... oh boy what it is to be "in love" eh.
But I could not sleep that night, I tossed and turned and dreamed weird dreams, at 3. 00 God told me to go visit her, she lived a mile or so away. It was snowing hard. As I turned into her street, there it was, the land Rover that belonged to her ex. It hit me like a ton of bricks.
I walked home in the snow thinking "Lord I ought to be devastated, totally crushed by this, yet all I feel is peace" .... "God how come I have such beautiful peace?"
I discerned every word God said to me
"God knew you could not bear this pain, it is too much for you, so Jesus took it up to the cross with Him and bore it for you ... He has done it, but you can choose to bear it and it will overwhelm you"
This has been a master key for many hurts and intractable problems I have had as a christian down through the years. I also see why many live with pain and sorrow which they do not allow Jesus to bear for them.
More than 40 years ago I had to end a relationship, we had just got engaged and had picked out the ring in the shop window that I would buy ... oh boy what it is to be "in love" eh.
But I could not sleep that night, I tossed and turned and dreamed weird dreams, at 3. 00 God told me to go visit her, she lived a mile or so away. It was snowing hard. As I turned into her street, there it was, the land Rover that belonged to her ex. It hit me like a ton of bricks.
I walked home in the snow thinking "Lord I ought to be devastated, totally crushed by this, yet all I feel is peace" .... "God how come I have such beautiful peace?"
I discerned every word God said to me
"God knew you could not bear this pain, it is too much for you, so Jesus took it up to the cross with Him and bore it for you ... He has done it, but you can choose to bear it and it will overwhelm you"
This has been a master key for many hurts and intractable problems I have had as a christian down through the years. I also see why many live with pain and sorrow which they do not allow Jesus to bear for them.
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