Interpreting the Parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus: It's Really Good News!

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Aug 3, 2019
3,744
507
113
oh so when God creates a different body, and puts a spirit which has no personal identifying aspect into that body, by your logic God would be creating an entirely different soul
Does the Potter have trillions of different chemically fingerprinted types of clay with which to make each of us, so that He can merely pull down off the shelf whatever type clay He used the first time to make us the second time? (Hint: it's called "DNA") In any case, your silly line of reasoning does nothing to overthrow the fact of Genesis 2:7 KJV which says the Soul comes into existence only as a consequence of the union of the Body and the Breath of Life.
so you are saying there is no resurrection, God makes new creatures and artificially inserts fake lying memories into them, deceiving them into believing they have personhood?
I'll have an answer waiting for you when you come up in your resurrection.
you cease to exist and sometime later God creates a new being, and tricks that illusory person into thinking they are you. that's your hope? that's what you teach people?
What are you talking about? In the resurrection, people will know who they are, what's happened to them, and the fate that awaits them. Where do ya get the idea God uses "trickery"?
 

Webers.Home

Well-known member
May 28, 2018
5,817
1,073
113
Oregon
cfbac.org
.
The "suffering" spoken of in Jude 7 is a participle indicating that the
Sodomites were not only incinerated by fire, but also currently incarcerated
in fire; viz: there is n afterlife confinement somewhere consisting of fiery
materials that are here to stay. (cf. Isa 66:22-24)
_
 
Aug 3, 2019
3,744
507
113
It has always been Good News if you felt like Lazarus and right away were very glad how poor Lazarus whom nobody cared for and had his sores licked by dogs in this miserably life and dies gets comforted in the heart of Abraham he longed for. Not so good news for those that are more like the Rich Man, how he wishes that Lazarus who ate his crumbs would dip his finger in some water to cool his tongue. He asks to warn their descendants and family, but they have Moses and the Prophets who told them everything also, if they won't hear them, they certainly wouldn't hear one even if he were to rise from the dead.
The REAL GOOD NEWS is that the passage has nothing to do with revelation about what happens when we die or is any evidence at all the wicked are tormented eternally....because it's a parable...which means it must be interpreted to get the true meaning.
 
Aug 3, 2019
3,744
507
113
.
The "suffering" spoken of in Jude 7 is a participle indicating that the
Sodomites were not only incinerated by fire, but also currently incarcerated
in fire; viz: there is, somewhere, an impoundment containing fiery materials
that are here to stay. (cf. Isa 66:22-24)
_
Not so, friend. Peter plainly tells you in 2 Peter 2:9 KJV the punishment of the wicked by fire is still future, and they are "reserved" in the grave "unto" the day of judgment "to be" punished.
 
Jan 12, 2022
798
178
43
The REAL GOOD NEWS is that the passage has nothing to do with revelation about what happens when we die or is any evidence at all the wicked are tormented eternally....because it's a parable...which means it must be interpreted to get the true meaning.
If they won't hear what the Prophets and Moses said about hell they won't hear the parable even if one that rose from the dead told it to them, but they'll find out how wrong they were one day while we're still praising Jesus the comforter of Lazarus and the father of Abraham.
 
Dec 29, 2021
1,317
314
83
I bolded something from your post above “and they [sinners] will live eternally…” but the Bible says only those who believe in Christ will have eternal life. So what do you mean?
In the Book of Revelation:
Revelation 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Now, this speaks about those who take the Mark of the Beast, their punishment is forever and ever and their smoke and torment is forever and ever.

Forever and ever indicates it Never Ends!

Those who take the Mark end up in the Lake of Fire just like Satan, Demons, Beast, False Prophet, Grave and Death, plus Sinners. If one burns and is tormented forever and ever, then they all theoretically will burn forever and ever.
 
Dec 29, 2021
1,317
314
83
The preacher in the video says that this "parable" is taking place at the end, when judgement has taken place... but that doesn't sound right. Because if that was the case, when the rich man wanted to warn his brothers about his torment, Abraham would have just been like "it's over dude, we at judgement now", but instead he says they have the law and the prophets, let them hear them... so, this can't be after judgement is taken place already- because people still need the law and the prophets to avoid this place of torment.

I do agree with the "certain man" point, about language- so, it might be a parable, but even then, like I said before- parables use actual things that you understand and liken them to similar things that you don't understand.

If you think of it on terms that the Rich man was the Jews and Lazarus was the Gentiles, and roles are being reversed. then God is using the Rich man as a Warning for the Jews to pay attention.

First of all, you [[must be familiar with Jews, but even more familiar with Ancient Hebrews]]. THE JEWS HAVE NEVER BELIEVED IN A DEVIL'S HELL NOR DID YESHUA PREACH ON A DEVIL'S HELL!

Dear Rabbi,
Do Jews believe in Hell? I am not planning any trips there or anything, but I have heard conflicting reports about its existence.

Answer:
We do believe in a type of Hell, but not the one found in cartoons and joke books. Hell is not a punishment in the conventional sense; it is, in fact, the expression of a great kindness.
The Jewish mystics described a spiritual place called “Gehinnom.” This is usually translated as “Hell,” but a better translation would be “the Supernal Washing Machine.” Because that’s exactly how it works. The way our soul is cleansed in Gehinnom is similar to the way our clothes are cleansed in a washing machine.
 
Dec 29, 2021
1,317
314
83
No. That is a complete misunderstanding.

The historical narrative -- not parable -- is about Sheol/Hades, the region where the souls and spirits went after death (and now only the unsaved go there). The words "hell" and "the grave" should never have been used for Sheol/Hades by the KJV translators. And it is not about the Jews losing their position, but about the selfish and covetous Pharisees who loved their wealth and despised the poor, and did not understand that they were on the brink of eternal damnation.

What most people fail to see is that there is a break between Christ's teaching on divorce to the Pharisees, and His teaching on the afterlife (also to the Pharisees). Luke chapter 16 is divided into three sections:

Verses 1-13 -- Faithful Stewardship (applicable to all Christians today)

Verses 14- 18: Multiple rebukes against the Pharisees who mocked Christ

Verses 19-31: Teaching on the afterlife. It is quite significant that all through the OT, Sheol is mentioned as the place of departed souls without much clarification. But here Christ expands the meaning of Sheol/Hades to explain that (a) the righteous dead are separated from the unrighteous dead by a great chasm (which cannot be crossed over) , (b) there is already torment for the unrighteous in Hades, and (c) the region of the righteous is metaphorically called "Abraham's bosom" (since Abraham is the example of those to whom righteousness was imputed because of their faith). So all the OT saints since Abel were also present there (see Hebrews 11).

And while the body of Christ lay in the tomb, His soul and spirit went to Sheol/Hades to preach to "the spirits in prison" (since Sheol/Hades was virtually a prison for the righteous, but in reality a prison for the unrighteous). But David (about 1,000 years before the crucifixion) spoke these words of Christ by divine inspiration in Psalm 16:10: For thou wilt not leave my soul in SHEOL; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

Therefore Peter quoted this on the day of Pentecost to confirm that Christ remained in Sheol/Hades for only three days and three nights, and was then resurrected (Acts 2:27,31): Because thou wilt not leave my soul in HADES, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption... He [David] seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in HADES, neither his flesh did see corruption. So when Christ rose from the dead He took all the OT saints (including Lazarus) to Paradise (Eph 4:8-10).
Jesus would not teach on a subject the Jews have never believed in NOR DID YAHWEH CLAIM EXISTED IN THE OLD TESTAMENT!

Dear Rabbi,
Do Jews believe in Hell? I am not planning any trips there or anything, but I have heard conflicting reports about its existence.

Answer:
We do believe in a type of Hell, but not the one found in cartoons and joke books. Hell is not a punishment in the conventional sense; it is, in fact, the expression of a great kindness.
The Jewish mystics described a spiritual place called “Gehinnom.” This is usually translated as “Hell,” but a better translation would be “the Supernal Washing Machine.” Because that’s exactly how it works. The way our soul is cleansed in Gehinnom is similar to the way our clothes are cleansed in a washing machine.
 
Dec 29, 2021
1,317
314
83
It's why people using Latin Vulgate related translations like KJV and others think that a physical Devil's Hell Existed. Translations are worthless and why the Tanakh is what should be read and NOTHING ELSE concerning the O.T.

What we read in O.T. should be connected in the New Testament. One Confirms the Other!

Read the Truth from the Tanakh and the New Testament makes better sense!
 

Webers.Home

Well-known member
May 28, 2018
5,817
1,073
113
Oregon
cfbac.org
.
Not so, friend. Peter plainly tells you in 2 Peter 2:9 KJV the punishment of
the wicked by fire is still future, and they are "reserved" in the grave "unto"
the day of judgment "to be" punished.

I have yet to encounter someone who is out on bail awaiting their day in
court at the great white throne event depicted at Rev 20:11-15. In other
words: the lost are being held without relief in a dry fire while awaiting their
sentencing to a liquid fire.

Surely by now you must be aware that there are two hells: one that's
temporary and another that's permanent. Peter isn't talking about the
temporary hell; he's talking about the main event. I thought everybody
knew that.
_
 
Dec 29, 2021
1,317
314
83
For THOSE who thought Ancient Hebrews and Jews believed in a Devil's Hell reveals your lack of Hebrew knowledge.
Show's you really do not know who the Jews were!

It's like English claiming Elohim = many, but to the Ancient Hebrew/Jew it means ONE.

Your words do not mean squat until they align with how the Hebrew words mean to them [the Ancient Hebrews]!
 

BroTan

Active member
Sep 16, 2021
898
161
43
The popular yet erroneous teaching about Rich Man and Lazarus has succeeded to both strike fear in the hearts of Christians and drive countless others to atheism, because those who refuse to recognize this passage in Luke 16 as the parable that it is use it to advance the false idea of Eternal Torment - a doctrine of devils - because they know then can't substantiate a doctrine on an uninterpreted parable. Here's the other side of the story:



Looks like the Lake of Fire according to the book. Let's go to Isaiah 33:14 The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?

What does everlasting mean? Read the whole chapter in Isaiah 33 and it will date this everlasting burning. In Mark, here is a unclean spirit (evil angel) asking Jesus not to torment him. Remember angels are spirits and can be also tormented.

Mark 5:7 And cried with a loud voice, and said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of the most high God? I adjure thee by God, that thou torment me not. This is future in Luke. Why? We have not had the first resurrection yet and Abraham is still in the grave.

Let's revisited Luke 16: 22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; 23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. 25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. 26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. 27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: 28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. 29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. 30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. 31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Who rose from the grave? Jesus, and they did not believe his report. This guy doesn't even know he has been judged. If he looks around he would probably find his family burning along with him.

Look at this here in Matthew, so be very careful how you treat other people. Jesus says in In Matthew 25:38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? 39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? 40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. 41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 For I was an hungered, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: 43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. 44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungered, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? 45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. 46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Notice verse 41 Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: The Lake Of fire was made for the devil and his angels. Now man has become a candidate by not obeying the Royal Law.
 
Dec 29, 2021
1,317
314
83
Looks like the Lake of Fire according to the book. Let's go to Isaiah 33:14 The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?

What does everlasting mean? Read the whole chapter in Isaiah 33 and it will date this everlasting burning. In Mark, here is a unclean spirit (evil angel) asking Jesus not to torment him. Remember angels are spirits and can be also tormented.

Mark 5:7 And cried with a loud voice, and said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of the most high God? I adjure thee by God, that thou torment me not. This is future in Luke. Why? We have not had the first resurrection yet and Abraham is still in the grave.

Let's revisited Luke 16: 22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; 23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. 25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. 26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. 27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: 28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. 29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. 30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. 31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Who rose from the grave? Jesus, and they did not believe his report. This guy doesn't even know he has been judged. If he looks around he would probably find his family burning along with him.

Look at this here in Matthew, so be very careful how you treat other people. Jesus says in In Matthew 25:38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? 39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? 40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. 41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 For I was an hungered, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: 43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. 44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungered, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? 45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. 46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Notice verse 41 Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: The Lake Of fire was made for the devil and his angels. Now man has become a candidate by not obeying the Royal Law.
First of all, Isaiah 33:14 does not say what the kjv claims:

Tanakh:
Isaiah 33:
14 Sinners in Zion were afraid; trembling seized the flatterers, 'Who will stand up for us against a consuming fire? Who will stand up for us against the everlasting fires?'


Your Version is not even close:
Isaiah 33:14 The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?
 
Mar 4, 2020
8,614
3,691
113
In the Book of Revelation:
Revelation 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Now, this speaks about those who take the Mark of the Beast, their punishment is forever and ever and their smoke and torment is forever and ever.

Forever and ever indicates it Never Ends!

Those who take the Mark end up in the Lake of Fire just like Satan, Demons, Beast, False Prophet, Grave and Death, plus Sinners. If one burns and is tormented forever and ever, then they all theoretically will burn forever and ever.
“The smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever…”

If you wanted to be strict about reading that, it says only the smoke ascends up for ever.

“They have no rest day or night…”

How many days and nights? To be strict about it, “for ever” isn’t used to describe an endless cycle of days and nights.
 
Dec 29, 2021
1,317
314
83
But just as the Ancient Hebrews did not believe in a Devil's Hell, they believed in the Lake of Fire:

Dan 12:2 ''And many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt.

Isaiah 30:33 For Topheth has long been ready, Indeed, it has been prepared for the king. He has made it deep and large, A pyre of fire with plenty of wood; The breath of the LORD, like a torrent of brimstone, sets it afire.

Regarding the Hebrew word Tophet or Topheth; it is the equivalent of the Greek word Gehenna which itself is taken from a Hebrew word. Gehenna and Tophet are illustrations of the lake of fire.
 
Dec 29, 2021
1,317
314
83
“The smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever…”

If you wanted to be strict about reading that, it says only the smoke ascends up for ever.

“They have no rest day or night…”

How many days and nights? To be strict about it, “for ever” isn’t used to describe an endless cycle of days and nights.
Even the Tanakh claims it will be Eternal Damnation.

Daniel 12:
2 And many who sleep in the dust of the earth will awaken-these for eternal life, and those for disgrace, for eternal abhorrence.
 
Jul 23, 2018
12,199
2,775
113
In order for a "parable" to work, the "comparable" thing that is being likened to the veiled message has to be something that is understood, right? Like when Jesus talks in parables about "gardens" and "vinyards" they are able to be understood, because vinyards and gardens are real things that people understand. So... even if this is a parable, why would that mean that this description of Hades is inaccurate?
BINGO
 
O

Oblio

Guest
I think it's obvious that this parable was given to make sure that we didn't run out of things to argue about! 😡
 
Mar 4, 2020
8,614
3,691
113
Even the Tanakh claims it will be Eternal Damnation.

Daniel 12:
2 And many who sleep in the dust of the earth will awaken-these for eternal life, and those for disgrace, for eternal abhorrence.
Eternal damnation means judgement. An eternal damnation is the second death, like the Bible says, because death is eternal.

To be fair, it doesn't say that the ones who sleep in the dust and wake up will be the ones feeling eternal abhorrence. Someone will be feeling abhorrence, but it won't be those who awake to the resurrection of damnation.

The ones who are feeling abhorrence are the righteous who will see the damnation of the wicked. This occurs after the GWTJ in the New Heavens and New Earth.

Consider Isaiah 66:22-24

22For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before Me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.
23And it shall come to pass,
That from one new moon to another,
And from one sabbath to another,
Shall all flesh come to worship before Me,
Saith the LORD.
24And they shall go forth, and look
Upon the carcasses of the men that have rebelled against Me;
For their worm shall not die,
Neither shall their fire be quenched;
And they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.
 

CS1

Well-known member
May 23, 2012
13,058
4,341
113
It was a real place that "suffered the vengeance of eternal fire", but:

Is Sodom now still burning with "eternal fire" while it's sitting under the Dead Sea?

Does "eternal redemption" mean we get to watch Jesus be nailed to a Cross to redeem us and redeem us for all eternity in heaven?

Does "eternal judgment" mean we get to hear God say, "Order in the court, order in the court" over and over because the judgment never ends?

Eternal fire, redemption, and judgment refer not to the process, but the results of these three.
the context of Sodom is they were judged and the physical context of that city is no more Sodom is not Hell all those nations have been judged by God and will be judged by God. The people of sodom the bible doesn't tell us where they are so we are to be silent on those people BUT NOW Jesus said a hell is a place of internal judgment, so what you think about Sodom is irrelevant Because Jesus said hell is a place of eternal torment. You are taking what is descriptive and trying to make it authoritative over what Jesus said about hell. "Is Sodom now still burning with "eternal fire"

Ridiculous question. the city is destroyed as God said it would be in fact the ruins are there today by the Dead Sea. Yet No man has seen hell but it is a real place BECAUSE JESUS SAID IT IS.

Luke 10:11–12) Jesus says: And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust from your feet. Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgement, than for that city.


What is more tolerable than being destroyed by fire? Hmm, Maybe Jesus was expressing how serious this place of eternal torment is far worst than what happened to Sodom and Gomorrah. I take the words of Jesus over one's opinion of Sodom's destruction.