Galatians Discussion

[justbyfaith]

You cannot be a christian if you do not have the Spirit (Romans8:9)
And no christian without deviation follows after the Spirit. As those who are humble and honest will admit. I think if some spend too much time considering theology and the letter they could end up only with a head theology devoid of reality in any believers life.

I believe that those who believe that no Christian without deviation follows after the Spirit, will follow the Spirit with deviation.

But if you can rid yourself of the mindset that sin is inevitable, sin does not have to be inevitable...you can walk consistently not after the flesh but after the Spirit (Romans 8:3-4) for an extended period of time; even for the rest of your life (Luke 1:74-75).

Because we are not obligated to obey the flesh (Romans 8:12 (kjv, NLT)).

 

[justbyfaith]

The question is, Do you have the same attitude that Paul exhibited in Romans 7:24, that you are discontented with a lifestyle of sinning?

If you are, then the following verses (in the kjv) might strike you as being good news...

1 Thessalonians 5:23-24, Hebrews 10:14, 1 John 3:9;

1 John 3:7, 1 John 3:3, 1 John 2:6;

Jude 1:24, 2 Peter 1:10, 1 John 2:10;

Romans 6:6, Colossians 2:11;

Romans 8:12 (kjv, NLT);

1 John 1:5 and 1 John 3:5 w/ 1 John 5:20, 1 Corinthians 1:2, 1 Corinthians 1:30, 1 Peter 5:14.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

There is only one way you can stop a sincere believer returning to a righteousness of obeying the law once saved, and thereby placing them back under the power of sin. Tell them Jesus died for all their sins, past, present and future. Then watch the result of them having that knowledge

Returning to the law once saved ? Who would return to Moses instructions for unspiritual sinners when they have the word of God to believe and follow ?

Jesus dying for our sins yeah that’s definately essential knowledge just as the atonement sacrifice was important knowledge under the law. Understanding the atonement is important

 

[Pilgrimshope]

I have found over the years that it is more effective to pray for God to change another person as He chooses, than to tell the person they need to change.

asking God to help us change is pretty powerful too

 

[justbyfaith]

Returning to the law once saved ? Who would return to Moses instructions for unspiritual sinners when they have the word of God to believe and follow ?

Jesus dying for our sins yeah that’s definitely <fify> essential knowledge just as the atonement sacrifice was important knowledge under the law. Understanding the atonement is important

In being saved, the law is written on the heart and in the mind (Hebrews 8:8-10, Hebrews 10:16, Romans 8:7, Romans 8:4, 1 John 5:3, 2 John 1:6, Romans 13:8-10; Romans 5:5; 1 John 2:3-6).

Therefore the believer is not under the law (Romans 6:14), is dead to the law (Romans 7:4, Galatians 2:19), and is delivered from the law (Romans 7:6) as concerning condemnation rather than as concerning obedience.

 

[Onesimus63]

Returning to the law once saved ? Who would return to Moses instructions for unspiritual sinners when they have the word of God to believe and follow ?

Jesus dying for our sins yeah that’s definately essential knowledge just as the atonement sacrifice was important knowledge under the law. Understanding the atonement is important

OK, you wanted me to explain how sin was able to use the ten commandments to arouse all manner of sin/concupiscence in Saul. We really do need to consider scripture, not just quote it. Imagine a teenager who has made a commitment to God. They believe obeying the letter of the law is everything. Eternal life hinges on it. Before them is the Ten Commandments. They know God can forgive sin, however, that does not mean you can break the law does it, especially the big ten. The teenager understands what the law demands, they are not in ignorance of it. Before them is ‘’Thou shalt not covet’’ This commandment must be obeyed or they are condemned, for they would be failing to obey the law wouldn’t they. Now picture a teenager faced with this situation. They must not have or dwell on impure thoughts/lust. The commandment states: ‘’Thou shalt not’’ So what happens when an impure thought comes to them? They would be desperate to get rid of it, eternity hinges on obeying the letter. You see, you cannot start excusing sin can you, by saying it is only what goes on, on the inside of man, it is not so important. It is, breaking the ten commandments. Now in the real world, a young teenager would inevitably be petrified of impure thoughts, if(if) they were as ardent as was Saul concerning his religion, he dedicated his life to it. Now what do you think would happen if someone was determined never to covet for if they do they were in danger of hellfire. THEY MUST NOT COVET! If you understand human nature you will know the result:

What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. Romans7:7&8

Hence, sin used what was good and holy and righteous to arouse all manner of sin in Saul through the commandment. Before he made that commitment he felt alive for their was no condemnation then, for he was not obligated to obey the letter of the law to inherit eternal life. And hence, the power of sin is the laws ability to condemn.



Of course, Saul being a Pharisee did not understand the truth, the bottom line was not obeying the letter of the law. David understood the truth:

I trust in your unfailing love forever and ever.

For Daavid knew, no one was truly righteous before God



TBC

 

[Onesimus63]

Returning to the law once saved ? Who would return to Moses instructions for unspiritual sinners when they have the word of God to believe and follow ?

Jesus dying for our sins yeah that’s definately essential knowledge just as the atonement sacrifice was important knowledge under the law. Understanding the atonement is important

Now lets fast forward to the present.



I wrote a post that stated

‘’Its good you acknowledge we cannot live a sinless life, not everyone seems to acknowledge that’’



This was the response to it:

Rom 8:12 (kjv), Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.

Rom 8:12 (NLT), Therefore, dear brothers and sisters, you have no obligation to do what your sinful nature urges you to do.

Rom 8:4, That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

1Jo 3:5, And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
1Jo 3:6, Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
1Jo 3:7, Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
1Jo 3:8, He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
1Jo 3:9, Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.



So, a new Christian reads the above.

If they commit sin they are of the devil.

If we abide in Christ we sinneth not

If you are born of God you do not commit sin, for you cannot sin because you are born of God.

No other explanation was given, no exegesis, just the plain statements.

So what does the new convert do? Well the law is in their heart, so they understand what coveting entails. So if they have, or dwell on any impure thought they cannot have been born again, for they are breaking the law, and one of the ten commandments. They are a sincere convert, they know they cannot excuse sin, or claim it is a minor sin that only goes on, on the inside, sin is sin. So what will happen to them when impure thoughts come, they don’t want to go to hell, they want to be a Christian for they have been born again They must not covet. They could even take the view, if they do sin it shows they are not following after the Holy Spirit and that is why they have sinfull thoughts. Whilst others claim to follow the Holy Spirit every moment of their lives and that is why they do not sin. So the new convert then feels pretty worthless, why can they not live as others claim to. Being a trusting soul they never dream they are not being told the truth. Whichever way you look at it, they will end up as Saul the Pharisee ended up in romans ch7. Christian counsellors have testified to me as to this being the case with countless people who have come to them for help. They never had a chance to live under a righteousness of faith in Christ, only of one of perfect obedience to the law. Actually, this is an sda message. ‘’You are not under the law, therefore you are not condemned by the law as long as you do not break it

And why does this happen? Because as in Jesus day people preach a message they do not even try to live up to in their own lives, and they use the letter of scripture to preach their message. And that is just what the Pharisees did in Jesus day. Jesus reserved his harshest words for these people. But, they cared more about trying to impress others, than they cared about trying to please God.

 

[Blik]

If we are perfect, or can be as you understand that to mean concerning what Christ taught, do you even try and obey all of Christ's commands? Personally I think it is best to be humbly honest about ourselves, otherwise, we may hurt other christians faith, those who know they are far from perfect

This thought process is not remotely what Christ is telling us to have.. Christ says to follow him, and Christ follows the Father. There is nothing about this thought process suggested here about how he can't do it (both he and God knows that) and poor me.

He is taking lessons from his God for living in the kingdom of heaven for goodness sakes. If it was lessons in tennis, he wouldn't moan and groan to his instructor about how he can't do it, he would try. This is lessons in eternal life, much more important. We are humble to listen, not humble to groan "I can't do it, don't make me try".

He is to be a Christian, with the power and glory of his God in heaven behind him, not a groveling ineffectual worm. God will pick him up when he falls, he is only asked to try his best, to repent.

 

[Onesimus63]

This thought process is not remotely what Christ is telling us to have.. Christ says to follow him, and Christ follows the Father. There is nothing about this thought process suggested here about how he can't do it (both he and God knows that) and poor me.

He is taking lessons from his God for living in the kingdom of heaven for goodness sakes. If it was lessons in tennis, he wouldn't moan and groan to his instructor about how he can't do it, he would try. This is lessons in eternal life, much more important. We are humble to listen, not humble to groan "I can't do it, don't make me try".

He is to be a Christian, with the power and glory of his God in heaven behind him, not a groveling ineffectual worm. God will pick him up when he falls, he is only asked to try his best, to repent.

As you believe Jesus words, I am sure you would believe the following:
I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. John16:12&13

Now I will just make a general comment. According to Jesus, he was limited as to what He could teach His disciples, for they could not yet bear what he wanted to tell them. But when the Spirit of truth came, he would lead them into all truth. The Apostles had the Spirit, and so taught others with the Spirit also, what Christ, by His own words was unable to teach people when he walked this earth. Many people, like to just stick with what Jesus taught in the Gospels, and even question what the Apostles taught. But what is written in the Gospels can be understood without the indwelling Holy Spirit, what folllows cannot. And that simple truth is based on Jesus own words

 

[Onesimus63]

This thought process is not remotely what Christ is telling us to have.. Christ says to follow him, and Christ follows the Father. There is nothing about this thought process suggested here about how he can't do it (both he and God knows that) and poor me.

He is taking lessons from his God for living in the kingdom of heaven for goodness sakes. If it was lessons in tennis, he wouldn't moan and groan to his instructor about how he can't do it, he would try. This is lessons in eternal life, much more important. We are humble to listen, not humble to groan "I can't do it, don't make me try".

He is to be a Christian, with the power and glory of his God in heaven behind him, not a groveling ineffectual worm. God will pick him up when he falls, he is only asked to try his best, to repent.

If you want to live a Godly life, you need to understand the expanded message written by the Apostles of how to do so

 

[Blik]

In Galatians 5:22-23, we find that if we bear the fruit of the Spirit, there is no law that will condemn us in our behaviour. That is, in bearing the fruit of the Spirit, we become law-abiding citizens of the kingdom of heaven (Ezekiel 36:25-27).

This is a righteousness apart from the law that is nevertheless attested to by the law and the prophets (Romans 3:21) that it is righteousness indeed. We find that the law testifies that the righteousness which is of God by faith is, in fact, righteousness.

Because if we walk, not after the flesh, but after the Spirit, the righteousness of the law will be fulfilled in us (Romans 8:4).

This is not accomplished by attempting to obey a set of do's and don'ts...rather, it is accomplished when we believe in Jesus and receive the Spirit through faith in Jesus (Galatians 3:14). Then, as we walk according to the Spirit (Romans 8:4) and the fruit of the Spirit (Galatians 5:22-23), the righteousness of the law is fulfilled in us (Romans 8:4); there is no law that will condemn us in our behaviour (Galatians 5:22-23) and therefore we become law-abiding citizens of the kingdom (Ezekiel 36:25-27).

It is possible to walk in righteousness and holiness for an extended period of time; even for the rest of our lives (Luke 1:74-75).

For we are not obligated to obey the flesh (Romans 8:12 (kjv, NLT)).

Therefore, in consistently walking not after the flesh but after the Spirit, the righteousness of the law is consistently fulfilled in us (Romans 8:4); that is, we are able to walk in freedom and victory over sinful behaviour patterns.

We can even do this consistently for the rest of our lives (Luke 1:74-75).

For Jesus has condemned sin in the flesh (Romans 8:3); and therefore if we do not walk according to the flesh we will be walking in freedom and victory over sin.

If someone doesn't have the Spirit through faith in Christ (Galatians 3:14), then they will find that sin is in fact inevitable for them; that they will sin again and there is no way of getting around that.

But for those who do have the Spirit by faith (again, Galatians 3:14), we can walk according to the fruit of the Spirit against which there is no law (Galatians 5:22-23); we can walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit and the righteousness of the law will be fulfilled in us (Romans 8:4); that is, we will walk in freedom and victory over sin.

Therefore the doctrine of the inevitability of sin, for the believer, is a false doctrine and heresy.

So what is the law of the spirit and the law of a certain set of rules that you speak against? Let's take murder as an example. It is a certain set of rules, is this rule to be applied or not? I think it is very evident this rule should be applied. Jesus said it did. Jesus said his Father gave us this rule and he did not change or take away anything the Father said.

However, Christ added an entire new dimension to it as Christ put it in our hearts. It became a law not to harm another in any way. Christ goes on to explain the law regarding adultery, oaths, divorce, and an eye for and eye.

 

[Blik]

If you want to live a Godly life, you need to understand the expanded message written by the Apostles of how to do so

Another way of saying "want to live a Godly life", or saying it as scripture does is saying repent. Scripture does not qualify it in any way as you are adding a qualification to it. If you think so, please give scripture backup to your assertion.

 

[Onesimus63]

Another way of saying "want to live a Godly life", or saying it as scripture does is saying repent. Scripture does not qualify it in any way as you are adding a qualification to it. If you think so, please give scripture backup to your assertion.

Im speaking of after you have repented, and how to live your life as a christian

 

[Onesimus63]

It seems to me you talk out of both sides of your mouth, but when it comes down to the bottom line you believe in doing your best to live for Christ, and the bottom line is what counts.

Well at least we agree on one thing

 

[Grandpa]

OK, you wanted me to explain how sin was able to use the ten commandments to arouse all manner of sin/concupiscence in Saul. We really do need to consider scripture, not just quote it. Imagine a teenager who has made a commitment to God. They believe obeying the letter of the law is everything. Eternal life hinges on it. Before them is the Ten Commandments. They know God can forgive sin, however, that does not mean you can break the law does it, especially the big ten. The teenager understands what the law demands, they are not in ignorance of it. Before them is ‘’Thou shalt not covet’’ This commandment must be obeyed or they are condemned, for they would be failing to obey the law wouldn’t they. Now picture a teenager faced with this situation. They must not have or dwell on impure thoughts/lust. The commandment states: ‘’Thou shalt not’’ So what happens when an impure thought comes to them? They would be desperate to get rid of it, eternity hinges on obeying the letter. You see, you cannot start excusing sin can you, by saying it is only what goes on, on the inside of man, it is not so important. It is, breaking the ten commandments. Now in the real world, a young teenager would inevitably be petrified of impure thoughts, if(if) they were as ardent as was Saul concerning his religion, he dedicated his life to it. Now what do you think would happen if someone was determined never to covet for if they do they were in danger of hellfire. THEY MUST NOT COVET! If you understand human nature you will know the result:

What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. Romans7:7&8

Hence, sin used what was good and holy and righteous to arouse all manner of sin in Saul through the commandment. Before he made that commitment he felt alive for their was no condemnation then, for he was not obligated to obey the letter of the law to inherit eternal life. And hence, the power of sin is the laws ability to condemn.



Of course, Saul being a Pharisee did not understand the truth, the bottom line was not obeying the letter of the law. David understood the truth:

I trust in your unfailing love forever and ever.

For Daavid knew, no one was truly righteous before God



TBC

Its much more simple than all that.

The Law tells you to not do what your nature Naturally will do. (Lust of the eyes, Lust of the flesh, and Pride of life). So while you are focused on the Do NOT your nature is still doing what it naturally has always done. And the Do NOTS condemn this, and you.


But if you come to Christ and receive Rest, you are delivered from this circular condemnation. When you come to Christ you receive Righteousness as His Gift. You receive Salvation as His Gift.

Your only job, as a Christian, after that is to continue to Abide in Christ. Abide in the Righteousness that He has given you as His Gift. Abide in the Salvation and Blessing of Christ.


If you decide to look back to the Law, because of your "superior" knowledge of scripture, it will condemn you just like it always has. There is only One Way out of this condemnation.

Romans 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

 

[Onesimus63]

Its much more simple than all that.

The Law tells you to not do what your nature Naturally will do. (Lust of the eyes, Lust of the flesh, and Pride of life). So while you are focused on the Do NOT your nature is still doing what it naturally has always done. And the Do NOTS condemn this, and you.

If I understand you correctly I could not really agree on this point. Saul's knowledge of the law did not mean he simply kept on doing what he had always done. Sin grew in him. Through his knowledge of the commandment all manner of concupiscence was aroused in him. So he had not previously been in that state, or certainly not to that extent

 

[Grandpa]

Another way of saying "want to live a Godly life", or saying it as scripture does is saying repent. Scripture does not qualify it in any way as you are adding a qualification to it. If you think so, please give scripture backup to your assertion.

John 15:4-5
4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.


"Repent" is merely turning away from your understanding of the Law and turning back to Christ. Abide in Him and not your strength and knowledge.

Proverbs 3:5 Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.

 

[Grandpa]

If I understand you correctly I could not really agree on this point. Saul's knowledge of the law did not mean he simply kept on doing what he had always done. Sin magnified in him. Through his knowledge of the commandment all manner of concupiscence was aroused in him. So obviously had not previously been in that state, or certainly not to that extent

Then you do not understand what Paul was saying.

Romans 7:15-21
15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.

16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.

17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.



This is the dilemma of the New Christian trying to follow his new "spiritual" understanding of the Law.

Paul asks this Christian a specific question;

Romans 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?


The New Christian is stuck in this circular death. Wanting to do Good. Wanting to be like Christ. But not being able.

The solution?

Romans 8:1-4
1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

 

[Onesimus63]

Then you do not understand what Paul was saying.

Romans 7:15-21
15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.

16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.

17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.



This is the dilemma of the New Christian trying to follow his new "spiritual" understanding of the Law.

Paul asks this Christian a specific question;

Romans 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?


The New Christian is stuck in this circular death. Wanting to do Good. Wanting to be like Christ. But not being able.

The solution?

Romans 8:1-4
1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

I think he wrote very plainly:

What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence.

The power of sin is the law 1Cor15:56

It fits

 

[Grandpa]

I think he wrote very plainly:

What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence.

The power of sin is the law 1Cor15:56

It fits

Yes. He wrote plainly.

And you can quote scripture.


But you cannot explain the "why" behind it. Because you don't understand.