Election, that most contentious doctrine.

[Evmur]

Election is the golden thread which runs all the way through the bible, God chooses who will serve Him, who will be His people on the earth, who will be His witnesses.

ELECTION IS NOT UNTO SALVATION PER SE.

THAT is where the mistake lies, the mistake both Augustine and Calvin made which has turned the glorious, the most comforting, joyful doctrine from being sweet ointment poured forth into the most contentious, most odious doctrine in the church. The fly that maketh the apothecary stinketh.

The Jews were [and are] chosen of God and each member of the church has been chosen of God. We didn't love God He loved us, we did not choose Him He chose us. Not to be saved per se [although we must be first saved] but to be His instrument of salvation and blessing to everybody else. We are chosen [elected] to be a city set upon the hill so that men stumbling around in their darkness and woe can look up and see us and through us find their way to God.

Far, far from excluding anyone from salvation, we are elected to be God's instrument upon earth for the blessing and salvation of everyone who will.


If the evangelical church understood this they would stop forever with the hell fire and damnation "gospel" they love so much. Stop condemning everybody, stop banging on about sin ... show everybody the wonderful Saviour He has sent into the world and the way they may get rid of their sins and be saved.

They don't need to be told they are sinners, they need to be told they have been sent a Saviour who is Christ the Lord.

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

Election is the golden thread which runs all the way through the bible, God chooses who will serve Him, who will be His people on the earth, who will be His witnesses.

ELECTION IS NOT UNTO SALVATION PER SE.

THAT is where the mistake lies, the mistake both Augustine and Calvin made which has turned the glorious, the most comforting, joyful doctrine from being sweet ointment poured forth into the most contentious, most odious doctrine in the church. The fly that maketh the apothecary stinketh.

The Jews were [and are] chosen of God and each member of the church has been chosen of God. We didn't love God He loved us, we did not choose Him He chose us. Not to be saved per se [although we must be first saved] but to be His instrument of salvation and blessing to everybody else. We are chosen [elected] to be a city set upon the hill so that men stumbling around in their darkness and woe can look up and see us and through us find their way to God.

Far, far from excluding anyone from salvation, we are elected to be God's instrument upon earth for the blessing and salvation of everyone who will.


If the evangelical church understood this they would stop forever with the hell fire and damnation "gospel" they love so much. Stop condemning everybody, stop banging on about sin ... show everybody the wonderful Saviour He has sent into the world and the way they may get rid of their sins and be saved.

They don't need to be told they are sinners, they need to be told they have been sent a Saviour who is Christ the Lord.

I wish that someone would have had the guts to tell me that I wasn't saved; that I'd be going to hell if I didn't come to understand what it mean to receive the Circumcision of Christ. But, no one ever had the ability to do that. Instead, I was ostracised by the church. I was looked upon with scorn and ridicule. One pastor even prevented his own son from attending Youth Group because somehow, the "church" had established the idea that I was selling drugs to the kids in our church. Unbelievable.

No one worked with me. No one challenged me. But I will say this: The Lord knows who He will choose, and this is before the creation of the world. And because I am now Truly Saved, having received the Circumcision of Christ, if someone would have shown me the Doctrine of Spiritual Circumcision, I would have latched onto it like a baby to milk. When a person who has been Chosen by God and will one day later in his or her life hear the True Gospel, they WILL respond. The True Gospel WILL make sense, for their minds operate on a different "frequency" than that of others. Those who have been Chosen WILL understand, and when they hear the True Gospel, the Soil of God will be provided. The Water of the Spirit will be provided. The Food of Christ will be provided . . . and we WILL grow. We will change! We are not like those seeds that dry, wither and die because of a lack of Soil depth, Water, or Spiritual Nutrients. The weeds of our field will be plucked and removed. We WILL be Transformed; we WILL change!

I needed to know more than just the basic story of Christ. Instead, I needed to understand His Holy Purpose. I needed to understand His Holy Work. I needed to understand His Holy Effect. And so here is the question . . .

Who will teach the Purpose, Work, and Effect of Christ?

 

[Aerials1978]

I do think there is enough scriptural evidence to support the notion of “Election”. This has been a point of contention for centuries within the Christianity. Calvinism or Arminianism. Truth is God can do whatever He chooses. No one deserves salvation, and if God pre-destined certainly individuals or through a coming to faith for salvation, that’s His prerogative.

 

[Aerials1978]

I do think there is enough scriptural evidence to support the notion of “Election”. This has been a point of contention for centuries within Christianity. Calvinism or Arminianism. Truth is God can do whatever He chooses. No one deserves salvation, and if God pre-destined certainly individuals or through a coming to faith for salvation, that’s His prerogative.

 

[JStates]

I see a lot of supposition in the opening post, but not much Scripture.

Joh_6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Joh_6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

Joh_17:9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

Joh_6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

Rom_3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

This seems pretty straightforward to me. No human being is capable of seeking God on their own initiative. No one chooses God. No one chooses Christ. UNLESS God's Holy Spirit draws him to salvation.

And you cannot resist this drawing of the Holy Spirit. I experienced this personally. In my early 20's - despite being raised in a Christian environment - I rejected God and walked away from the Christian faith. I knew I was wrong and God kept pulling at me for years. Eventually He had to put me in a hospital bed and destroy my life to get my attention. But God won. God always wins. I confessed my wickedness and begged Jesus Christ to forgive me in 2016. Nothing has been the same since then.

And I think it is important to make a distinction between God choosing the Jews and predestination unto salvation. God chose the Jews to be the lineage for His Holy One, Jesus Christ, and to preserve God's Word, the Scriptures. All Jews are not chosen by God for salvation.

Those who believe in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior are "Israel" (God's Chosen People) now.

 

[JStates]

I should also mention that it is absolutely imperative to preach about sin and tell people they are sinners. In the modern era, the inclusive feel-good god of the One World religious system is a god of love who condemns no one. No one thinks they are that bad. No one thinks they are sinners.

That illusion will keep them from the One True God.

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

I see a lot of supposition in the opening post, but not much Scripture.

Joh_6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Joh_6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

Joh_17:9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

Joh_6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

Rom_3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

This seems pretty straightforward to me. No human being is capable of seeking God on their own initiative. No one chooses God. No one chooses Christ. UNLESS God's Holy Spirit draws him to salvation.

And you cannot resist this drawing of the Holy Spirit. I experienced this personally. In my early 20's - despite being raised in a Christian environment - I rejected God and walked away from the Christian faith. I knew I was wrong and God kept pulling at me for years. Eventually He had to put me in a hospital bed and destroy my life to get my attention. But God won. God always wins. I confessed my wickedness and begged Jesus Christ to forgive me in 2016. Nothing has been the same since then.

And I think it is important to make a distinction between God choosing the Jews and predestination unto salvation. God chose the Jews to be the lineage for His Holy One, Jesus Christ, and to preserve God's Word, the Scriptures. All Jews are not chosen by God for salvation.

Those who believe in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior are "Israel" (God's Chosen People) now.

Interesting . . . the Lord extended His Holy Terror to me and followed that up with His Indwelling Holy Spirit. The Peace and Love that I felt in that moment where I was Purified, if it had been more Powerful, I could have died. This, my friend . . . was in 2016. October 27th, I believe.

I should also add that what you have concluded about what the Bible has to say about Election; this is what I have found to be consistent throughout the Entire Bible. Reading the Bible in a timeline, chronological order so that we can understand the Story of God, the True Gospel . . . helps to put the Power of God, and Election, into proper perspective.

BTW: Evmur is the man! Love that guy. - I got kicked off of Worthy Chat for defending him.

 

[JStates]

Interesting . . . the Lord extended His Holy Terror to me and followed that up with His Indwelling Holy Spirit. The Peace and Love that I felt in that moment where I was Purified, if it had been more Powerful, I could have died. This, my friend . . . was in 2016. October 27th, I believe.

I should also add that what you have concluded about what the Bible has to say about Election; this is what I have found to be consistent throughout the Entire Bible. Reading the Bible in a timeline, chronological order so that we can understand the Story of God, the True Gospel . . . helps to put the Power of God, and Election, into proper perspective.

BTW: Evmur is the man! Love that guy. - I got kicked off of Worthy Chat for defending him.

The "Lord's Holy Terror" ...yeah, that sums it up pretty well, actually! The peace and relief when I just let go of my pride and turned to Christ were simply unbelievable; I know what you mean. For me, it was two days before Thanksgiving, so I guess God paid you a visit first!

 

[Dino246]

And you cannot resist this drawing of the Holy Spirit. I experienced this personally.

Your personal experience is not evidence that none can resist the drawing of the Holy Spirit.

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

Your personal experience is not evidence that none can resist the drawing of the Holy Spirit.

Should you ever experience the Indwelling Spirit yourself, you would certainly change your teaching.

 

[Evmur]

I should also mention that it is absolutely imperative to preach about sin and tell people they are sinners. In the modern era, the inclusive feel-good god of the One World religious system is a god of love who condemns no one. No one thinks they are that bad. No one thinks they are sinners.

That illusion will keep them from the One True God.

Have you read Paul's sermon at the altar of the unknown God? I preach about sin, how God has sent His Son to save us from it, how that Christ bore them in His own body on the tree. Our job is not to convict folks with sin, that's the Holy Spirit's job and He does it very well.

I preach that sin has separated us from God and is the cause of every woe and sorrow mankind faces, but Christ has come to bring us back to God.

 

[Evmur]

I see a lot of supposition in the opening post, but not much Scripture.

Joh_6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Joh_6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

Joh_17:9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

Joh_6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

Rom_3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

This seems pretty straightforward to me. No human being is capable of seeking God on their own initiative. No one chooses God. No one chooses Christ. UNLESS God's Holy Spirit draws him to salvation.

And you cannot resist this drawing of the Holy Spirit. I experienced this personally. In my early 20's - despite being raised in a Christian environment - I rejected God and walked away from the Christian faith. I knew I was wrong and God kept pulling at me for years. Eventually He had to put me in a hospital bed and destroy my life to get my attention. But God won. God always wins. I confessed my wickedness and begged Jesus Christ to forgive me in 2016. Nothing has been the same since then.

And I think it is important to make a distinction between God choosing the Jews and predestination unto salvation. God chose the Jews to be the lineage for His Holy One, Jesus Christ, and to preserve God's Word, the Scriptures. All Jews are not chosen by God for salvation.

Those who believe in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior are "Israel" (God's Chosen People) now.

The whole doctrine of ELECTION is about us being chosen by God. You cannot discuss election without talking about how it is we have come to a knowledge of God and His salvation.

I kinda took it for granted that was given.

 

[JStates]

Your personal experience is not evidence that none can resist the drawing of the Holy Spirit.

I may have worded that poorly. I guess "resistance is futile!" is more the message I was going for. One can resist, but God will break you down eventually.

You are correct that my personal experience proves NO universal rule... but I think it's pretty obvious from the Scriptures that if God the Father has given someone into Christ's hands, they cannot resist the pull of grace forever, because Christ said that He would lose NOT ONE of those entrusted to Him.

 

[Evmur]

I should also mention that it is absolutely imperative to preach about sin and tell people they are sinners. In the modern era, the inclusive feel-good god of the One World religious system is a god of love who condemns no one. No one thinks they are that bad. No one thinks they are sinners.

That illusion will keep them from the One True God.

God does not condemn anybody ... the church [very often] does.
God sent not His Son into the world to condemn the world but that through Him the world might be saved.

 

[Blain]

The thing I have against election is that it just doesn't line up with his personality. Jesus preached salvation to many people even knowing that few would believe and follow him some even tried to kill him yet he still spoke to them about the things of the kingdom. Then you have father who is known for his endless love and grace his merciful and kind nature he fashioned us humans to be like him. if you as a father had two children and you knew that a certain event was going to happen that would kill them would you predestine to save only one by telling them how to be saved from it or would you tell both of them hoping both would listen and not face death?

 

[Evmur]

The thing I have against election is that it just doesn't line up with his personality. Jesus preached salvation to many people even knowing that few would believe and follow him some even tried to kill him yet he still spoke to them about the things of the kingdom. Then you have father who is known for his endless love and grace his merciful and kind nature he fashioned us humans to be like him. if you as a father had two children and you knew that a certain event was going to happen that would kill them would you predestine to save only one by telling them how to be saved from it or would you tell both of them hoping both would listen and not face death?

Election is unto becoming that instrument and means by which God has chosen to call ALL men unto repentance. It is election to become a member of Christ's Body the Church. It excludes nobody from being saved.

 

[JStates]

God does not condemn anybody ... the church [very often] does.
God sent not His Son into the world to condemn the world but that through Him the world might be saved.

God condemns everyone by default -- He MUST in order to retain His sinless justice.

That verse you quote is correct, but it's more about the role of the SON Jesus Christ, not the Father. The SON was not sent to condemn the world but to save it.

 

[Evmur]

God condemns everyone by default -- He MUST in order to retain His sinless justice.

That verse you quote is correct, but it's more about the role of the SON Jesus Christ, not the Father. The SON was not sent to condemn the world but to save it.

He doesn't condemn He simply states the truth

 

[JStates]

He doesn't condemn He simply states the truth

And yet God describes Himself as a completely perfect and righteous Judge. The Bible says humanity is condemned already in their sins. If God is not condemning them, then who is?

Joh_3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

 

[Evmur]

And yet God describes Himself as a completely perfect and righteous Judge. The Bible says humanity is condemned already in their sins. If God is not condemning them, then who is?

Joh_3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

This is the crooked way that folks teach scripture, it is not advocating we run about condemning everybody for not believing.

Announce the GOOD NEWS of God's salvation, it's all good, we don't have any bad news to give anybody, he that believeth is saved. It is true he that believeth not is already condemned for not believing. But you don't go preaching the condemnation you go preaching the GOOD NEWS.