Interpreting the Parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus: It's Really Good News!

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posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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Luke 16:31 . . neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

That's likely still true today. I've lately run across some videos on YouTube of folk
who claim they've been to hell. I doubt very many people take their stories seriously
enough to be scared into straightening up.
_
probably the primary reference here is Christ Himself :unsure:

and 'the other' Lazarus, whom Christ raised . . ?
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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The 16th chapter of Luke was meant for his disciples' learning.

Luke 16:1 . . And he said also unto his disciples . . etc. etc.

The Pharisees were eavesdropping.

Luke 16:14 . . And the Pharisees also, who were covetous, heard all these
things: and they derided him.


After Jesus scolded the Pharisees with Luke 16:15, he picked up where he
left off with his disciplines at Luke16:16 and continued with them all the way
down to Luke 17:10.


It's tricky sometimes to tell whether Jesus was speaking to a crowd or to his
disciples but it's very important to sleuth the difference because he taught
his disciples differently than he taught the crowds.


Matt 13:10-16 . . And the disciples came and said to him: Why do you
speak to them in parables? And he answered and said to them: To you it has
been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them
it has not been granted, etc, etc.


Seeing as how the story of the rich man, Lazarus, and Abraham was meant
for the ears of Jesus' disciples, then I sincerely believe we should not
attempt to categorize it as a parable per Matt 13:34.
_
agree that fully understanding this we have to sort out if He is speaking to His disciples or to the pharisees :)
 

posthuman

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Why did Jesus die on the cross?
Romans 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
big, pertinent question;

here's another part of it:

To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto Himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them
(2 Corinthians 5:19)
is this opening again the way to the tree of life, that He guarded/kept in Genesis 3?
or the beginning of that opening?
 

Webers.Home

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Some years ago a Jewish man interrogated me with a question that went
something like this:

"Okay, so you have forgiveness for sins up to the point where you took up a
belief in Christ. What about the sins you've committed since then?"

We know from Rev 20:11-15 that God is keeping detailed files on everyone:
records of everything they do. Well; when people come to a faith in Christ,
God prosecutes them to the fullest extent of their file by making them
participants in Christ's crucifixion.

Rom 6:3-11 . . Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into
Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? . . For we know that our old self
was crucified with him

Gal 2:20 . . I am crucified with Christ

Col 3:2-3 . . Set your affection on things above, not on things on the
earth. For you are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.

From that point onward; the participants are in no danger of
prosecution because God no longer records their sins.

2Cor 5:19 . . God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself; not
counting their trespasses against them.

The Greek word translated "counting" is logizomai (log-id'-zom-ahee) which
basically refers to inventories, i.e. indictments.

2Cor 5:19 is quite an advantage because when there is nothing bad on the
books, then there is nothing that can in any way be used to prove that
somebody has ever been anything less than 100% innocent. This may seem
like cooking the books, but God has a way to do it that's on the up and up.

Anyway, to the point: when the books are opened at the grand event
depicted at Rev 20:11-15, none of the names of Christ's participants will be
registered because there is nothing entered in the books with which to charge
them. Even if their names were to be registered, the place on the page where
sins are inventoried would be blank.
_
 
Jan 5, 2022
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"A higher plane," hehe
www.youtube.com
No. Jesus did not say any such thing about this narrative. When Christ specifically named the beggar as Lazarus, and specifically related the dialogue between Abraham and the rich man, He made it clear that He was relating an actual account of what happened in Sheol/Hades.

GAEBELEIN'S COMMENTARY
Luke 16:19-31
A solemn paragraph closes the chapter. Avoid the use of the word “parable” in connection with these verses. The Lord said, “There was a certain rich man.” It is history and not a parable. The derision of the Pharisees on account of the Lord’s words about the unjust steward must have been based upon their trust in the law and the promise of the law, that temporal blessings and riches were in store for all who keep the law. The story our Lord relates is aimed once more at the sneering, unbelieving, self-righteous Pharisees.
The pastor of the church I watch online recently preached about this. Prior to Christ's death and resurrection, Abraham's Bosom was a refuge for believers who were not yet covered by the shed blood of Christ. After Christ's resurrection, these saints went to Paradise having been washed clean from their sins.

Eternal torment is a very real thing for the unregenerate sinner who dies in sins apart from Christ, though it should be pointed out that the Lake of Fire was made to punish demons, not humans. So you really don't want to end up there, x2!
 
Mar 4, 2020
8,614
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The 16th chapter of Luke was meant for his disciples' learning.

Luke 16:1 . . And he said also unto his disciples . . etc. etc.

The Pharisees were eavesdropping.

Luke 16:14 . . And the Pharisees also, who were covetous, heard all these
things: and they derided him.


After Jesus scolded the Pharisees with Luke 16:15, he picked up where he
left off with his disciplines at Luke16:16 and continued with them all the way
down to Luke 17:10.


It's tricky sometimes to tell whether Jesus was speaking to a crowd or to his
disciples but it's very important to sleuth the difference because he taught
his disciples differently than he taught the crowds.


Matt 13:10-16 . . And the disciples came and said to him: Why do you
speak to them in parables? And he answered and said to them: To you it has
been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them
it has not been granted, etc, etc.


Seeing as how the story of the rich man, Lazarus, and Abraham was meant
for the ears of Jesus' disciples, then I sincerely believe we should not
attempt to categorize it as a parable per Matt 13:34.
_
This discourse begins in Luke 14:25 "25And there went great multitudes with him: and he turned, and said unto them..."

By Luke 15:1, this is happening "1Then drew near unto him all the publicans and sinners for to hear him. 2And the Pharisees and scribes murmured, saying, This man receiveth sinners, and eateth with them."

Among great multitudes with Jesus were tax collectors and sinners and there were scribes and Pharisees.

Jesus was keenly aware of the group of people surrounding Him that were clearly not His disciples and the majority of the passages from Luke 14-16 are parables directed at His audience of a diverse multitude of people. Furthermore, it's clear that the bits Jesus did speak to His disciples was in the form of parables because there were other people present and listening to Jesus' teachings. The parables Jesus speak to His disciples were, therefore, for the benefit of those who were listening.

The parable of the rich man and Lazarus was not meant exclusively for the ears of Jesus' disciples, as shown in the evidence above. For this reason, we should make great effort to keep Biblical consistency, as difficult as that may be some times, and categorize the rich man and Lazarus as a parable.
 
Mar 4, 2020
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To add to my previous post, when Jesus explained things to His disciples, He did so privately. The context of the discourse that involves the Rich Man and Lazarus, which spans Luke 14-16, was not a private setting.

Mark 4:34
34But without a parable spake he not unto them: and when they were alone, he expounded all things to his disciples.
 
Jul 23, 2018
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Some years ago a Jewish man interrogated me with a question that went
something like this:


"Okay, so you have forgiveness for sins up to the point where you took up a
belief in Christ. What about the sins you've committed since then?"


We know from Rev 20:11-15 that God is keeping detailed files on everyone:
records of everything they do. Well; when people come to a faith in Christ,
God prosecutes them to the fullest extent of their file by making them
participants in Christ's crucifixion.


Rom 6:3-11 . . Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into
Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? . . For we know that our old self
was crucified with him


Gal 2:20 . . I am crucified with Christ

Col 3:2-3 . . Set your affection on things above, not on things on the
earth. For you are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.


From that point onward; the participants are in no danger of
prosecution because God no longer records their sins.


2Cor 5:19 . . God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself; not
counting their trespasses against them.


The Greek word translated "counting" is logizomai (log-id'-zom-ahee) which
basically refers to inventories, i.e. indictments.


2Cor 5:19 is quite an advantage because when there is nothing bad on the
books, then there is nothing that can in any way be used to prove that
somebody has ever been anything less than 100% innocent. This may seem
like cooking the books, but God has a way to do it that's on the up and up.


Anyway, to the point: when the books are opened at the grand event
depicted at Rev 20:11-15, none of the names of Christ's participants will be
registered because there is nothing entered in the books with which to charge
them. Even if their names were to be registered, the place on the page where
sins are inventoried would be blank.
_
All that assumes no repentance of the believer is necessary.
7 letters to the churches in rev lays that notion to rest.
 
Jul 23, 2018
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The pastor of the church I watch online recently preached about this. Prior to Christ's death and resurrection, Abraham's Bosom was a refuge for believers who were not yet covered by the shed blood of Christ. After Christ's resurrection, these saints went to Paradise having been washed clean from their sins.

Eternal torment is a very real thing for the unregenerate sinner who dies in sins apart from Christ, though it should be pointed out that the Lake of Fire was made to punish demons, not humans. So you really don't want to end up there, x2!
Bingo
 

Webers.Home

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May 28, 2018
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Mark 4:34 But without a parable spake he not unto them: and when they
were alone, he expounded all things to his disciples.
I would've liked to been on hand when Jesus expounded his defense for
quoting Abraham saying things that he didn't really say; which in my
judicious estimation is especially despicable due to the fact that Abraham is
one of God's buddies. (Isa 41:8)

All I'm saying is: if we can't trust Jesus to tell the truth about his Father's
friends, then how are we supposed to trust him to tell the truth about one of
us?

This is a serious question because Jesus is the one and only mediator in
Heaven between God and Man. Well; I for one don't want someone unfaithful
to me speaking on my behalf before the throne of God.

One other point: nothing Jesus taught originated with him.

John 8:26 . .He that sent me is true; and I speak to the world those things
which I have heard of Him.

John 8:28 . . I do nothing on my own initiative, but I speak these things as
the Father taught me.

John 12:49 . . I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me,
He gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.

John 14:24 . .The word which you hear is not mine, but the Father's who
sent me.

John 3:34-35 . .He is sent by God. He speaks God's words, for God's spirit
is upon him without measure or limit.

Heb 1:1-2 . . In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the
prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days He has
spoken to us by His son

I cannot imagine someone as famous for honesty and integrity as God
directing His own son to tell us things about people that aren't true;
especially about His friends.

John 17:3 . . You . . the only truthful God

Heb 6:18 . . it is impossible for God to lie

If God really is as reliable as the Bible presents Him; then I should think it
completely safe to assume that all of Jesus' parables, every one of them,
from the shortest to the longest, are 100% true stories.

As for Abraham; he was a prophet, i.e. an inspired man (Gen 20:7). As
such, he would be privy to information that would normally be unavailable to
the average rank and file pew warmer. Abraham was also a teacher/mentor.
(Gen 18:19)

So then, I think it's fairly safe to assume the information that Abraham
passed on to the rich man came to Abraham via inspiration; which, if so,
means that our reaction to his remarks should be very different than the rich
man's. He brushed aside what Abraham told him; but we, I should hope, are
wiser than that impious dunce because we know that a prophet's teachings
are the voice of God.
_
 
Jul 24, 2021
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ok - now that everyone is out of surgery and recovering... ((yay!))

i did not mean to imply that 'one bite' of the tree of life = immortality
here's what i did mean:

in the context of that other thread it was being put forth that Adam only had life because he 'maintained' it by eating regularly from the tree of life. by implication, Adam was created in a constant state of 'dying, you shall die' from the beginning, without ever having eaten of the tree of 'dying, you shall die'
i am opposed to the idea of God creating a dying-you-shall-surely-die sinless Adam. i believe scripture is completely opposed to this: see for example Romans 5:12, sin entered through Adam and death through sin. if we take the view that Adam was created in a state of constant decay and would die if he stopped eating from the tree in the midst of the garden, then we have death in God's sinless creation before sin enters the world. we contradict scripture. therefore such opinion is discarded
There is no contradiction
There is only one immortal soul. That is God.
1 Timothy 6:16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

Here is a Scripture that is in direct to original sin as a state of being.
Ezekiel 18:20 The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.

See below for perfection of man.

it is in this context that i wrote in that other thread the things you quote:
Adam had ample time after eating from the tree of death to then go and eat from the tree of life
obvious question: why did Adam spend his time making garments of fig leaves, instead of eating from the tree of life?
is the tree for life an antidote for death?
if so why did Adam not eat of it given motive & opportunity?
is Adam stupid? or is Adam wise?
did Adam know he should not eat of the tree of life in his present condition?
to fully answer the questions listed above, we need to understand something about Genesis 3:22-24, which @Webers.Home helpfully brought up:
"..And now, lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever” — therefore the Lord God sent him out of the garden of Eden to till the ground from which he was taken. So He drove out the man; and He placed cherubim at the east of the garden of Eden, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to guard the way to the tree of life.
two things to glean here:
God considers it 'not good' that Adam in his present state eat from the tree of life
God also thinks it good to keep the way to the tree of life: the implication being that at some later time, under some other circumstance, the way must remain, so Adam can eat from it at that time
so that same obvious question arises again:
do Adam and his wife refrain from eating from the tree of life ((they certainly had opportunity)) because they know it is not good in their present state to do so?
or do Adam and his wife refrain from eating of the tree of life in their present state ((knowing for sure they had ample time and opportunity)) because they were too stupid to realize it would have healed them from the death-you-shall-surely-death they had ingested?
follow up question:
what would have happened if they had eaten from the tree of life after eating from the tree of surely-die?
The Tree of Life is a mechanism to sustain as per God's Gifting - life to those who obey.
Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

The timing of the event is unknown. My opinion, the path was barred right away. Reason is nobody like vampires. Long lived and their curiosity driven by vices.
But like you said they could have eaten any time in potentia. Barring the notion that the fruit grants one immortality like the pagan myths, are you assuming the Tree of Knowledge changed/damage the pre-existing perfection of Adam and Eve? Is that the condition that could be cured by the Tree of Life? That is a false and illogical belief.

Adam and Eve were very good, not perfect. Immortality is exclusive to God either Within or Without.
Genesis 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

I need water to live. I have 10 gallons of water. Am I good to the end of my days. No, I am good till the water runs out. The immortality granted by God is contingent not intrinsic.

The change of state of Adam and Eve at the Fall is not a body change but a change in their "marriage". God was no longer in the immediate family, so the divine benefits are no longer felt. The sustenance was no longer given.
Matthew 24:13 But the' one who endures to the end will be saved.
Psalm 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
 
Jul 24, 2021
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big, pertinent question;

here's another part of it:

To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto Himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them
(2 Corinthians 5:19)
is this opening again the way to the tree of life, that He guarded/kept in Genesis 3?
or the beginning of that opening?
Maybe on the higher degrees of separation as the Tree can only be achieved by Jesus. On the first notion, this is a reminiscent of the rebuke of all of those proud in the Law that their behaviour counts
Romans 2:24 For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written.

Consider 1 verse after
2 Corinthians 5:20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.
 
Jul 24, 2021
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Christ is God manifest in the flesh.
He is the Door, and the Gift of God: God gives Himself. God provides Himself, A Lamb.


Christ literally says "I give My sheep eternal life"
Q.E.D. you literally have no argument for "
Christ does not give His sheep eternal life"
if that's what you think, you are wrong. ((proof is left for the student to calculate ;)))
John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
Once again, I nudge and say God is the Gifter and the Gift is the Christ. Thank the Gifter not the Gift. Never mistaken the Gift for the Gifter as it is rude and awkward in most polite circles. :)
 
Mar 4, 2020
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I would've liked to been on hand when Jesus expounded his defense for
quoting Abraham saying things that he didn't really say; which in my
judicious estimation is especially despicable due to the fact that Abraham is
one of God's buddies. (Isa 41:8)


All I'm saying is: if we can't trust Jesus to tell the truth about his Father's
friends, then how are we supposed to trust him to tell the truth about one of
us?


This is a serious question because Jesus is the one and only mediator in
Heaven between God and Man. Well; I for one don't want someone unfaithful
to me speaking on my behalf before the throne of God.


One other point: nothing Jesus taught originated with him.

John 8:26 . .He that sent me is true; and I speak to the world those things
which I have heard of Him.


John 8:28 . . I do nothing on my own initiative, but I speak these things as
the Father taught me.


John 12:49 . . I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me,
He gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.


John 14:24 . .The word which you hear is not mine, but the Father's who
sent me.


John 3:34-35 . .He is sent by God. He speaks God's words, for God's spirit
is upon him without measure or limit.


Heb 1:1-2 . . In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the
prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days He has
spoken to us by His son


I cannot imagine someone as famous for honesty and integrity as God
directing His own son to tell us things about people that aren't true;
especially about His friends.


John 17:3 . . You . . the only truthful God

Heb 6:18 . . it is impossible for God to lie

If God really is as reliable as the Bible presents Him; then I should think it
completely safe to assume that all of Jesus' parables, every one of them,
from the shortest to the longest, are 100% true stories.


As for Abraham; he was a prophet, i.e. an inspired man (Gen 20:7). As
such, he would be privy to information that would normally be unavailable to
the average rank and file pew warmer. Abraham was also a teacher/mentor.
(Gen 18:19)


So then, I think it's fairly safe to assume the information that Abraham
passed on to the rich man came to Abraham via inspiration; which, if so,
means that our reaction to his remarks should be very different than the rich
man's. He brushed aside what Abraham told him; but we, I should hope, are
wiser than that impious dunce because we know that a prophet's teachings
are the voice of God.
_
Okay you can take it 100% literal if you want. Maybe you (or anyone) can answer some questions for me to help me see it your way.

Why is the beggar being named a proof that it’s not a parable?

How is the rich man able to identify Abraham from a far distance if he’s never seen Abraham before?

How is the rich man able to carry on a coherent and intelligible conversation while in flames in torment?

Where else does it say in the Bible that if someone receives good things in life then they go to torment? Where does it say that those who receive evil things go to comfort?

Why does Abraham seem to think that if someone rose from the dead and gave their testimony of the afterlife that no one would believe their testimony? The resurrection of Christ and His testimony is a cornerstone of Christianity, but according to this parable, it says that Abraham apparently believes that being resurrected and testifying of the afterlife is useless.

Really looks like a parable to me.

It’s kinda like how Jesus identified Himself as a “thief in the night” even though stealing is a sin and it’s not possible to steal what already belongs to someone. Jesus meant that “as a thief” as a comparison. He wasn’t saying He is a thief or that He’ll literally come at night, it’s just an analogy to make a point.

From my perspective, I think the rich man and Lazarus story is just about making spiritual points and not meant to be literal.
 
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"A higher plane," hehe
www.youtube.com
There is no contradiction
There is only one immortal soul. That is God.
1 Timothy 6:16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

Here is a Scripture that is in direct to original sin as a state of being.
Ezekiel 18:20 The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.

See below for perfection of man.


The Tree of Life is a mechanism to sustain as per God's Gifting - life to those who obey.
Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

The timing of the event is unknown. My opinion, the path was barred right away. Reason is nobody like vampires. Long lived and their curiosity driven by vices.
But like you said they could have eaten any time in potentia. Barring the notion that the fruit grants one immortality like the pagan myths, are you assuming the Tree of Knowledge changed/damage the pre-existing perfection of Adam and Eve? Is that the condition that could be cured by the Tree of Life? That is a false and illogical belief.

Adam and Eve were very good, not perfect. Immortality is exclusive to God either Within or Without.
Genesis 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

I need water to live. I have 10 gallons of water. Am I good to the end of my days. No, I am good till the water runs out. The immortality granted by God is contingent not intrinsic.

The change of state of Adam and Eve at the Fall is not a body change but a change in their "marriage". God was no longer in the immediate family, so the divine benefits are no longer felt. The sustenance was no longer given.
Matthew 24:13 But the' one who endures to the end will be saved.
Psalm 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
Great post, thank you! God is working to reconcile all things unto Himself. Those things which are reconciled to God in Christ will have eternal life. Those not reconciled will not.

Col_1:20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.
 
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"A higher plane," hehe
www.youtube.com
Why is the beggar being named a proof that it’s not a parable?

How is the rich man able to identify Abraham from a far distance if he’s never seen Abraham before?

How is the rich man able to carry on a coherent and intelligible conversation while in flames in torment?

Where else does it say in the Bible that if someone receives good things in life then they go to torment? Where does it say that those who receive evil things go to comfort?

Why does Abraham seem to think that if someone rose from the dead and gave their testimony of the afterlife that no one would believe their testimony? The resurrection of Christ and His testimony is a cornerstone of Christianity, but according to this parable, it says that Abraham apparently believes that being resurrected and testifying of the afterlife is useless.
1. Other clearly labeled parables don't use real names. What would be the purpose of ascribing a real name to a fictitious character?
2. Unknown, but my studies of hypnotism suggest that there are senses of perception that are not tied to the physical body. We also see in the Scriptures that BOTH the saved AND the damned will have perfected bodies, so this could be the answer as well.
3. See #2. In this life, sometimes extreme pain can drive someone mad. Possibly not so in a perfected body. The point of eternal damnation is that the sufferer KNOWS exactly why it is happening to them. That is part of the torment. Speaking from personal experience (chronic health issues and seizure-like migraines) I am sometimes at my MOST spiritually aware during periods of intense suffering. Job was able to carry on reasonable conversation despite his sufferings.
4. Not the point, and not intended to be a universal law or rule. Abraham is simply saying, "You had a good life and plenty of time to sort out your spiritual situation if you were going to do so."
5. Abraham says that some people would not believe the testimony of the dead because it is simply true. Many also reject Christ and His testimony. That's the POINT of Abraham's words. They have the Law, Prophets (at that time; now we have even more testimony); if that isn't enough to convict someone unto salvation then having the dead speak won't do it either. "But without faith it is impossible to please God."
 

Webers.Home

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Why is the beggar being named a proof that it’s not a parable?
Abraham being named is the one who deserves your attention rather than
Lazarus because according to post No.211 the patriarch is far and away the
most important figure in this story.



How is the rich man able to identify Abraham from a far distance if he’s
never seen Abraham before?
The same question can be asked of the transfiguration. How did Peter know
it was Elijah and Moses meeting with Jesus? Well all he had to do was just
ask Jesus who they were. In like manner all the rich man had to do was
call across the chasm like this: Hey Lazarus: who's your companion?



How is the rich man able to carry on a coherent and intelligible conversation
while in flames in torment?
It's often assumed that the man was on fire instead of in fire. In other
words; his side of the chasm was an oven, i.e. his body was being cooked
but not kindled.



Where else does it say in the Bible that if someone receives good things in
life then they go to torment? Where does it say that those who receive evil
things go to comfort?
That issue was addressed back in post No.11


Why does Abraham seem to think that if someone rose from the dead and
gave their testimony of the afterlife that no one would believe their
testimony?
According to post No.211, Abraham was a prophet. In other words:
Abraham's remark wasn't off the top of his head; he was inspired.



The resurrection of Christ and His testimony is a cornerstone of Christianity,
but according to this parable, it says that Abraham apparently believes that
being resurrected and testifying of the afterlife is useless.
Jesus had not yet been crucified, nor yet risen from the dead, when the
incident recorded in Luke 16:19-31 took place.
_
 
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1. Other clearly labeled parables don't use real names. What would be the purpose of ascribing a real name to a fictitious character?
2. Unknown, but my studies of hypnotism suggest that there are senses of perception that are not tied to the physical body. We also see in the Scriptures that BOTH the saved AND the damned will have perfected bodies, so this could be the answer as well.
3. See #2. In this life, sometimes extreme pain can drive someone mad. Possibly not so in a perfected body. The point of eternal damnation is that the sufferer KNOWS exactly why it is happening to them. That is part of the torment. Speaking from personal experience (chronic health issues and seizure-like migraines) I am sometimes at my MOST spiritually aware during periods of intense suffering. Job was able to carry on reasonable conversation despite his sufferings.
4. Not the point, and not intended to be a universal law or rule. Abraham is simply saying, "You had a good life and plenty of time to sort out your spiritual situation if you were going to do so."
5. Abraham says that some people would not believe the testimony of the dead because it is simply true. Many also reject Christ and His testimony. That's the POINT of Abraham's words. They have the Law, Prophets (at that time; now we have even more testimony); if that isn't enough to convict someone unto salvation then having the dead speak won't do it either. "But without faith it is impossible to please God."
1. Other clearly labeled parables don't use real names. What would be the purpose of ascribing a real name to a fictitious character?
My answer is that ascribing a proper name to a character in a parable is not different than ascribing title such as field worker, manager, widow, etc. Field workers, managers, and widows can be real people, too. Why are those still called parables?

2. Unknown, but my studies of hypnotism suggest that there are senses of perception that are not tied to the physical body. We also see in the Scriptures that BOTH the saved AND the damned will have perfected bodies, so this could be the answer as well.
In my opinion, that's a bit far-reaching. I mean, is there a Bible verse about having extra-sensory perception or being able to instantly identify someone you don't know?

3. See #2. In this life, sometimes extreme pain can drive someone mad. Possibly not so in a perfected body. The point of eternal damnation is that the sufferer KNOWS exactly why it is happening to them. That is part of the torment. Speaking from personal experience (chronic health issues and seizure-like migraines) I am sometimes at my MOST spiritually aware during periods of intense suffering. Job was able to carry on reasonable conversation despite his sufferings.
"There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth..." seems to describe the feelings of people in this place of fire. The rich man isn't said to be weeping or gnashing his teeth. He seems collected in his thoughts and has a clear plan that he can articulate logically. Ever held you hand to an open flame and attempted to have a nice chat with someone? Get back to me on that one. (Hint: It doesn't work.)

4. Not the point, and not intended to be a universal law or rule. Abraham is simply saying, "You had a good life and plenty of time to sort out your spiritual situation if you were going to do so."
That's an interpretation, but that's not what the text plainly says. It says the reason why they are where they are is because the rich man had good things and the beggar had bad things. If there is an old testament reference describing someone's' economic status as a reason for their place in the afterlife then that'd be something to consider.

If Abraham is implying "you had time to sort out your spiritual status" then why doesn't he confront the beggar too? While begging doesn't appear to be a sin, laziness or slothfulness is a sin.

5. Abraham says that some people would not believe the testimony of the dead because it is simply true. Many also reject Christ and His testimony. That's the POINT of Abraham's words. They have the Law, Prophets (at that time; now we have even more testimony); if that isn't enough to convict someone unto salvation then having the dead speak won't do it either. "But without faith it is impossible to please God."
If my brother named Lazarus died, remained dead for a period of time, was resurrected, and told me about his experiences in the afterlife I would believe him. Actually, a miracle like that is a powerful testimony and that is what the very core pillar of Christianity is built upon: the resurrection. Those are the sorts of things that turn atheists into hardcore believers. I don't understand why Abraham would literally reject that. In my opinion, that's a powerful reason why this is a parable.

1 Cor. 15:14
14And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.

Meanwhile, words on a piece of paper, while interesting, are not the same as tangible proof of something. This is why miracles exist: for the purpose of persuading and converting others, with powerful effect, to the glory of God. When people have their signs and miracles, they'll be more likely to have faith in the words in a book.

Luke 7:22
22Then Jesus answering said unto them, Go your way, and tell John what things ye have seen and heard; how that the blind see, the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, to the poor the gospel is preached.

John 4:48
48Then said Jesus unto him, Except ye see signs and wonders, ye will not believe.

Jesus used miracles to substantiate His claims.
John 6:30
30They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work?

Romans 15:18-19
18For I will not dare to speak of any of those things which Christ hath not wrought by me, to make the Gentiles obedient, by word and deed, 19Through mighty signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God; so that from Jerusalem, and round about unto Illyricum, I have fully preached the gospel of Christ
 
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If you think the characters in the story of Luke 16 correspond to real people in the near future, then tell me, who is the rich man in contrast to Lazarous?
What do you think of the interpretation of the parable?