Does God choose your spouse or do you with God's guidance?

[Lanolin]

ANE anthropology is definitely different than today...and we tend to think of their current practices as restrictive.

But obviously Leah was veiled and likely Jacob a bit tipsy from the wedding party.
But the next morning would have been way too late to do anything about it. At the wedding party the night before...that would have been the time.
And where was Rachel during all of this? Jacob's personal attendants? Obviously they weren't exactly where they should have been.... obviously didn't say anything to Jacob until it was too late.
Jacob knew better but didn't do better.

good question ....where was Rachel?
If it was me and my intended had got married to my sister I am not sure if I would have then married him as well!

or I would have had a talk with them and got them to do an annulment since they married under false pretences. Unfortunately Jacobs twin brother Esau was already married...Rachel could have matchmaked him with Leah...

 

[JohnDB]

good question ....where was Rachel?
If it was me and my intended had got married to my sister I am not sure if I would have then married him as well!

or I would have had a talk with them and got them to do an annulment since they married under false pretences. Unfortunately Jacobs twin brother Esau was already married...Rachel could have matchmaked him with Leah...

Esau's wives really annoyed Isaac and Rebecca.

And yeah...if you were Rebecca and your sister is about to marry your husband to be...
Wouldn't that sibling rivalry come out like only a family feud could? There would be some hair pulling and claw scratching like there was no tomorrow.

And an annulment wouldn't be possible...her hymen had been broken. Jacob would have had to pay for her (the bride price) regardless of gaining the wife or not.
Marriages were regularly consummated during the wedding party. The groom would toss a bloody rag at the best man standing at the door to show everyone that everything is fine. For the issue of not marrying a true virgin. But he is also supposed to guard the room and make sure that the woman who enters is the intended bride too. (Obviously he didn't do right)

 

[presidente]

If you want to believe that women are the source of all evil be my guest...

I don't...and I explained how they aren't. You can choose to believe or not. But what I explained is most certainly plausible for an English reader.
If you read Hebrew then you would know. And I don't have the patience or wherewithal to be a Hebrew instructor. So guess what?

Its in the metaphoric language of Hebrew... Adam was right there with her the whole time. She led the actions but he wanted it too. And he was going to watch her to see if she died first before he ate.

A lot of nuances don't translate well when dealing with metaphoric languages and English often has nothing equivalent...it's the poorest receptor language of the scriptures.

You make it sound so secret and esoteric. I looked up a website that promotes the idea.

The idea, in this interpretation, is that 'with her' means they were together.

Genesis 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

This doesn't look like anything that is secret in the Hebrew and cannot come through in translation. IF we assume that he was with her when she ate, maybe he was letting her try it first. But if he was off tending the garden while she was talking to the serpent, she ate, and then she was with him and then went and found him and was with him and gave him a bite, then it doesn' t apply.

This is speculation, and I don't consider not wanting women to be the source of evil as reason to think I must accept this interpretation, nor do I think seeing this interpretation necessitates seeing women as the source of evil. Traditional Christian interpretation has the Devil falling into sin before Eve, anyway.

 

[JStates]

You make it sound so secret and esoteric. I looked up a website that promotes the idea.

The idea, in this interpretation, is that 'with her' means they were together.

Genesis 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

This doesn't look like anything that is secret in the Hebrew and cannot come through in translation. IF we assume that he was with her when she ate, maybe he was letting her try it first. But if he was off tending the garden while she was talking to the serpent, she ate, and then she was with him and then went and found him and was with him and gave him a bite, then it doesn' t apply.

This is speculation, and I don't consider not wanting women to be the source of evil as reason to think I must accept this interpretation, nor do I think seeing this interpretation necessitates seeing women as the source of evil. Traditional Christian interpretation has the Devil falling into sin before Eve, anyway.

Correct, and humanity's sin is ascribed to Adam, not Eve.

 

[Genipher]

good question ....where was Rachel?
If it was me and my intended had got married to my sister I am not sure if I would have then married him as well!

or I would have had a talk with them and got them to do an annulment since they married under false pretences. Unfortunately Jacobs twin brother Esau was already married...Rachel could have matchmaked him with Leah...

Different culture.
Both daughters were obedient to their father and wouldn't have dared to go against his will.

 

[Genipher]

Esau's wives really annoyed Isaac and Rebecca.

And yeah...if you were Rebecca and your sister is about to marry your husband to be...
Wouldn't that sibling rivalry come out like only a family feud could? There would be some hair pulling and claw scratching like there was no tomorrow.

And an annulment wouldn't be possible...her hymen had been broken. Jacob would have had to pay for her (the bride price) regardless of gaining the wife or not.
Marriages were regularly consummated during the wedding party. The groom would toss a bloody rag at the best man standing at the door to show everyone that everything is fine. For the issue of not marrying a true virgin. But he is also supposed to guard the room and make sure that the woman who enters is the intended bride too. (Obviously he didn't do right)

The sibling fights came later, when they argued who would get to have him at night. 😉
And he was so complacent about it. Like, "oh? I'm with you tonight cause you traded your sis a pomegranate? *shrug* Ok."

 

[Lanolin]

Esau's wives really annoyed Isaac and Rebecca.

And yeah...if you were Rebecca and your sister is about to marry your husband to be...
Wouldn't that sibling rivalry come out like only a family feud could? There would be some hair pulling and claw scratching like there was no tomorrow.

And an annulment wouldn't be possible...her hymen had been broken. Jacob would have had to pay for her (the bride price) regardless of gaining the wife or not.
Marriages were regularly consummated during the wedding party. The groom would toss a bloody rag at the best man standing at the door to show everyone that everything is fine. For the issue of not marrying a true virgin. But he is also supposed to guard the room and make sure that the woman who enters is the intended bride too. (Obviously he didn't do right)

thats abit gross who does that now

It was rachel not rebecca. Rebecca was pretty much kidnapped to be Isaacs wife. They just took her and she went with a whole bunch of jewellery and she didnt go back home.

 

[Lanolin]

The sibling fights came later, when they argued who would get to have him at night. 😉
And he was so complacent about it. Like, "oh? I'm with you tonight cause you traded your sis a pomegranate? *shrug* Ok."

didnt they just all sleep together in one bed. Jacob would have been in the middle.

 

[Lanolin]

So I think we established that its actually the mum or dad who chooses the spouse for their son or daughter not God and not the son and daughter. They can say yes or not but its really the parents who want them married off and do the whole matchmking.

eg Ruth was put up to marry Boaz by Naomi who wanted grandchildren.

 

[Lanolin]

You make it sound so secret and esoteric. I looked up a website that promotes the idea.

The idea, in this interpretation, is that 'with her' means they were together.

Genesis 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

This doesn't look like anything that is secret in the Hebrew and cannot come through in translation. IF we assume that he was with her when she ate, maybe he was letting her try it first. But if he was off tending the garden while she was talking to the serpent, she ate, and then she was with him and then went and found him and was with him and gave him a bite, then it doesn' t apply.

This is speculation, and I don't consider not wanting women to be the source of evil as reason to think I must accept this interpretation, nor do I think seeing this interpretation necessitates seeing women as the source of evil. Traditional Christian interpretation has the Devil falling into sin before Eve, anyway.

he wasnt tending the garden... the serpent spoke to Eve and Adam just didnt say anything.

 

[Genipher]

thats abit gross who does that now

It was rachel not rebecca. Rebecca was pretty much kidnapped to be Isaacs wife. They just took her and she went with a whole bunch of jewellery and she didnt go back home.

No. Rebecca wasn't kidnapped , she agreed to go. In fact, her father and brother wanted her to stay 10 days and when Eliezer argued with them, they said they'd bring Rebecca out and ask her what she wanted to do. She came out and said she would go. Genesis 24:58

She probably recognized a good thing when she saw it. A wealthy man wanting to marry her? Who wouldn't accept such an offer in that time era and culture? She'd be set for life!

 

[Genipher]

So I think we established that its actually the mum or dad who chooses the spouse for their son or daughter not God and not the son and daughter. They can say yes or not but its really the parents who want them married off and do the whole matchmking.

eg Ruth was put up to marry Boaz by Naomi who wanted grandchildren.

Ahem. And then you have Sampson who demanded his parents arrange for him to marry the Philistine woman...

 

[Genipher]

didnt they just all sleep together in one bed. Jacob would have been in the middle.

Nope. I'm pretty sure in that culture, in that time, each woman had her own, private tent.
They didn't share a bed.

Even today those that engage in polygamy have separate rooms or, if they're rich enough, separate houses for their multiple wives.
They don't all share the same bed.

And now I'm going to go scrub my mind.
Ew, ew, ew!

 

[Genipher]

didnt they just all sleep together in one bed. Jacob would have been in the middle.

I looked it up. Rachel and Leah each had their own tents. Genesis 31:33

 

[JohnDB]

didnt they just all sleep together in one bed. Jacob would have been in the middle.

No...
Again this is the ANE with radically different customs...it's not like you would think. Jacob was Isaac's son who was Abraham's son. Meaning that he was still filthy rich. He had an entourage, and so did both Rachael and Leah. Sure the scriptures only talk about Jacob and don't mention the entourage...but that's Hebrew writing. Messengers and Emissaries are usually not discussed or mentioned unless they are the story.
Even in the New Testament we have two separate accounts for the "Faith of the Centurion". Luke actually mentions the messenger but Matthew does not. Because in Hebrew writing the messenger is not recognized as being relevant. So he is ignored. (Paper and ink were extremely expensive and not worth the paper)
There's several oddities with Hebrew writing that differ greatly from modern times. Also a lot of different cultural focus than we currently have. People are still people... mostly until in our minds they don't exist or are doubled or something because of an idiom of speech or hyperbole.

 

[JohnDB]

So I think we established that its actually the mum or dad who chooses the spouse for their son or daughter not God and not the son and daughter. They can say yes or not but its really the parents who want them married off and do the whole matchmking.

eg Ruth was put up to marry Boaz by Naomi who wanted grandchildren.

Yes. Naomi was Jewish but in reality Ruth was not. Naomi needed a kinsman redeemer. Ruth couldn't qualify for one without Naomi.

 

[JohnDB]

Nope. I'm pretty sure in that culture, in that time, each woman had her own, private tent.
They didn't share a bed.

Even today those that engage in polygamy have separate rooms or, if they're rich enough, separate houses for their multiple wives.
They don't all share the same bed.

And now I'm going to go scrub my mind.
Ew, ew, ew!

There's that polygamist family who had the show on TV...
There's trouble in that household. Apparently Cody has been playing favorites with one wife. (Robin) He has been practically ignoring his other wives and children.
But when they are together it was obvious who was in charge...the women! Cody was the most hen pecked man I've ever seen. One of the wives is sticking around to provide financially for the others and the kids. But most of the kids are grown these days or almost grown. They still live with their mothers. (Millennials eh?)

One wife left the family...but apparently still keeps in touch with the sister wives.

That lifestyle is something that I would NEVER want. The show is a great look into the lifestyle...but definitely not for me.
It's counter cultural to begin with...then it's just too much work trying to keep up with the spouses and the kids.

 

[presidente]

No. Rebecca wasn't kidnapped , she agreed to go. In fact, her father and brother wanted her to stay 10 days and when Eliezer argued with them, they said they'd bring Rebecca out and ask her what she wanted to do. She came out and said she would go. Genesis 24:58

She probably recognized a good thing when she saw it. A wealthy man wanting to marry her? Who wouldn't accept such an offer in that time era and culture? She'd be set for life!

That could have been part of it and maybe that weighed into Lot's support. But they may have agreed because of God's supernatural work and answered prayer. Marrying cousins off to each other is the norm in some parts of the world, the ideal candidate for a match in some cultures. It probably made sense.

Cousin marriage is not forbidden in the Bible. It was common in the west but fell out of vogue after royal families did it so much they got birth defects and knowledge of genetics developed. I think it fell out of favor in the Abglo realm in the 1800s.

Sorry about mixing up the names.

 

[presidente]

So I think we established that its actually the mum or dad who chooses the spouse for their son or daughter not God and not the son and daughter. They can say yes or not but its really the parents who want them married off and do the whole matchmking.

eg Ruth was put up to marry Boaz by Naomi who wanted grandchildren.

In the OT parents set up both bride and groom or else the man negotiated the marriage with the father except for widows like Abigail.

There is no mention of two people standing before a priest or elder to make vows. That seems to have been a later modification of a Roman preChistian wedding ceremony. Boaz did call in elders of the city as witnesses to his redeeming a deceased relative's estate.

Rachel consented to her wedding. Jewish tradition requires bridal consent, possibly based on examples like this. It would be tough for both bride and groom otherwise.

Marrying your parents' choice might not seem horrific if everyone did it, if people did not grow up watching movies and TV sows against the idea abd romances, and if all you had to go on for looks were 500 cousins in your village instead of images of the most beautiful faces in the world on TV, film, magazines, and the Internet.

 

[presidente]

Yes. Naomi was Jewish but in reality Ruth was not. Naomi needed a kinsman redeemer. Ruth couldn't qualify for one without Naomi.

Does the Pentateuch specify this about foreign brides?