Works

[peldom10]

God will judge our works. Now if our works are the determinant of our salvation, it follows that we are saved by works. But the scriptures say we are saved by Grace not of works.

Our works will determine our rewards.

WOW.........what a stretch.
Are you saying one does not have to repent?.....because of grace.
Are you saying one does not have to be baptized?...because of grace.
Are you saying one need not live a righteous life ...because of grace?

Do you not understand that ......Grace...is the umbrella given to us by God for forgiveness, thru Christs' sacrifice on the cross?

Who said works give us salvation? We are reminded....faith without works is dead.
Works are required as part of God's plan for us.

 

[TMS]

What about the verse in the Bible that says, “The Lord hardened the heart of Pharaoh”? (Exodus 9:12). Did God make Pharaoh stubborn so that He could use him to teach Israel a lesson? Did Pharaoh have no choice whatsoever in whether or not his own heart would be hard? Keep in mind, there are several other verses that indicate Pharaoh hardened his own heart. “Pharaoh hardened his heart at this time also; neither would he let the people go” (Exodus 8:32; see also Exodus 8:15; 9:34; 1 Samuel 6:6). How did Pharaoh’s heart become hardened?

This is laughable since Judas was a "devil" (or demon) from the get-go. Yet Christ chose him since his treachery was already prophesied in Scripture, and was a necessary part of God's plan for Christ to be crucified: Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil? He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve. (John 6:70,71) This was spoken long before the betrayal of Christ by Judas. So Judas was NEVER a true believer -- just a pretender. In any event, this has absolutely no relevance to the matter under discussion.

Have you ever noticed that the same circumstances coming to different people do not always produce the same responses? Think of the warm sun that shines on the earth. If you set a lump of clay and a lump of wax side by side underneath the same beams of light, one would become hard and the other would melt. Pharaoh chose to be like clay when God’s appeals came to the proud ruler; God’s light hardened his heart.

Predestination teaches that God arbitrarily decides who will be saved and who will be lost. In other words, Pharaoh simply would have had no choice but to be lost. It indirectly teaches that the Lord chooses for some people to sin. But in so doing, it makes Him an accessory to sin. Instead of offering to save you from sin, predestination presents a God who stands back and allows you to struggle in sin. This is a dangerous belief because it distorts the compassionate character of a God who poured out all of heaven to save us!

 

[TMS]

WOW.........what a stretch.
Are you saying one does not have to repent?.....because of grace.
Are you saying one does not have to be baptized?...because of grace.
Are you saying one need not live a righteous life ...because of grace?

Do you not understand that ......Grace...is the umbrella given to us by God for forgiveness, thru Christs' sacrifice on the cross?

Who said works give us salvation? We are reminded....faith without works is dead.
Works are required as part of God's plan for us.

Good point i agree...
This has been said and it seems (i might be wrong) but some views are affected by Calvinism, or predestination.

 

[OIC1965]

[QUOTE="TMS, post: 4754752, member: 217057"

Do we confess our sins once and that is it we are saved for ever? No !
If we continue in sin and have no repentance will grace continue to save us?[/QUOTE]

I have studied types and antitypes quite a bit. I am not unfamiliar with the fact that the Old Testament has shadows and types that are fulfilled in the New Testament. As to the two quotes above, I do not hold to these positions. You're preaching to the choir, so to speak.

 

[OIC1965]

WOW.........what a stretch.
Are you saying one does not have to repent?.....because of grace.
Are you saying one does not have to be baptized?...because of grace.
Are you saying one need not live a righteous life ...because of grace?

Do you not understand that ......Grace...is the umbrella given to us by God for forgiveness, thru Christs' sacrifice on the cross?

Who said works give us salvation? We are reminded....faith without works is dead.
Works are required as part of God's plan for us.

Never said any of that. You are boxing shadows. Do you even read my posts.

You said that you are not declared righteous until judgement day. BASED ON WHAT? Why would you have to wait till judgement day to be JUSTIFIED when we are declared righteous on the MERIT OF CHRIST?!!!

Are you saying that God has to WAIT AND SEE if we will perservere before He can declare us righteous?

Do you not know that justification (the act of declaring us righteous) is an act of God that knows the future as well as the past. So even if you say that our justification is based on the work of perservering, God still knows whether we will perservere or not.

Your position is poorly conceived.

 

[TMS]

Are you saying that God has to WAIT AND SEE if we will perservere before He can declare us righteous?

God does know the beginning from the end. Why even let us suffer if the results are known to God?
Because God is on trial too. That might sound bad but the accusations of Satan are that God is not fair and many others.
If the universe was like God and knew all things it would be understandable not to Wait and see.
He is letting things play out so there is no doubt that God is righteous in all His judgements. God does not need to wait and see, but He is letting the universe see if we are faithful so all judgement is without doubt just and righteous.

 

[TMS]

We know that the Bible says, “God is love” and that love does not force love. You cannot force someone to love you. Forced love is rape! God promises that when we freely come to Him, He will never turn us away. Yet it is against the very nature of God to force us to stay with Him if we tire of His kingdom, just as Lucifer grew weary of it. We may trust that when we come to the Lord, we will not be rejected. But we are always free—because of His love—to walk away.

Faithfulness in a marriage requires commitment on the part of both parties.

The security of our salvation could be compared to putting your money into a bank. Lots of banks like to use the word “security” in their title to emphasize that your money is safe with them. The message they want you to believe is, “You can trust us with your cash.”
What would happen if you tried to withdraw $100 and you are told, “You cannot withdraw money from our bank.” You protest but are told, “Look, we promise you that your money is in the bank and is secure; you just can’t take any of it out.” Of course, that’s not security—it’s robbery! Likewise, when you lose your choice to walk away from God, you are no longer freely serving Him. You have become a hostage.

Still, God wants you to be secure in your salvation. “These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God” (1 John 5:13). The condition for knowing you have eternal life is continuing to believe in the name and character of Jesus.

 

[TMS]

We can fall away.
Salvation is not finalized till our probation closes. It can be secured and we can have assurance but while the choice is there we can turn away from salvation.

Consider Jesus’ parable of the sower, which describes the gospel seed being spread on different types of soil. Notice what happens when the truth falls onto one type of heart:
Some fell on stony places, where they did not have much earth; and they immediately sprang up because they had no depth of earth. But when the sun was up they were scorched, and because they had no root they withered away (Matthew 13:5, 6).

Now, if the seed “immediately sprang up,” it means these people welcomed it into their hearts. They believed what they heard, and the seed sprouted. Thus, if it “withered away,” something that was once living had died. That means some people who have received salvation at some point lost it because they did not grow deeper roots in Christ.

A Bible example of someone who was chosen by God and even Spirit-filled, but then fell away, was King Saul. He was not picked through a general election, but was chosen by God. Did the Lord choose Saul to make an example of him and then cast him away? No! God chose this Benjamite because he was the Lord’s choice. At first Saul was filled with the Spirit and even prophesied, but he allowed pride to spring up in his heart, grieved away the Holy Spirit, and then lost his salvation.

Jesus makes it clear in His message to the church of Sardis that if the people did not repent and turn from their bad behaviour, they would lose their salvation. “He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels” (Revelation 3:5).

 

[OIC1965]

God does know the beginning from the end. Why even let us suffer if the results are known to God?
Because God is on trial too. That might sound bad but the accusations of Satan are that God is not fair and many others.
If the universe was like God and knew all things it would be understandable not to Wait and see.
He is letting things play out so there is no doubt that God is righteous in all His judgements. God does not need to wait and see, but He is letting the universe see if we are faithful so all judgement is without doubt just and righteous.

Imputed righteousness is by faith alone. NO works necessary. (Romans 4:1-8) You cannot debate this. It is clearly stated in the text. But faith works because of love.

 

[OIC1965]

We can fall away.
Salvation is not finalized till our probation closes. It can be secured and we can have assurance but while the choice is there we can turn away from salvation.

Consider Jesus’ parable of the sower, which describes the gospel seed being spread on different types of soil. Notice what happens when the truth falls onto one type of heart:
Some fell on stony places, where they did not have much earth; and they immediately sprang up because they had no depth of earth. But when the sun was up they were scorched, and because they had no root they withered away (Matthew 13:5, 6).

Now, if the seed “immediately sprang up,” it means these people welcomed it into their hearts. They believed what they heard, and the seed sprouted. Thus, if it “withered away,” something that was once living had died. That means some people who have received salvation at some point lost it because they did not grow deeper roots in Christ.

A Bible example of someone who was chosen by God and even Spirit-filled, but then fell away, was King Saul. He was not picked through a general election, but was chosen by God. Did the Lord choose Saul to make an example of him and then cast him away? No! God chose this Benjamite because he was the Lord’s choice. At first Saul was filled with the Spirit and even prophesied, but he allowed pride to spring up in his heart, grieved away the Holy Spirit, and then lost his salvation.

Jesus makes it clear in His message to the church of Sardis that if the people did not repent and turn from their bad behaviour, they would lose their salvation. “He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels” (Revelation 3:5).

Let's stick to the original point of disagreement. Where in the Bible does it teach that we need to wait until judgement day to be declared righteous before God?

 

[OIC1965]

God does know the beginning from the end. Why even let us suffer if the results are known to God?
Because God is on trial too. That might sound bad but the accusations of Satan are that God is not fair and many others.
If the universe was like God and knew all things it would be understandable not to Wait and see.
He is letting things play out so there is no doubt that God is righteous in all His judgements. God does not need to wait and see, but He is letting the universe see if we are faithful so all judgement is without doubt just and righteous.

Can you define the verb "justify" for me, as it is used in the context of Romans 3:24-26?

 

[Blik]

Ok, all true. But how many works did you have to do to receive God’s salvation? .

How many times would the Lord have to shake this information into that head of yours? God looks at our faith to determine our salvation, You could give all your money to the poor and tell God to look how good you are, so ask him to save you and it would not work for salvation.

However, what you do because your have faith in what Christ tells you is an entirely different story. This is not works, but an example of faith in Christ. enough to follow him.

 

[OIC1965]

Good point i agree...
This has been said and it seems (i might be wrong) but some views are affected by Calvinism, or predestination.

Sorry Charlie, but I never said anything of the ridiculous things he listed. You know someone has a poor argument when he has to make up stuff that the other side's not saying.

 

[OIC1965]

How many times would the Lord have to shake this information into that head of yours? God looks at our faith to determine our salvation, You could give all your money to the poor and tell God to look how good you are, so ask him to save you and it would not work for salvation.

However, what you do because your have faith in what Christ tells you is an entirely different story. This is not works, but an example of faith in Christ. enough to follow him.

Now that you have stated the obvious, tell me where in the Bible does it say that we have to wait until judgement day to be declared righteous by God. Because that is the point in question.

 

[OIC1965]

WOW.........what a stretch.
Are you saying one does not have to repent?.....because of grace.
Are you saying one does not have to be baptized?...because of grace.
Are you saying one need not live a righteous life ...because of grace?

Do you not understand that ......Grace...is the umbrella given to us by God for forgiveness, thru Christs' sacrifice on the cross?

Who said works give us salvation? We are reminded....faith without works is dead.
Works are required as part of God's plan for us.

Repentance is not a work, it's a response to God's Grace.
Baptism is for BELIEVERS. Believers are already saved per Ephesians 2:8-9, Romans 10:10-13, etc.
We are not saved because we live a righteous life. We live a righteous life because we are saved.

 

[OIC1965]

Who said works give us salvation?

@Peldom, @TMS @Blik

YOU DID.

a. The Bible teaches that we will be judged according to our WORKS. (Revelation 22:12; Matthew 16:27. Etc)
b. You say that we are not saved until judgement day (after we are judged according to our works)
c. That means that you hold works to be the determinant of our salvation.

In addition, the Bible teaches that we already have eternal life and we are already seated with Christ in heavenly places. That seems pretty SAVED to me.

 

[OIC1965]

We can fall away.
Salvation is not finalized till our probation closes. It can be secured and we can have assurance but while the choice is there we can turn away from salvation.

Consider Jesus’ parable of the sower, which describes the gospel seed being spread on different types of soil. Notice what happens when the truth falls onto one type of heart:
Some fell on stony places, where they did not have much earth; and they immediately sprang up because they had no depth of earth. But when the sun was up they were scorched, and because they had no root they withered away (Matthew 13:5, 6).

Now, if the seed “immediately sprang up,” it means these people welcomed it into their hearts. They believed what they heard, and the seed sprouted. Thus, if it “withered away,” something that was once living had died. That means some people who have received salvation at some point lost it because they did not grow deeper roots in Christ.

A Bible example of someone who was chosen by God and even Spirit-filled, but then fell away, was King Saul. He was not picked through a general election, but was chosen by God. Did the Lord choose Saul to make an example of him and then cast him away? No! God chose this Benjamite because he was the Lord’s choice. At first Saul was filled with the Spirit and even prophesied, but he allowed pride to spring up in his heart, grieved away the Holy Spirit, and then lost his salvation.

Jesus makes it clear in His message to the church of Sardis that if the people did not repent and turn from their bad behaviour, they would lose their salvation. “He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels” (Revelation 3:5).

@Peldom, @TMS @Blik

What do you do with the statement "those who God justified, them He also GLORIFIED. (Romans 8:30). What is this saying? It uses proleptic aorists, so you might want to google what a proleptic aorist is, if you don't already know.

 

[peldom10]

Good point i agree...
This has been said and it seems (i might be wrong) but some views are affected by Calvinism, or predestination.

The exact reason one must be outside of denominations and into the Bible. KJV 1611 edition.... suggested.

 

[peldom10]

@Peldom, @TMS @Blik

What do you do with the statement "those who God justified, them He also GLORIFIED. (R.omans 8:30). What is this saying? It uses proleptic aorists, so you might want to google what a proleptic aorist is, if you don't already know

I dont...don't want to know, don't need to know, thanks. I stay with the LJV Bible.

 

[peldom10]

Repentance is not a work, it's a response to God's Grace.
Baptism is for BELIEVERS. Believers are already saved per Ephesians 2:8-9, Romans 10:10-13, etc.
We are not saved because we live a righteous life. We live a righteous life because we are saved.

Wrong.
Wrong and
Wrong.

Not Grace...God's commandments.
If believers are ....S A V E D......(what does ed on a word/past tense mean?)
Born again while on this earth.