Does 1 Thessalonians 4:14-18 Teach Jesus Will Return With Dead Saints Now With Him In Heaven?

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

ewq1938

Well-known member
Oct 18, 2018
4,809
1,229
113
FreeGrace2 said:
We sin BECAUSE of the inherited fallen nature from Adam.

You have missed the whole point.

WHY are we "imperfect"? Do you know? It is because of Adam.
No, it's not. It's because we choose to sin like he choose to sin. A fallen nature was not inherited from Adam and no scripture says such a thing.
 
Jan 31, 2021
8,658
1,064
113
FreeGrace2 said:
We sin BECAUSE of the inherited fallen nature from Adam.

You have missed the whole point.

WHY are we "imperfect"? Do you know? It is because of Adam.
No, it's not. It's because we choose to sin like he choose to sin. A fallen nature was not inherited from Adam and no scripture says such a thing.
Paul blamed Adam in Romans 5. You should read that chapter.
 

Lucy-Pevensie

Senior Member
Dec 20, 2017
9,261
5,618
113
FreeGrace2 said:
We sin BECAUSE of the inherited fallen nature from Adam.

You have missed the whole point.

WHY are we "imperfect"? Do you know? It is because of Adam.

Paul blamed Adam in Romans 5. You should read that chapter.
Coincidentally I've been doing a group study in Romans & today we were on chapters 5-7.
After introducing the subject in Chapter 5, he elaborates on the sinful nature of mankind in some detail in chapters 6-7.
And our continued struggles with it as believers.
 
Jan 31, 2021
8,658
1,064
113
Coincidentally I've been doing a group study in Romans & today we were on chapters 5-7.
After introducing the subject in Chapter 5, he elaborates on the sinful nature of mankind in some detail in chapters 6-7.
And our continued struggles with it as believers.
Does the study indicate whether our sin nature comes from Adam, or from personal sin? iow, does sin cause us to have a sin nature?

Thanks.
 

Lucy-Pevensie

Senior Member
Dec 20, 2017
9,261
5,618
113
Does the study indicate whether our sin nature comes from Adam, or from personal sin? iow, does sin cause us to have a sin nature?

Thanks.
Acts of sin are the individual's personal responsibility but the propensity toward those acts is inherited from Adam
by the whole human race.

Chapter 5 is quite conculsive about our worst inheritance from Adam.
We don't have to perform a sinful act to have an appetite for it. It's a human predisposition.

Chapter 5 uses this language:
"sin entered the world through one man"
"the many died by the trespass of the one man"
" death reigned from the time of Adam"
" by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man"
" one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people"


If one from our generation had been the first to sin, his sin wouldn't have passed the nature to sin on to all the
offspring of mankind. Only his own descendants would be effected.
 
Jan 31, 2021
8,658
1,064
113
FreeGrace2 said:
Does the study indicate whether our sin nature comes from Adam, or from personal sin? iow, does sin cause us to have a sin nature?

Thanks.
Acts of sin are the individual's personal responsibility but the propensity toward those acts is inherited from Adam by the whole human race.

Bingo! Excellent response.


Chapter 5 is quite conculsive about our worst inheritance from Adam.
We don't have to perform a sinful act to have an appetite for it. It's a human predisposition.
Chapter 5 uses this language:
"sin entered the world through one man"
"the many died by the trespass of the one man"
" death reigned from the time of Adam"
" by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man"
" one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people"

Amen!
 

TheLearner

Well-known member
Jan 14, 2019
7,856
1,447
113
67
Brighton, MI
Before the question can be answered, we must first understand the importance of “Hebrew Chiastic Structure”. A “chiasm” is a form of Hebrew poetry where not words, but ideas, are rhymed. It's a literary device in which the ideas are arranged as “ABXBA”, “ABBA”, “ABAB”, or other variations. Chiasms are extremely important to hermeneutics because they are “guideposts” which help us to determine if our interpretations are on track or way off course because correct interpretations leave the chiasms intact, while incorrect interpretations destroy them. Many false ideas, especially eschatological ideas, stem from Bible "scholars" ignoring chiasms within the texts. Here are two examples of a chiasm from Psalms 33, the entirely of which is one chiasm after another:

Psalms 33:6 KJV
A. Word of the Lord
B. Heavens
B. Host of them
A. Breath of His mouth


Psalms 33:9 KJV
A. He spake
B. it was done
A. He commanded
B. it stood fast

That said, now let's examine 1 Thessalonians 4:14 KJV:
“For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus
will God bring with Him”.

Can you recognize the chiasm? Here it is:
A. Jesus died (death)
B. rose again (resurrection)
A. sleep in Jesus (death)
B. will God bring forth from death (resurrection)


How do we know “bring” refers to “bring forth from death” and not “bring from heaven back to Earth”? Because this interpretation leaves the chiasm intact (“ABAB”) while the popular yet erroneous interpretation “bring from heaven back to Earth” destroys the chiasm (“ABA--”).

Another reason we know is that the emphasis of the entire passage of 1 Thessalonians 4:14-18 KJV focuses on the fate of the dead saints, not the Second Coming. Paul's message here is to the bereaved Thessalonian saints who are concerned about what happened to their dearly departed loved ones, and with it he assures them that they are sleeping in Jesus, they will wake at the sound of Lord's shout, voice, and trumpet and rise forth from death, and they will be caught up to Jesus in the clouds first, followed by “we that are alive and remain”.

Finally, the very last thing Paul told these bereaved Thessalonians saints is that they were to “comfort one another with these words”, but with what words? That the dead are in heaven? No! With words of the resurrection. Paul wants all Christians to know that just as surely as God brought Jesus forth from the dead, so God will bring the sleeping saints forth from death "with Him", or "in like manner".
I have a Jewish background and there is no chiasm there. The text clearly says,

"
13 Brothers and sisters, we want you to know about those who have died. We don’t want you to be sad like other people—those who have no hope. 14 We believe that Jesus died, but we also believe that he rose again. So we believe that God will raise to life through Jesus any who have died and bring them together with him when he comes.

15 What we tell you now is the Lord’s own message. Those of us who are still living when the Lord comes again will join him, but not before those who have already died. 16 The Lord himself will come down from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet call of God. And the people who have died and were in Christ will rise first. 17 After that we who are still alive at that time will be gathered up with those who have died. We will be taken up in the clouds and meet the Lord in the air. And we will be with the Lord forever. 18 So encourage each other with these words."

The I Thess 4 does not say, anyone is coming with him from Heaven. But, these two texts do.

Jude 1:14
And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

1 Thessalonians 3:13
To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.
 

TheLearner

Well-known member
Jan 14, 2019
7,856
1,447
113
67
Brighton, MI
The chiasm in 1 Thessalonians 4 would be as follows wouldn't it:

A. Jesus died (death)​
B. rose again (resurrection)​
B. will God bring forth from death (resurrection)​
A. sleep in Jesus (death)​
https://www.gotquestions.org/chiasm-chiastic.html
https://www.compellingtruth.org/antithetical-parallelism.html
https://www.compellingtruth.org/synthetic-parallelism.html

"
CHIASMUS IN THE SCRIPTURES
1. The concept is quite easy but it does challenge some assumptions we make about how we should read Scripture. Chiasmus refers to a sequence of elements of a sentence or verse, paragraph, chapter or even book which are then repeated and developed – but in reverse order. It is sometimes called introverted parallelism. It is best understood through examples. Jesus said, “The sabbath was made for man, not man for the sabbath”. You can see “sabbath” and “man” are repeated in the sentence but in reverse order. This gives symmetry to the sentence which succinctly makes the point memorable.

2. If we give the elements of the sentence a marker to show the parallels – say “sabbath” is A and “man” is B – we can represent the sentence “The sabbath (A) was made for man (B), not man (B’) for the sabbath (A’)” as ABB’A’. The reversal of the AB order – to B’A’ – is what makes this a chiasm.

3. We can see a slightly more complex pattern in Genesis 9:6 ESV which follows the word order in the Hebrew text. (If you look at the KJV for this verse it changes the word order – “man’s blood” instead of “blood of man” and thereby slightly obscures the precision of the chiasm). So the pattern, displayed below, is ABCC’B’A’.

(A) Whoever sheds
(B) the blood
(C) of man
(C’) by man
(B’) shall his blood
(A’) be shed

4. When the pattern has a single central clause such as ABCB’A’. The effect of this pattern is to give prominence to the central statement, which can therefore be the main point of the passage, or at least considered as the pivot or turning point of the passage. Take for example an ABCB’A’ chiasm in John 4.

A (23a) But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth:

B (23b) for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

C (24a) God is a Spirit:

B’ (24b) and they that worship him

A’ (24c) must worship him in spirit and in truth.

5. When this passage in John 4:23-24 is read the repetition is immediately apparent. You may already have these key phrases underlined because they are echoes of the words of Joshua when he came to Shechem. But if you had these marked in you might have wondered why the repetition is there because the logic is not so easy to follow. This is where we need to readjust our approach. The linear logic we are used to in our culture, where points are made in one direction leading to a conclusion at the end of the line, is not the logic of chiastic passages. The main point is at the centre – God is a Spirit, and from this follows why we should worship Him in spirit.

6. Another even more complex but lovely pattern can be found in 1 Peter 1:23-25.

A (23a) Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God,

B (23b) which liveth and abideth for ever.

C (24a) For all flesh is as grass,

D (24b) and all the glory of man as the flower of grass.

C’ (24c) The grass withereth,

D’ (24d) and the flower thereof falleth away:

B’ (25a) But the word of the Lord endureth for ever.

A’ (25b) And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.

7. What this chiastic structure, as others, invites us to do is to view the passage as a whole. The pairs of clauses i.e. AA’, BB’, should be compared or contrasted. They make sense if we were to read the two together. So the sense of AA’ is that we are born again by receiving the Word of God which comes to us through the preaching of the Gospel – simple! The components of the next pair BB’ are almost identical in thought and give due emphasis to the eternal purpose of God revealed in the Gospel. In this case the middle section is a four line passage which has a regular parallelism – CDC’D’. The subject is grass then flower, grass then flower. Looking at the passage as a whole it presents us with the thought of our fleeting mortality at the centre, wrapped around by the message of the hope of eternal life through the Gospel.

8. So how common are chiastic structures? The academic study of chiasmus in modern times can be dated to the work of Nils Wilhelm Lund who published articles in 1930 and 1931 and then a book entitled “Chiasmus in the New Testament” in 1942."
https://www.chiasmusxchange.com/explanatory-notes/

N.T. was written in Greek, not Hebrew.
 

TheLearner

Well-known member
Jan 14, 2019
7,856
1,447
113
67
Brighton, MI
According to the KJV, it's ABAB. But, if you prefer ABBA, I won't argue that. My beef is with those who claim it's "ABB--" by making "bring" refer to literal, lateral movement across the universe rather than what it is: elevation from the state of death to life. Totally destroys the chiasm, which is acceptable to those who don't care about consistent, sound hermeneutics.

13 Brothers and sisters, we want you to know about those who have died. We don’t want you to be sad like other people—those who have no hope. 14 We believe that Jesus died, but we also believe that he rose again. So we believe that God will raise to life through Jesus any who have died and bring them together with him when he comes.

15 What we tell you now is the Lord’s own message. Those of us who are still living when the Lord comes again will join him, but not before those who have already died. 16 The Lord himself will come down from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet call of God. And the people who have died and were in Christ will rise first. 17 After that we who are still alive at that time will be gathered up with those who have died. We will be taken up in the clouds and meet the Lord in the air. And we will be with the Lord forever. 18 So encourage each other with these words.
 

TheLearner

Well-known member
Jan 14, 2019
7,856
1,447
113
67
Brighton, MI
You're free to deny the chiasm all you want, but Paul is a Hebrew and utilized chiasms all the time, as Hebrew writers did constantly in their literary works. It's "ABAB", not "ABA--"

Solomon, the wisest man who ever lived, plainly says "the dead know not anything" which includes the glorious presence of God in the heavenly courts. They'll continue to not know anything until the resurrection.
2 Cor 11:31 The God and Father of the Lord Jesus, he who is blessed forever
 

TheLearner

Well-known member
Jan 14, 2019
7,856
1,447
113
67
Brighton, MI
The body does not sleep...it returns to dust.
That interjection serves no purpose to understand the main point.
Matthew 27:51-53
Easy-to-Read Version
51 When Jesus died, the curtain in the Temple was torn into two pieces. The tear started at the top and tore all the way to the bottom. Also, the earth shook and rocks were broken. 52 The graves opened, and many of God’s people who had died were raised from death. 53 They came out of the graves. And after Jesus was raised from death, they went into the holy city, and many people saw them.

Luke 20:37
Easy-to-Read Version
37 Moses clearly showed that people are raised from death. When Moses wrote about the burning bush,[a] he said that the Lord is ‘the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob



Matthew 22:32
King James Version
32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.
 

ewq1938

Well-known member
Oct 18, 2018
4,809
1,229
113
FreeGrace2 said:
We sin BECAUSE of the inherited fallen nature from Adam.

You have missed the whole point.

WHY are we "imperfect"? Do you know? It is because of Adam.

Paul blamed Adam in Romans 5. You should read that chapter.

I have. He doesn't say what you claim he says.


Romans 5:12 Therefore as sin came into the world through one man and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all men sinned

Take note that the above verse is of course correct but this is what many people think it says:

"Therefore as sin came into the world through one man and death through sin, and so SIN spread to all men because all men sinned"

That misreading/eisegesis is the basis for the doctrine that Adam has passed down his SIN to all of us but of course that is not what the verse says. Death is what is passed down to us, and of course that is only because we also sin, "so death spread to all men because all men sinned"

So death is only spread to those who sin, and of course all above the age of accountability have sinned.

Adam's sin is not spread to others making original sin/inherited sin incorrect because that is not what Paul teaches.
Death is spread, but only to those that have sinned.

So a baby is born without Adam's sin. When the child reaches the age of accountability and then sins, then a spiritual death comes to them and the only way to remove it is to be forgiven and be born again.
 
Aug 3, 2019
3,744
507
113
I thought you HAD BEEN SAYING when the body dies the soul dies.
Well, that's what Scripture teaches, friend :) The Soul, which exists as a consequence of the union of the Body and the Breath of Life, can no more continue to exist when the Breath returns from the Body back to God, than light can continue to exist when the electric current is removed from the bulb. That's what the "Breath of Life" is - God's "life giving principle" that animates the inanimate.

That's why the Second Coming is called the "blessed hope" - because Jesus is coming to bring back into existence righteous Souls who fell asleep in death. It's why Paul said if the dead don't rise, they that are fallen asleep in Jesus are PERISHED - Paul did NOT say they which are fallen asleep in Jesus are good to go, because they're up there having a "hallelujah time" -- he said they are PERISHED if they don't rise.

That's why the Resurrection is not the "celestial fashion show" that so many claim it is, where disembodied "poltergeists" that have been floating around and enjoying all the benefits and joy and ecstasy of heaven get downloaded into a new body on some celestial cosmic supermodel runway.
 
Dec 15, 2021
1,494
216
63
Well, that's what Scripture teaches, friend :) The Soul, which exists as a consequence of the union of the Body and the Breath of Life, can no more continue to exist when the Breath returns from the Body back to God, than light can continue to exist when the electric current is removed from the bulb. That's what the "Breath of Life" is - God's "life giving principle" that animates the inanimate.
NO. THAT IS WHAT YOU teach, not scripture. Here is what Scripture teaches
Matthew 10:27 What I tell you in darkness, that speak ye in light: and what ye hear in the ear, that preach ye upon the housetops.
28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

that is what scripture teaches.

Scripture also teaches Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.


THEN YOU YOURSELF TAKE WHAT IS TOLD US THERE, AND WITH SOME CONJECTURE FROM YOU

YOU THEN COME UP WITH

"The Soul, which exists as a consequence of the union of the Body and the Breath of Life, can no more continue to exist when the Breath returns from the Body back to God, than light can continue to exist when the electric current is removed from the bulb"


AND THEN YOU PUT FORTH WHAT WAS CONCLUDED AS ONE OF GODS TRUTHES and THEN ARGUE AGAINST WHAT IS TRULY WRITTEN BY THAT.



IF I AM INCORRECT, then please show me THE SCRIPTURE FOR "The Soul,....."

WHICH OF COURSE RENDERS NULL AND VOID

28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear Him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.


God doesn't state WITHOUT THAT DUST OF THE EARTH THE soul ceases to exist DOES HE?
 
Aug 3, 2019
3,744
507
113
13 Brothers and sisters, we want you to know about those who have died. We don’t want you to be sad like other people—those who have no hope. 14 We believe that Jesus died, but we also believe that he rose again. So we believe that God will raise to life through Jesus any who have died and bring them together with him when he comes.

15 What we tell you now is the Lord’s own message. Those of us who are still living when the Lord comes again will join him, but not before those who have already died. 16 The Lord himself will come down from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet call of God. And the people who have died and were in Christ will rise first. 17 After that we who are still alive at that time will be gathered up with those who have died. We will be taken up in the clouds and meet the Lord in the air. And we will be with the Lord forever. 18 So encourage each other with these words.
Your interpretation not only destroys the chiasm, but contradicts Scripture.
 
Aug 3, 2019
3,744
507
113
Matthew 27:51-53
Easy-to-Read Version
51 When Jesus died, the curtain in the Temple was torn into two pieces. The tear started at the top and tore all the way to the bottom. Also, the earth shook and rocks were broken. 52 The graves opened, and many of God’s people who had died were raised from death. 53 They came out of the graves. And after Jesus was raised from death, they went into the holy city, and many people saw them.

Luke 20:37
Easy-to-Read Version
37 Moses clearly showed that people are raised from death. When Moses wrote about the burning bush,[a] he said that the Lord is ‘the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob



Matthew 22:32
King James Version
32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.
"...though he die, he SHALL live" in the future at the resurrection.
 
Aug 3, 2019
3,744
507
113
NO. THAT IS WHAT YOU teach, not scripture. Here is what Scripture teaches
Matthew 10:27 What I tell you in darkness, that speak ye in light: and what ye hear in the ear, that preach ye upon the housetops.
28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
I agree the soul will be destroyed in hell...it is YOU who teach that the soul is maintained in an everlasting but wretched existence.