Doctrine of Unconditional Election

[reneweddaybyday]

As you've quoted in the above verse: BE SURE TO ALL THE SEED

I did not emphasize those words ... I emphasized the words faith of Abraham.

I believe Abraham had faith. interesting that you read verses which read "faith of Christ" and use those verses as proof that no one has faith in and of themselves ... that their faith is really Christ's faith based on verses with the words "faith of Christ".

But when you read "faith of Abraham" in Scripture, you still claim nope, "faith of Christ".

a singular faith that came from God

Ephesians 4:5 tells us there is only one faith ... and of course faith came from God as He is the One Who created, formed, made mankind.

various types of beliefs. But faith in Christ is the only important and significant faith.

There is only one faith ...

Ephesians 4:

4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

6 One God and Father of all


Some folks place their faith in lies ... that is why the issue is not do you have faith. The issue is the Object of our faith. When the Object of our faith is the Lord Jesus Christ and God the Father, the Creator of the heavens and the earth, God works within us to strengthen our faith. However, when we place our faith in lesser objects, sometimes God strengthens that unbelief to the point where folks become reprobate ... with hearts so hardened they are vicious in their attacks on all that is godly and attacks on believers. sad really ...

faith itself, is a work

Not according to Romans 4:

2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it [Abraham's faith] was counted unto him for righteousness.

4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

faith was reckoned to Abraham

nope ... righteousness was reckoned to Abraham:

Romans 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it [Abraham's faith] was counted unto him for righteousness.

Works are central to faith, and therefore faith IS a work.

Not according to Romans 4.

Your belief that "faith IS a work" does not line up with Scripture. You need to align your faith to what is written in Scripture.

I am in agreement that when we hear God's Word and believe it, our actions will flow from that. In other words, when God tells us to not steal and we believe that truth, our actions will follow and we will not steal.

Just as Abraham, when he heard God's Word in Gen 17:10, Abraham believed God ... Abraham's actions flowed from that belief and Abraham then circumcised his whole household (Gen 17:23).

This is because the promise would then be dependent upon factors outside of God. Consequently, it had to have been Christ's faith that was the faith counted to Abraham - hope that was clear.

what is clear is that you and I are not in agreement on this point. it's sad that you do not believe you have faith ... Faith is not works ... our actions flow from faith.

 

[brightfame52]

I've never argued against "unconditional election". Of course it is unconditional. It is God's choice, for heaven sake.

But, what you STILL HAVEN'T done is show ANY verse that clearly shows that election is to salvation. None. Why is that?

You dont believe in unconditional election to salvation which is the truth of scripture. I have witnessed to that, and others. You flat out deny it scoffing it as mere calvinism !

 

[FreeGrace2]

You dont believe in unconditional election to salvation

Because I've seen NO VERSES that show that election is to salvation. And you haven't been helpful in sharing any.

I will only believe that IF you can show a verse that shows election is to salvation.

which is the truth of scripture.

If it were, please show at least 1 verse that shows that election is for salvation.

I have witnessed to that, and others.

Well, if your memory is a bit rusty about what you have witnessed, maybe you could contact one of the "others" and ask them for verses that show that election is to salvation.

You flat out deny it scoffing it as mere calvinism !

It is mere calvinism. Unless you can show me a verse that shows election is to salvation, there is NO REASON to believe it.

 

[rogerg]

It is mere calvinism. Unless you can show me a verse that shows election is to salvation, there is NO REASON to believe it.

Whoa, now that's really arrogant! Do you somehow think you have the right to abrogate the rules the Bible has set-forth for its own interpretation and replace them with rules of your own making? Really? That is probably why your conclusions are usually so wrong. I would suggest to brightfame52 (not that he needs it), to ignore your absurd challenge as by responding to it would place him in violation of the Bible.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

as by responding to it would place him in violation of the Bible.

asking for Scripture which supports assertions made by brightfame52 would not place brightfame52 "in violation of the Bible".

 

[rogerg]

asking for Scripture which supports assertions made by brightfame52 would not place brightfame52 "in violation of the Bible".

Yes, it does. So then, you don't know the biblical rules for interpretation either?

 

[rogerg]

asking for Scripture which supports assertions made by brightfame52 would not place brightfame52 "in violation of the Bible".

Let me be clear. If brightframe52 tried to answer FreeGrace2 by using the same anti-biblical criteria established by FreeGrace2's challenge, then by doing so would reflect on brightframe52. I think brightfame52 knows too much about the Bible to do that. The error is FreeGrace2's challenge. Anyone who attempts to respond to it also gets dragged into Freegrace2 error.

 

[Nehemiah6]

I think brightfame52 knows too much about the Bible to do that

Really? Then why does he continue to promote a false gospel (just as you do)?

 

[rogerg]

Really? Then why does he continue to promote a false gospel (just as you do)?

Another absurd comment. There must be a full moon out tonight

 

[Nehemiah6]

Another absurd comment. There must be a full moon out tonight

The absurdity lies in the fact that God offers salvation to all humanity, but some delusional people think that Christ died only for a handful!

 

[reneweddaybyday]

you don't know the biblical rules for interpretation

2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Exegesis and eisegesis are two conflicting approaches in Bible study. Exegesis is the exposition or explanation of a text based on a careful, objective analysis. The word exegesis literally means “to lead out of.” That means that the interpreter is led to his conclusions by following the text.​

​

The opposite approach to Scripture is eisegesis, which is the interpretation of a passage based on a subjective, non-analytical reading. The word eisegesis literally means “to lead into,” which means the interpreter injects his own ideas into the text, making it mean whatever he wants.​

​

Obviously, only exegesis does justice to the text. Eisegesis is a mishandling of the text and often leads to a misinterpretation. Exegesis is concerned with discovering the true meaning of the text, respecting its grammar, syntax, and setting. Eisegesis is concerned only with making a point, even at the expense of the meaning of words.​

https://www.gotquestions.org/exegesis-eisegesis.html​

Then there's a little issue concerning context:

Context = The context of an idea or event is the general situation that relates to it, and which helps it to be understood​

(https://www.collinsdictionary.com/us/dictionary/english/context)​

​

If a statement or remark is quoted out of context, the circumstances in which it was said are not correctly reported, so that it seems to mean something different from the meaning that was intended ​

(https://www.collinsdictionary.com/us/dictionary/english/out-of-context)​

There is a reason neither brightfame52 nor you can provide the Scripture requested by FreeGrace2 ... if you had even one verse, you'd post it ... you know it, brightfame52 knows it, FreeGrace2 knows it ... post the verse, rogerg.

There is also a reason brightfame52 rips verses out of the context within which the verse sits and then states that his dogmatic commentary is truth. When brightfame52's "truth" is held under the light of Scripture, flaws are revealed, then ignored, and the person who revealed the flaws in brightfame52's rhetoric is ignored.



Here is just one request (of many, many requests for just one verse):

I've never argued against "unconditional election". Of course it is unconditional. It is God's choice, for heaven sake.

But, what you STILL HAVEN'T done is show ANY verse that clearly shows that election is to salvation. None. Why is that?

Just post the verse requested by FreeGrace2.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

using the same anti-biblical criteria established by FreeGrace2's challenge

asking for Scriptural support is not "anti-biblical criteria".

asking for Scriptural support is Scriptural ...

I think brightfame52 knows too much about the Bible

sad to say whatever brightfame52 "knows to much about" ... it's not "the Bible".

 

[brightfame52]

Because I've seen NO VERSES that show that election is to salvation. And you haven't been helpful in sharing any.

I will only believe that IF you can show a verse that shows election is to salvation.


If it were, please show at least 1 verse that shows that election is for salvation.


Well, if your memory is a bit rusty about what you have witnessed, maybe you could contact one of the "others" and ask them for verses that show that election is to salvation.


It is mere calvinism. Unless you can show me a verse that shows election is to salvation, there is NO REASON to believe it.

It doesnt matter what you see, its what scripture teaches that matters. You have been witnessed the truth and you scoff it and call it calvinism, and say it doesnt exist like you doing now, by saying you dont see unconditional election to salvation !

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
It is mere calvinism. Unless you can show me a verse that shows election is to salvation, there is NO REASON to believe it.

Whoa, now that's really arrogant!

How is asking for evidence for a belief or doctrine being arrogant?? If you want to teach biblical doctrine, you'd better have clear evidence for what you are teaching, or there is NO REASON to believe it.

That's not arrogant. It's smart.

Do you somehow think you have the right to abrogate the rules the Bible has set-forth for its own interpretation and replace them with rules of your own making? Really?

You mean there are doctrine that the Bible simply didn't think of including in it? Really? Are you serious.

That is probably why your conclusions are usually so wrong.

That is so funny. I have already proved my view of what election is for. It's bf52 who hasn't yet provided ANY verse to support his opinions, the opinions of calvinists. Maybe you can help him out a bit.

[QUOTE[I would suggest to brightfame52 (not that he needs it), to ignore your absurd challenge as by responding to it would place him in violation of the Bible.[/QUOTE]
Could you explain what you mean by violating the Bible when I simply ask for evidence?

 

[FreeGrace2]

Yes, it does. So then, you don't know the biblical rules for interpretation either?

Could you explain them? Thanks.

But, your resistance to providing evidence for a doctrine that you believe more likely suggests that you simply don't have any verses to support your theory.

So, either provide a verse or 2, or just admit that your doctrine doesn't have any evidence in the Bible.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Let me be clear. If brightframe52 tried to answer FreeGrace2 by using the same anti-biblical criteria established by FreeGrace2's challenge, then by doing so would reflect on brightframe52.

So again, just to be clear, you really think that asking for evidence from the Bible about a supposed biblical doctine is somehow an "anti-biblical criteria"? You've got to be kidding.

I think brightfame52 knows too much about the Bible to do that.

If the Bible did teach that election was to salvation, then there WOULD BE VERSES that say so. Since he has NOT provided any verses, either:
1. there aren't any such verses, or
2. he really doesn't know very much about the Bible, in contradiction to your claim.

The error is FreeGrace2's challenge.

It is the height of ludicrousness to claim that asking for evidence for a biblical doctrine is an error.

In fact, your supposed defeinse of bf52 is simply an attempt to cover the FACT that the Bible doesn't teach that election is to salvation, because NEITHER of you can provide ANY such verses.

Anyone who attempts to respond to it also gets dragged into Freegrace2 error.

This just proves how much error there is in calvinism.

You don't have supporting verses to your doctrine, so you try to cover that FACT up by claiming that asking for evidence is an error.

Thank you for your transparency. I sure hope a lot of believers are following this thread and can therefore see for themselves just how wrong the calvinistic doctrine of election is.

 

[FreeGrace2]

The absurdity lies in the fact that God offers salvation to all humanity, but some delusional people think that Christ died only for a handful!

But Titus 2:11 actually says that the grace of God offers salvation to everyone. I believe that.

 

[FreeGrace2]

It doesnt matter what you see, its what scripture teaches that matters.

And that is what I'm asking for. WHERE does the Bible teach that election is for salvation?

You have been witnessed the truth and you scoff it and call it calvinism,

You haven't even tried to provide verses that support your view, so how about waiting until you actually give me the opportunity to see the verses that you believe teach what you believe.

and say it doesnt exist like you doing now, by saying you dont see unconditional election to salvation !

All you need to do is provide the evidence to convince me.

So, why haven't you even tried to convince me? All you do is repeat your belief but provide no verses that support your claims.

 

[ChristianTonyB]

This has probably already been said, but some members' claims about predestination and election need to be balanced by the implication in the Lord's utterance, "for many are called, but few are chosen (selected, elected)". We have been fortunate that our souls were given life in a period predestined to be supported by a new covenant, not one of adherence to religious laws and observances, but one of salvation through faith in the Son of God, and that faith being a gift to us from God that none of us has deserved to receive, but a gift handed out nonetheless, and it fashioned by the gracious love and compassion of the One and Only True God, our Creator. It really is as simple as that. However, that is phase 1... phase 2 is our walk through the metaphorical desert... do we have what it takes to survive that and remain loyal to Him Who called us. If we get caught up in distracting arguments about theology and words, this will not help us survive the desert. Do we want to survive the desert.... if so then let us strive to develop chaste behaviour, a Christ like nature, and in so doing effectively ditch an argumentative spirit and any other spirit that is alien to the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Grandpa]

Romans 8 Explains that election is to salvation.

Romans 8:24-33
24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.
26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.


If Election is NOT to Salvation then those other things listed are ONLY for the Elect and not for YOUR "generally" saved.

All things DON'T work together for good for those "generally" saved.

The "generally" saved are not conformed to the Image of Christ.

The "generally" saved are not justified or glorified.


That would be absolutely absurd. Garbage theology.