The False Teaching (& Truth) of what happens at the Rapture.

[kleronomos]

The Body of Christ, however has previously been caught away to rule with the Lord n His own throne, (Rev. 3: 21) where they will judge the world system and fallen angels. (1 Cor. 6: 2 & 3) And that is before the beginning of the trib.

Revelation 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.



John 3:16 Hereby perceive we the love of God, because He laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren. 17 But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him? 18 My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.

YES, THERE IS VERSE, AFTER VERSE, AFTER VERSE THAT SCREAMS PRE TRIB IS APOSTASY. IT GOES AGAINST WHAT WE ARE TOLD TO FEEL, TO BE, TO DO. IT GOES AGAINST THE COMMANDS WE ARE GIVEN BY THE VERY WORDS OF GOD THEMSELVES. IT GOES AGAINST ALL THE EXAMPLES WE ARE TOLD TO FOLLOW. IT GOES AGAINST WHAT IS EASILY SEEN AS RIGHT AND JUST.


12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

WHERE IS THE REJOICE YOU OF THE 'RAPTURE'? AGAIN A PERFECT PLACE IN WHICH TO INSERT A TIDBIT OF INFO AND IT IS AS EMPTY AS THE DOCTRINE IS.

13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

The sons of God/Jacob/Israel/the bride/the body of Christ/Christians/New Creatures/the Saved/the church/the Called/the Chosen/Gods elect/the elect/ONE BODY, many members/all made one/ONE SPIRIT/

Certainly no need to 'persecute JEWS' for this, as they don't believe in the 'man child' Christ.

14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

WHY WOULD SHE NEED TO BE NOURISHED FROM THE FACE OF THE SERPENT FOR THE FIRST 3 1/2 YEARS IF SHE IS IN HEAVEN?

15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.

Again, what would be the point in casting anything against the Jews who don't believe the Messiah has come. This could ONLY be after the SAVED, the church, believers in Christ,

16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.

BUT

17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

The church, 'falling away or departure or apostasy' as they have become harlots and whores and unfaithful to the TRUE GOD because they are being deceived and soon will be with child because of the buying and selling and worshipping the image taking the mark of the beast LEAVING ONLY THE REMNANT WHO DO HAVE GODS TRUTH.



As for 'judging' FALLEN ANGELS that won't be happening EVER. The only angels judged will be those who return with Christ and the men of the world raised up or changed.

2 Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.

3 And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.

4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, [...] for the accuser of our brethren is cast down

Who is it that you believe is "saying" this ^ (in heaven)?




[for the readers: this ^ point in time is MID-TRIB, when there are yet remaining "1260 days" until Christ's RETURN to the earth in Rev19; In this scene, "Satan and his angels" are judged... "cast down [unto the earth]"... to be limited to that sphere until the END of the Trib yrs conclude...]

 

[Absolutely]

Absolutely said:
Exactly.
All this time in the debate you do not know the verses or even care that you are omitting them.

That goes for most postribs.

I KNOW your doctrine.
You guys guess at ours.
Why?
Because you will not take the time to understand the doctrine.

It boils down to " caring". If you guys cared , you would learn what you are up against.
Instead you just guess at it.

That'll be the day.

None of you get it.
In order to prove a challenge, or claim, one must address the dynamic.

Instead you guys PRETEND there are no verses.
....even though we post them over and over.
That is dishonest.
No doubt about it
So no meaningful discussion results.

 

[Absolutely]

Why would I admit to such stupidity?

The martyrs are what is "only a segment" of the ONE resurrection of the saved. It seems you STILL don't believe that there will be just ONE resurrection for the saved. Why is that? I've shared a number of verses that say exactly that!!


Maybe you just can't grasp the concept here, but I'm not omitting anything. Rev 14 is a SUMMARY of what's coming. You want to believe it is sequential in Revelation, but it can't be, but only if you actually believe the verses that I've shown that SAY that there is ONE resurrection for the saved and one for the unsaved.


Oh, Lordy! How sad. You don't even have a verse that shows your pretrib rapture theory. You haven't even started to think through your own theology.


I don't think you do. You keep making way off the wall statements and claims about my position, which are all totally wrong, as I keep pointing out.


I'm not interested in your errors. I only show the truth of Scripture. it's up to you to believe what the Bible says.


OK, continue your very erroneous mistake of thinking that Rev 14 is sequential, when it isn't.


Actually, and no offense, but it seems you really don't get much. What with all your erroneous comments about what I believe.

Straight up question for you:

How many events of resurrection for the saved are there in Scripture?

If you believe more than 1, please explain WHEN each one occurs and provide Scripture to back your claim up.

Thanks.

"""Maybe you just can't grasp the concept here, but I'm not omitting anything. Rev 14 is a SUMMARY of what's coming. You want to believe it is sequential in Revelation, but it can't be, but only if you actually believe the verses that I've shown that SAY that there is ONE resurrection for the saved and one for the unsaved."""
Firstfruit Jews.
That makes several times you OMITTED IT.

Jesus gathers WITH a sickle.
Sitting on a cloud.

That is neither the rapture nor the second coming on horses.

Reframing revelation is dangerous.
That is EXACTLY what you are doing..

I thank God i can just read it and be blessed.

 

[Absolutely]

Error alert!!! The ONLY "firstfruits" is Jesus Christ Himself. 1 Cor 15:23 - But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

If you think there can be more than 1 "firstfruits", there is no reason to continue any discussion with you. "Firstfruits" means exactly what it says.

Acts 26:23 - that the Messiah would suffer and, as the first to rise from the dead, would bring the message of light to his own people and to the Gentiles.”

This refers to receiving a glorified (imperishable) body. Jesus WAS the first. And the, per 1 Cor 15:23, ALL believers get theirs, "when He comes" an OBVIOUS reference to the Second Advent, which is AT THE END OF THE TRIBULATION.


You have to actually reject Scripture to believe what you believe.


Back to ya.


You keep making 2 mistakes:
1. you reject the clear verses that have been shared proving there is just one resurrection for the saved, and it occurs at the Second Advent.
2. you have to ADD to Scripture because Scripture DOESN'T SAY what you claim about a pretrib rapture.

the innumerable number in heaven are resurrected martyrs.

That alone causes insurmountable hurdles in your model..

also....We dont know how the 144k got to heaven DURING THE TRIB.
(Could also be resurrected martyrs.)

You can not explain any of it.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

I thought everyone who posts in this thread already knows the sequence. Those who don't know the sequence need to read 1 Thess 4.

Why should I include what should be common knowledge for anyone who posts in this thread?

Well, my thought is, BECAUSE you'd said this:

Wrong again! The Bride is gathered IN heaven in Rev 19. And "when He comes" the remnant of living believers are included.

What does that look like, to you? (how does what you put ^ , get fleshed out [in your view]?)




Coz... it almost sounds as though you are saying that "they that ARE Christ's AT HIS COMING" refers only to the "STILL-LIVING" saints at the time. To me, those particular folks do not NEED to be "RESURRECTED" [which is what 1Cor15:23 is speaking on the Subject of], but *you* are saying they DO need to be.

My emphasis here is in showing that there will be just ONE resurrection (which obviously) includes the living believers also receiving a glorified body. So the whole point is the properly place that single resurrection on the timeline of history.

I disagree that "RESURRECTION" speaks to anything but [being defined as] "to stand AGAIN [on the earth, after having physically DIED]"

(except in the case where a certain thing is LIKENED UNTO "a resurrection," like we see in Ezek37:12-14,20-23 (the "dry bones" prophecy) where Israel is brought up "out of the graveyard of nations, WHERE SCATTERED" [parallel Rom11:15[25,27]; Dan12:1-4,10; Isa26:14-21,esp.v.19; Hos5:14-6:3; etc])

Those who believe in a pretrib rapture (where 1 Thess 4 is their main passage for it) cannot properly place it. Unless they come up with multiple resurrections, but simply call it "one resurrection" with several "parts", or "stages" or whatever.

I DISAGREE that 1Th4 is the main passage showing "PRE-trib"... Viewing merely THIS passage ALONE, apart from OTHER [related] passages, one cannot conclude its "timing" (merely from 1Th4 alone). So, NO. And thus, I do not believe 1Th4 "is their [/our] MAIN passage for it"... hardly. And I think saying such a thing shows a serious lack of attention on your part (that is, not actually "hearing" the "pre-trib" arguments).




1Cor15:23 "[re: resurrection] but EACH [G1538 - https://biblehub.com/greek/1538.htm ] in his own ORDER / RANK" (indicating that there is an "ORDER / RANK" to it, and that there doesn't remain ONLY ONE, at one singular point-in-time)...

...and then further down in this chpt Paul states, "Behold, I SHEW you A MYSTERY... THIS corruptible" and "THIS mortal" ("THIS" specific one; not one that was ALREADY WELL-KNOWN unto all OT saints, like Job [Job19:25-27] and Daniel [Dan12:13] and Martha [Jn11:24]); "Behold, I SHEW you" (means this is a task given to PAUL to disclose... specifically to/for/about "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" [Eph1:20-23 WHEN (as to its existence)], not the OT saints [etc])

 

[kleronomos]

That's why 1 Cor 15:23 rightly described the resurrection of Jesus as "first fruits". He was the very first human being who received a glorified body.

This is an example of how the PRE TRIB doctrine blinds even those who don't believe it, in my opinion anyhow.


THERE IS EVIDENCE OF WHAT king of BODIES THEY WERE RAISED WITH. IT IS WRITTEN. JUST NOT RIGHT THERE.

BUT THAT NEVER allows us to ASSIGN a value or take a value away. Not for any reason ever.

We must GO TO WHAT IS WRITTEN TO FIND THE TRUTH. GODs words specifically tell us they won't always be found all in one place

Isaiah 28:10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:

So to FIND GODS TRUTH, the only TRUTH THAT EXISTS we must go to HIS WORDS. The second we don't do it exactly His way WE STEP OFF THE NARROW PATH THAT LEADS TO HIM.

We have to at all times be on the look out for the one looking to devour us. Many times he tells us straight forward and we still don't believe it. Sometimes it is the bait and switch. Keep your attention on this hand while the other is stabbing you in the back. We are sheep. THEY ARE REALLY GOOD at what they do be that bad or good.

SO our answer is found in 1 Corith 15.

1Corinthians 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

43 It is sown in dishonour; IT IS RAISED IN GLORY, it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

SO WE DO KNOW ABOUT THOSE WHO CAME OUT OF THE GRAVE. AND THE BODY THEY WERE RAISED IN.


AS to the 'FIRST' issue which seems to be holding to a certain doctrine, YOUR ANSWER IN FOUND IN THE WORD ORDER.

1 Corinthians 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

It is only used this one time. Hopefully you were in the military or know someone who was because it really helps to understand.

5001. tagma
Strong's Concordance
tagma: that which has been arranged in order, spec. a division, rank
Original Word: τάγμα, ατος, τό
Part of Speech: Noun, Neuter
Transliteration: tagma
Phonetic Spelling: (tag'-mah)
Definition: that which has been arranged in order, a division, rank
Usage: rank, division, an ordered series.
HELPS Word-studies
Cognate: 5001 tágma (a neuter noun) – an ordered arrangement, reflecting God's perfect wisdom in ordering all of creation (it only occurs in 1 Cor 15:23). See 5021 (tassō).

5001 /tágma ("order") extends to the principle of God's ordering to its natural results.



AGAIN AND again we know what the day of the Lord will look like from beginning to end. They have not one description of what will happen to the 'church' (unless you count the things like 'spewed out of His mouth') they have deemed themselves 'REWARDS and PROMISES ONLY' as the declare themselves SAVED and too special to be PROVED like Christ was of His Father.

Isaiah 29:1 Woe to Ariel, to Ariel, the city where David dwelt! add ye year to year; let them kill sacrifices.
2 Yet I will distress Ariel, and there shall be heaviness and sorrow: and it shall be unto me as Ariel.
3 And I will camp against thee round about, and will lay siege against thee with a mount, and I will raise forts against thee.
4 And thou shalt be brought down, and shalt speak out of the ground, and thy speech shall be low out of the dust, and thy voice shall be, as of one that hath a familiar spirit, out of the ground, and thy speech shall whisper out of the dust.
5 Moreover the multitude of thy strangers shall be like small dust, and the multitude of the terrible ones shall be as chaff that passeth away: yea, it shall be at an instant suddenly.
6 Thou shalt be visited of the LORD of hosts with thunder, and with earthquake, and great noise, with storm and tempest, and the flame of devouring fire.
7 And the multitude of all the nations that fight against Ariel, even all that fight against her and her munition, and that distress her, shall be as a dream of a night vision.
8 It shall even be as when an hungry man dreameth, and, behold, he eateth; but he awaketh, and his soul is empty: or as when a thirsty man dreameth, and, behold, he drinketh; but he awaketh, and, behold, he is faint, and his soul hath appetite: so shall the multitude of all the nations be, that fight against mount Zion.
9 Stay yourselves, and wonder; cry ye out, and cry: they are drunken, but not with wine; they stagger, but not with strong drink.
10 For the LORD hath poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep, and hath closed your eyes: the prophets and your rulers, the seers hath he covered.
11 And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed, which men deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I cannot; for it is sealed:
12 And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned.
13 Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men
14 Therefore, behold, I will proceed to do a marvellous work among this people, even a marvellous work and a wonder: for the wisdom of their wise men shall perish, and the understanding of their prudent men shall be hid.
15 Woe unto them that seek deep to hide their counsel from the LORD, and their works are in the dark, and they say, Who seeth us? and who knoweth us?
16 Surely your turning of things upside down shall be esteemed as the potter's clay: for shall the work say of him that made it, He made me not? or shall the thing framed say of him that framed it, He had no understanding?
17 Is it not yet a very little while, and Lebanon shall be turned into a fruitful field, and the fruitful field shall be esteemed as a forest?
18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.
19 The meek also shall increase their joy in the LORD, and the poor among men shall rejoice in the Holy One of Israel.


20 For the terrible one is brought to nought, and the scorner is consumed, and all that watch for iniquity are cut off

21 That make a man an offender for a word, and lay a snare for him that reproveth in the gate, and turn aside the just for a thing of nought.
22 Therefore thus saith the LORD, who redeemed Abraham, concerning the house of Jacob, Jacob shall not now be ashamed, neither shall his face now wax pale.
23 But when he seeth his children, the work of mine hands, in the midst of him, they shall sanctify My name, and sanctify the Holy One of Jacob, and shall fear the God of Israel.

24 They also that erred in spirit shall come to understanding, and they that murmured shall learn doctrine.

WHO WILL WE BE PRIESTS OVER OR WHO WILL BE PRIESTS OVER US?

THERE IS ONLY ONE TRUTH yet there are many many DECEPTIONs.

EITHER IT IS WRITTEN OR IT IS HATH GOD SAID?.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
Error alert!!! The ONLY "firstfruits" is Jesus Christ Himself.

No.

Yes!

Acts 26:23 - that the Messiah would suffer and, as the first to rise from the dead, would bring the message of light to his own people and to the Gentiles.”

1 Cor 15:23 - But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

Christ's resurrection is called the "firstfruits" because He was the FIRST to receive a glorified body.

Abs is correct that the 144,000 are ALSO called "firstfruit" (Rev14:4).

Go ahead and reject Acts 26:23 and 1 Cor 15:23 then.

And, while you are at it, can you find any verse that shows a resurrection that is described as "harvest" and a resurrection described as "gleanings"?

And James 1:18 states, "a KIND of firstfruit" (meaning, there is MORE THAN ONE "kind")

[QIUOTE]And Lev23 mentions TWO [distinct] "firstfruit" (and this, connected with the idea of "the FIRST of the firstfruit" in Exodus)[/QUOTE]
And what is the context in Lev 23? v.9-14 is about the "Feast of Firstfruits". There is NOTHING about a resurrection or rapture. So your point is irrelevant.

And some versions have the word "firstfruit" in 2Th2:13 (which I believe to be an accurate rendering)...

And again, NOTHING about the resurrection and rapture.

You 2 are just reaching for straws.

...and all of this is connected with the concept that "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" was "quickened-together-with Him" and "raised-up-together" and "seated-together" IN Christ Jesus, in the heavenlies (that is, WHEN HE was; Eph2:5-6; Col2:12-13; 3:1[-4]... as well as passages such as 1Cor12:12 "[...] so also is THE CHRIST" and 1Cor6:17... etc): Eph1:20-23 WHEN (as to its existence) ... but if one does not know the identification of "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY," in Scripture, then one surely will not see all that is in connection with it, there, either.

Nothing of which you write is connected to the resurrection or rapture.

You CANNOT show any resurrection verse that has "harvest" or "gleanings".

 

[FreeGrace2]

None of you get it.

Said the guy who doesn't get it. lol

In order to prove a challenge, or claim, one must address the dynamic.

Oh, no. See? You really do NOT get it.

In order rto prove a claim, one must show Scripture that says what is claimed.

Which NONE of you pretrib guys can do.

Instead you guys PRETEND there are no verses.

This is just hilarious!! Said the guy who pretends that there ARE verses that support his unbiblical claims. lol

....even though we post them over and over.

Then why hasn't ANY of them show Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven?????

That is dishonest.

It is dishonest to MAKE UP stuff that the Bible says nothing about, and push it as if the Bible does say it.

 

[kleronomos]

I used to think that the LoF was called the "second death" several times in Revelation because the LoF is spiritual death.

He is a consuming fire. There was a flood. Jesus was born in the flesh and walked among us. I also believe there will be a judgment day with books and lake of fire. God isn't in any hurry. So if no lake of fire what happens?

 

[Heaven_Bound]

Russia invading Ukraine

China invading Taiwan

Israel invading Iran





Do we have enough "Rumors of War" yet?



And if none of these happen, what Peace Treaty is going to be made to stop these from becoming Wars?

 

[FreeGrace2]

Firstfruit Jews.
That makes several times you OMITTED IT.

Because there is NOTHING in Rev 14 about Jews being raptured separately from Gentiles. Not even a mention of resurrection in general.

Jesus gathers WITH a sickle.
Sitting on a cloud.

So, let's see what ALL is found in ch 14. You might want to close your eyes.

v.1 - Then I looked, and there before me was the Lamb, standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father’s name written on their foreheads.

v.4 - These are those who did not defile themselves with women, for they remained virgins. They follow the Lamb wherever he goes. They were purchased from among mankind and offered as firstfruits to God and the Lamb.

Does this sound like a resurrection to you? No one is "offered" during the resurrection. These Jews are "firstfruits" in the sense that they are the first among Jews to believe in the Messiah during the Tribulation.

v.14-16
14 I looked, and there before me was a white cloud, and seated on the cloud was one like a son of man with a crown of gold on his head and a sharp sickle in his hand.
15 Then another angel came out of the temple and called in a loud voice to him who was sitting on the cloud, “Take your sickle and reap, because the time to reap has come, for the harvest of the earth is ripe.”
16 So he who was seated on the cloud swung his sickle over the earth, and the earth was harvested.

This "harvest" isn't anything close to a resurrection of the saved. Recall, there is only ONE resurrection of the saved.

next verse, v.17 - Another angel came out of the temple in heaven, and he too had a sharp sickle.
Sharp sickles are used in harvesting CROPS, but NEVER people. They KILL people.

v.18 - Still another angel, who had charge of the fire, came from the altar and called in a loud voice to him who had the sharp sickle, “Take your sharp sickle and gather the clusters of grapes from the earth’s vine, because its grapes are ripe.”

Clearly, the "sharp sickle" is meant for human beings.

v.19-20
19 The angel swung his sickle on the earth, gathered its grapes and threw them into the great winepress of God’s wrath.

20 They were trampled in the winepress outside the city, and blood flowed out of the press, rising as high as the horses’ bridles for a distance of 1,600 stadia.

See? Told ya so. The "harvesting" here is a reference to human beings being gathered and thrown into the "greatwinepress of God's wrath".

And you keep using Rev 14 as some kind of resurrection of believers. Amazing.

No, the harvesting is a figure of speech about human being being gathered and thrown into the great winepress of God's wrath.

So, you can STOP referring to Re 14 when you get the itch to talk about resurrection, ok?

That is neither the rapture nor the second coming on horses.

And it sure isn't about the resurrection of anyone.

Reframing revelation is dangerous.

Yes it is. So just STOP it already.

That is EXACTLY what you are doing..

In fact, I just proved from that chapter, that there is nothing about resurrection or rapture.

 

[FreeGrace2]

the innumerable number in heaven are resurrected martyrs.

That alone causes insurmountable hurdles in your model..

How come all you do is throw out claims or charges or challenges, but NEVER explain what you mean by them?

Please describe what you mean by "insurmountable hurdles in my model". I have no idea what is buzzing through your skull.

also....We dont know how the 144k got to heaven DURING THE TRIB.

The Bible doesn't say even if they die during the Trib. They may be part of the living believers who "endured to the end" and will participate in the ONE resurrection of the saved.

You can not explain any of it.

Just did. You can now open your eyes.

 

[kleronomos]

It appears to me that you've left out (not just in this post ^ ) the part about "the dead in Christ SHALL RISE FIRST"... so that the next thing being, "caught up TOGETHER WITH / TOGETHER IN-UNION-WITH them" (meaning, "caught up at the same time as them [/together with them]") means that it's ONE SNATCH-ACTION for both components (of the "one body")... "and SO [/in this way] shall WE ever be WITH [G4862 - UNIONed-WITH] the Lord."

I'm not really seeing this reflected in your posts.

So what takes place at the 2nd Advent if those scriptures go to pre trib?

 

[FreeGrace2]

Well, my thought is, BECAUSE you'd said this:
"The Bride is gathered IN heaven in Rev 19. And "when He comes" the remnant of living believers are included."

What does that look like, to you? (how does what you put ^ , get fleshed out [in your view]?)

I have no idea what you are talking about. Is the Bride IN heaven in Rev 19? Yes. Is the Bride "getting ready for the supper"? Yes.

Does the Bride accompany King Jesus back to earth in Rev 19? Yes.

Now, at the resurrection of the saved, is the remnant of living believers included in that resurrection? Yes.

Any questions?

Coz... it almost sounds as though you are saying that "they that ARE Christ's AT HIS COMING" refers only to the "STILL-LIVING" saints at the time. To me, those particular folks do not NEED to be "RESURRECTED" [which is what 1Cor15:23 is speaking on the Subject of], but *you* are saying they DO need to be.

Every believer will be "resurrected" in the sense of receiving a glorified (imperishable) body. Those living at Christ's return will be "changed in the twinkling of the eye", which is when they get their new body.

I disagree that "RESURRECTION" speaks to anything but [being defined as] "to stand AGAIN [on the earth, after having physically DIED]"

Sad. There are 2 kinds of 'standing again" or rising from the dead. One is simply the physical moral body is raised and the soul returns to it. Examples are the many who came out of their graves when Jesus was crucified, Lazarus, the widow's son, etc. None of them received glorified bodies. No believer will receive a glorified body UNTIL "when He comes" as 1 Cor 15:23 says.

(except in the case where a certain thing is LIKENED UNTO "a resurrection," like we see in Ezek37:12-14,20-23 (the "dry bones" prophecy) where Israel is brought up "out of the graveyard of nations, WHERE SCATTERED" [parallel Rom11:15[25,27]; Dan12:1-4,10; Isa26:14-21,esp.v.19; Hos5:14-6:3; etc])

Ezek has NOTHING to do with the believer's resurrection. Just stick with the NT for all your learning needs.

I DISAGREE that 1Th4 is the main passage showing "PRE-trib"... Viewing merely THIS passage ALONE, apart from OTHER [related] passages, one cannot conclude its "timing" (merely from 1Th4 alone).

Of course it can't be a pretrib event. It describes the SINGLE resurrection of all believers (including those alive "when He comes".

So, NO. And thus, I do not believe 1Th4 "is their [/our] MAIN passage for it"... hardly. And I think saying such a thing shows a serious lack of attention on your part (that is, not actually "hearing" the "pre-trib" arguments).

What is the "main passage" for defending a pretrib rapture?

1Cor15:23 "[re: resurrection] but EACH [G1538 - https://biblehub.com/greek/1538.htm ] in his own ORDER / RANK" (indicating that there is an "ORDER / RANK" to it, and that there doesn't remain ONLY ONE, at one singular point-in-time)...

Oh, stop. The Greek word is flexible and can mean either order OR rank. Since the Bible teaches that there is A resurrection of the saved and A resurrection of the unsaved, that makes TWO resurrections total for the human race. Just two.

For believers, that single resurrection will occur "when He comes", according to 1 Cor 15:23.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

You CANNOT show any resurrection verse that has "harvest" or "gleanings".

You're mixing me up with some other poster (I assume), because I've not said "resurrection" IS "harvest" (as tho equated, as you seem to be suggesting I've said).

For example, Matt13:24,30,39,40,49-50 (re: "the end [singular] of the age [singular]"... related to the disciples' Q of Jesus in Matt24:3... when the ANGELS will "REAP" [/harvest]), there is no one being "resurrected [from the dead]" in these passages, but speaks rather of "STILL-LIVING" persons [/saints] at the END of the Trib yrs (at the time of Christ's Second Coming to the earth: Rev19 / Matt24:29-31 / Matt25:31-34, etc--those "saints" who will ENTER the earthly MK age in their mortal bodies, capable of reproducing / bearing children [same as we see in Dan12:12 and about 8 other "BLESSED" passages speaking to this same point])




[note: this is NOT to say there WON'T BE "resurrection" at His Second Coming to the earth point in time... there WILL BE, as I already pointed out: Dan12:13, Job19:25-27, Jn11:24 (OT saints)... as well as Rev20:4b (Trib saints), etc...THEY will "STAND AGAIN [on the earth]"/be "resurrected" (not "caught up / SNATCHED / raptured / harpazo'd [IN THE AIR]"--which ONLY "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" is slated for!)]

 

[FreeGrace2]

AS to the 'FIRST' issue which seems to be holding to a certain doctrine, YOUR ANSWER IN FOUND IN THE WORD ORDER.

1 Corinthians 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

It is only used this one time. Hopefully you were in the military or know someone who was because it really helps to understand.

5001. tagma
Strong's Concordance
tagma: that which has been arranged in order, spec. a division, rank
Original Word: τάγμα, ατος, τό
Part of Speech: Noun, Neuter
Transliteration: tagma
Phonetic Spelling: (tag'-mah)
Definition: that which has been arranged in order, a division, rank
Usage: rank, division, an ordered series.
HELPS Word-studies
Cognate: 5001 tágma (a neuter noun) – an ordered arrangement, reflecting God's perfect wisdom in ordering all of creation (it only occurs in 1 Cor 15:23). See 5021 (tassō).

5001 /tágma ("order") extends to the principle of God's ordering to its natural results.

I was in the military and I do understand order or rank. But 1 Cor 15:23 doesn't give license to believe or teach that men will be resurrected in different events of resurrection. There is only ONE for the saved and ONE for the unsaved, per Acts 24:15.

If you can prove that verse doesn't mean what I claim, then please show what it does say.

"every man in his own order" only means that human beings will be resurrected together AFTER Christ received His glorified body.

This is seen clearly from the phrase "when He comes, those who belong to Him". This refers to the Second Advent, when King Jesus comes back to earth, resurrects/raptures ALL believers, defeats the enemy at the battle of Armageddon and begins to reign over the earth with a rod of iron.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
I used to think that the LoF was called the "second death" several times in Revelation because the LoF is spiritual death.

He is a consuming fire. There was a flood. Jesus was born in the flesh and walked among us. I also believe there will be a judgment day with books and lake of fire. God isn't in any hurry. So if no lake of fire what happens?

Well, there IS a LoF, and I don't speculate, so I can't answer your question.

I do know what happens, though. Second Advent, resurrection and rapture of all believers, 1,000 year reign of Christ over the earth, release of Satan to deceive the world once again, battle of God and Magog destroyed, present heaven and earth melts, new heaven and earth appear, and the eternal state on the new earth.

 

[FreeGrace2]

You're mixing me up with some other poster (I assume), because I've not said "resurrection" IS "harvest" (as tho equated, as you seem to be suggesting I've said).

It's hard to separate posters when there have been so many pages and even theories being proposed. My bad.

[note: this is NOT to say there WON'T BE "resurrection" at His Second Coming to the earth point in time... there WILL BE, as I already pointed out: Dan12:13, Job19:25-27, Jn11:24 (OT saints)... as well as Rev20:4b (Trib saints), etc...THEY will "STAND AGAIN [on the earth]"/be "resurrected" (not "caught up / SNATCHED / raptured / harpazo'd [IN THE AIR]"--which ONLY "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" is slated for!)]

Nope. 1 Cor 15:23 is very clear that the single resurrection of ALL believers occurs "when He comes". Not hard to figure out.

There is only ONE resurrection for the saved. Read these verses and look for how many resurrections are referenced.

Matt 22:30
Luke 14:14
Acts 24"15
1 Cor 15:23

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Do we have enough "Rumors of War" yet?

That passage ^ in reference, is what will be taking place FOLLOWING "our Rapture" (per CONTEXT)

And if none of these happen, what Peace Treaty is going to be made to stop these from becoming Wars?

May I ask, what "PEACE TREATY" (in Scripture) are you talking about [that is "going to be made to stop these from becoming Wars?"]
Scripture reference, please.





Are you talking about "when they shall say PEACE and SAFETY... [THEN!]..."