Interpreting the Parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus: It's Really Good News!

[Runningman]

It should be clear that there is everlasting punishment awaiting the unredeemed sinner in the form of everlasting fire where there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

(Matthew 25:46; Matthew 25:41; Matthew 13:41-42, Matthew 13:49-50).

No that's not clear. You have the Rich Man and Lazarus who isn't wailing or gnashing his teeth while completely cognizant, engulfed in flames, having a coherent conversation. Furthermore, you're making the assumption that the "eternal punishment" is eternal conscious torment, when no where in the Bible, even one singular time is that stated; the Rich Man and Lazarus story doesn't say it lasts forever.

Sorry, but maybe we should have a tie-breaker based on the number of verses that allegedly support eternal conscious torment versus those that support destruction.

Here's mine:

• James 4:12 "God alone, who gave the law, is the Judge. He alone has the power to save or to destroy."
• Hebrews 10:39 " But we are not like those who turn away from God to their own destruction..."
• Philippians 3:18-19 "For I have told you often before, and I say it again with tears in my eyes, that there are many whose conduct shows they are really enemies of the cross of Christ. 19 They are headed for destruction."
• Psalm 92:7 "Though the wicked sprout like weeds and evildoers flourish they will be destroyed forever."
• Psalm 37:20 "But the wicked will die... they will disappear like smoke."
• Psalm 1:6: "... For the Lord watches over the path of the godly, but the path of the wicked leads to destruction."
• Hebrews 10:26-27 NLT "There is only the terrible expectation of God’s judgment and the raging fire that will consume his enemies."
• 2 Peter 3:7 "...for the day of judgment, when ungodly people will be destroyed."
• Romans 2:7 "He will give eternal life to those who keep on doing good, seeking after the glory and honor and immortality that God offers."
• Genesis 3:19 " For you were made from dust, and to dust you will return."
• Psalm 146:4 "When they breathe their last, they return to the earth, and all their plans die with them."
• Ecclesiastes 9:5 "For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten."
• Ezekiel 18:20 "The person who sins is the one who will die."
• 2 Chronicles 28:3 " He burned incense in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, and burned his children in the fire, according to the abominations of the nations whom the Lord had cast out before the children of Israel." (the Valley of Ben Hinnom is where the concept of Gehenna or Hell comes from)
• Jeremiah 19:5 "They have built pagan shrines to Baal, and there they burn their sons as sacrifices to Baal. I have never commanded such a horrible deed; it never even crossed my mind to command such a thing!" (the Valley of Ben Hinnom is where the concept of Gehenna or Hell comes from)
• Malachi 4:1, 4:3 "The day of judgment is coming, burning like a furnace. On that day the arrogant and the wicked will be burned up like straw. They will be consumed—roots, branches, and all... On the day when I act, you will tread upon the wicked as if they were dust under your feet,” says the Lord of Heaven’s Armies."
• Matthew 10:28 "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."
• John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life."
• John 6:51 "I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Anyone who eats this bread will live forever" (the offer to live forever only makes sense if it were possible to not live forever.)
• 2 Thessalonians 1:9 "They will be punished with eternal destruction, forever separated from the Lord and from his glorious power."
• Romans 6:23 "For the wages of sin is death."
• 2 Peter 2:6 "and turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, having made them an example unto those that should live ungodly"
• Revelation 20:14-15 "And death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death, even the lake of fire. And if any was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire."

Now it's your turn.

 

[justbyfaith]

All that is needed is one verse to show that there is eternal conscious torment in the lake of fire; and I believe that Revelation 20:10 breaks the tie as a verse that defines for us what it shall be like to be cast into the lake of fire. (Matthew 13:41-42, Matthew 13:49-50, Matthew 25:46, Matthew 25:41 also have a bearing on the conversation).

That it is not only the beast, the false prophet, and the devil who will be cast there is evident in Revelation 20:15.

 

[Runningman]

A single verse isolated from all context never trumps anything in the Bible, at least not in this forum. So you can't produce more verses that show alleged eternal conscious suffering than I can verses about death and destruction of the wicked soul? Got it. I rest my case.

 

[TMS]

If you accept that death = death, it makes sense, the few verses that are being used to say eternal conscious suffering is coming on the wicked can be easily explained if you are willing to hear. There is eternal death and punishment coming to the wicked. Death, not life, will be eternal.

Jud 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Sodom is not burning with eternal fire.

The same word used here for eternal is used in Matt 25 for everlasting...
G166
Transliteration: aiōnios
without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be
without beginning
without end, never to cease, everlasting

 

[TheLearner]

No that's not clear. You have the Rich Man and Lazarus who isn't wailing or gnashing his teeth while completely cognizant, engulfed in flames, having a coherent conversation. Furthermore, you're making the assumption that the "eternal punishment" is eternal conscious torment, when no where in the Bible, even one singular time is that stated; the Rich Man and Lazarus story doesn't say it lasts forever.

Sorry, but maybe we should have a tie-breaker based on the number of verses that allegedly support eternal conscious torment versus those that support destruction.

Here's mine:

• James 4:12 "God alone, who gave the law, is the Judge. He alone has the power to save or to destroy."
• Hebrews 10:39 " But we are not like those who turn away from God to their own destruction..."
• Philippians 3:18-19 "For I have told you often before, and I say it again with tears in my eyes, that there are many whose conduct shows they are really enemies of the cross of Christ. 19 They are headed for destruction."
• Psalm 92:7 "Though the wicked sprout like weeds and evildoers flourish they will be destroyed forever."
• Psalm 37:20 "But the wicked will die... they will disappear like smoke."
• Psalm 1:6: "... For the Lord watches over the path of the godly, but the path of the wicked leads to destruction."
• Hebrews 10:26-27 NLT "There is only the terrible expectation of God’s judgment and the raging fire that will consume his enemies."
• 2 Peter 3:7 "...for the day of judgment, when ungodly people will be destroyed."
• Romans 2:7 "He will give eternal life to those who keep on doing good, seeking after the glory and honor and immortality that God offers."
• Genesis 3:19 " For you were made from dust, and to dust you will return."
• Psalm 146:4 "When they breathe their last, they return to the earth, and all their plans die with them."
• Ecclesiastes 9:5 "For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten."
• Ezekiel 18:20 "The person who sins is the one who will die."
• 2 Chronicles 28:3 " He burned incense in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, and burned his children in the fire, according to the abominations of the nations whom the Lord had cast out before the children of Israel." (the Valley of Ben Hinnom is where the concept of Gehenna or Hell comes from)
• Jeremiah 19:5 "They have built pagan shrines to Baal, and there they burn their sons as sacrifices to Baal. I have never commanded such a horrible deed; it never even crossed my mind to command such a thing!" (the Valley of Ben Hinnom is where the concept of Gehenna or Hell comes from)
• Malachi 4:1, 4:3 "The day of judgment is coming, burning like a furnace. On that day the arrogant and the wicked will be burned up like straw. They will be consumed—roots, branches, and all... On the day when I act, you will tread upon the wicked as if they were dust under your feet,” says the Lord of Heaven’s Armies."
• Matthew 10:28 "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."
• John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life."
• John 6:51 "I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Anyone who eats this bread will live forever" (the offer to live forever only makes sense if it were possible to not live forever.)
• 2 Thessalonians 1:9 "They will be punished with eternal destruction, forever separated from the Lord and from his glorious power."
• Romans 6:23 "For the wages of sin is death."
• 2 Peter 2:6 "and turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, having made them an example unto those that should live ungodly"
• Revelation 20:14-15 "And death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death, even the lake of fire. And if any was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire."

Now it's your turn.

 

[TheLearner]

I disagree with your viewpoint, but I agape you all in Christ.

 

[TheLearner]

I posted an outline somewhere in this thread.

 

[posthuman]

That's interesting, but I think you're misrepresenting Irenaeus regardless of what you think he said or was able to deduce from his writings.

Irenaeus self-identified as a conditionalist, though I don't think the doctrine was known by that at the time, it was just known as sound Biblical doctrine (hence why he wrote a book called Against Heresies containing what people in the present day believe in heresy).

where does Irenaeus say that?

and if he is a conditionalist ((which is synonymous with annihilationist)) then why does he take pains to distinguish existence from life, in pp. 4 of the text we're looking at?

if he believes in annihilation, then life is synonymous with existence in his argument, because he rightly says life will be taken from those who reject Christ -- so there is no need to say anything further. but if he believes the soul continues to exist ((defining 'immortality' in terms of existence, not in terms of life)) then he has every reason to specify that life and existence are not interchangeable terms.

as it is, he devotes a big block of text to arguing that the soul is immortal. that is very peculiar of him to do, if it is not at all his position!

 

[posthuman]

There are a lot of articles on his writings, which identify him as a conditionalist (some people call these people annihilationists) because that's what he wrote about though he meandered a lot in his writings.

there are plenty that refute those articles, too -- and ubiquitously, the criticism is that they quote that section from book V ch. XXXIV out of context and twist it out of the argument Irenaeus makes. in fact i think it's pretty much one guy, Chris Date, whose opinion is then copy-pasted into all kinds of other annihilationist websites.

here is a two-part article discussing at length how those articles you are talking about are misrepresenting what Irenaeus actually wrote by selectively ignoring everything else he said, specifically refuting Chris Date.

have a read --

Irenaeus is not an annihilationist part 1

Irenaeus is not an annihilationist part 2

and just for completion, so we can be on the same page, here is where i am reading the complete text of Against Heresies:

Irenaeus

because as much as we can all read what some other scholar has written about what they think Irenaeus thinks, what we really ought to do is read Irenaeus himself, if we really want to know what he thinks.

 

[Runningman]

there are plenty that refute those articles, too -- and ubiquitously, the criticism is that they quote that section from book V ch. XXXIV out of context and twist it out of the argument Irenaeus makes. in fact i think it's pretty much one guy, Chris Date, whose opinion is then copy-pasted into all kinds of other annihilationist websites.

here is a two-part article discussing at length how those articles you are talking about are misrepresenting what Irenaeus actually wrote by selectively ignoring everything else he said, specifically refuting Chris Date.

have a read --

Irenaeus is not an annihilationist part 1

Irenaeus is not an annihilationist part 2

and just for completion, so we can be on the same page, here is where i am reading the complete text of Against Heresies:

Irenaeus

because as much as we can all read what some other scholar has written about what they think Irenaeus thinks, what we really ought to do is read Irenaeus himself, if we really want to know what he thinks.

I agree and what I am seeing is they we have two contradictory worldviews and understanding of who God is after reading the exact same texts. Yes I see that it’s possible to read the same exact material while using the exact same definitions and come to conclusions that are worlds apart.

What I see from Irenaeus, while yes of course he did talk about the immortal soul, he also talked about the soul that dies when God is ready for it to die. This is at the heart of what conditional immortality is. Immortality is based on conditions such as faith in Christ (John 3:16). Those without faith in Christ do not meet the minimum qualification for immortality, therefore, they can’t live forever engulfed in flames while weeping and gnashing thief teeth according to scripture. That’s basically what Irenaeus believes.

 

[justbyfaith]

A single verse isolated from all context never trumps anything in the Bible, at least not in this forum. So you can't produce more verses that show alleged eternal conscious suffering than I can verses about death and destruction of the wicked soul? Got it. I rest my case.

I disagree with you. I believe that if there is even one verse that contradicts a concept, that that concept is not biblical. And that if there is even one verse that supports a concept, that that concept ought to be considered as biblical.

In 2 Thessalonians 1:9, "everlasting destruction",

can be defined by the algebraic equation y = 1 / x,

where y is the wholeness of the individual and x is the time elapsed.

y continues to decrease as x increases and y never reaches xero.

When x = 1,000,000, y = 1 / 1,000,000.

As for the concept of death, it is not defined as the cessation of consciousness;

But is rather defined as separation of the soul from the body (for death, biblically, is separation)...

And spiritual death, as it is defined in Romans 6:23, is eternal separation from God;

Where the person is separated from all that is good.

While the Holy Spirit resides in hell (Psalms 139:7-8);

His vocation there is not to produce joy as in the heart of the Christian;

But to produce conviction so that there will be no complaining; as every person in hell will know based on that conviction that they deserve to be there and that their condemnation is just.

 

[TheLearner]

where does Irenaeus say that?

and if he is a conditionalist ((which is synonymous with annihilationist)) then why does he take pains to distinguish existence from life, in pp. 4 of the text we're looking at?

if he believes in annihilation, then life is synonymous with existence in his argument, because he rightly says life will be taken from those who reject Christ -- so there is no need to say anything further. but if he believes the soul continues to exist ((defining 'immortality' in terms of existence, not in terms of life)) then he has every reason to specify that life and existence are not interchangeable terms.

as it is, he devotes a big block of text to arguing that the soul is immortal. that is very peculiar of him to do, if it is not at all his position!

I may have posted that quote in one of my long posts.

 

[TheLearner]

read to here

 

[Runningman]

I disagree with you. I believe that if there is even one verse that contradicts a concept, that that concept is not biblical. And that if there is even one verse that supports a concept, that that concept ought to be considered as biblical.

In 2 Thessalonians 1:9, "everlasting destruction",

can be defined by the algebraic equation y = 1 / x,

where y is the wholeness of the individual and x is the time elapsed.

y continues to decrease as x increases and y never reaches xero.

When x = 1,000,000, y = 1 / 1,000,000.

As for the concept of death, it is not defined as the cessation of consciousness;

But is rather defined as separation of the soul from the body (for death, biblically, is separation)...

And spiritual death, as it is defined in Romans 6:23, is eternal separation from God;

Where the person is separated from all that is good.

While the Holy Spirit resides in hell (Psalms 139:7-8);

His vocation there is not to produce joy as in the heart of the Christian;

But to produce conviction so that there will be no complaining; as every person in hell will know based on that conviction that they deserve to be there and that their condemnation is just.

I see what you’re saying. The way we marriage your doctrine of eternal torment with the Bible’s doctrine of destruction and death is that immortality is conditional. Basically the soul is immortal until God decides it isn’t. When “every last penny is paid” they are free to be annihilated. Don’t get me wrong, I by no means think that it will be a quick and easy cakewalk going to hell and being annihilated in a few minutes. The pain can go on until the punishment is complete, but it’s not eternal..

Mat 5:26 Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing.

 

[Runningman]

I disagree with you. I believe that if there is even one verse that contradicts a concept, that that concept is not biblical. And that if there is even one verse that supports a concept, that that concept ought to be considered as biblical.

In 2 Thessalonians 1:9, "everlasting destruction",

can be defined by the algebraic equation y = 1 / x,

where y is the wholeness of the individual and x is the time elapsed.

y continues to decrease as x increases and y never reaches xero.

When x = 1,000,000, y = 1 / 1,000,000.

As for the concept of death, it is not defined as the cessation of consciousness;

But is rather defined as separation of the soul from the body (for death, biblically, is separation)...

And spiritual death, as it is defined in Romans 6:23, is eternal separation from God;

Where the person is separated from all that is good.

While the Holy Spirit resides in hell (Psalms 139:7-8);

His vocation there is not to produce joy as in the heart of the Christian;

But to produce conviction so that there will be no complaining; as every person in hell will know based on that conviction that they deserve to be there and that their condemnation is just.

It’s funny that you quote “eternal punishment “ from Matthew 25 and don’t jump through hoops and bend over backwards to interpret it, but when confronted with 2 Thess. 1:9, you invented an equation to change the plain text of the verse to mean something else. You’re driven by an agenda, that’s why you can’t just accept verses that teach something other than your doctrine of eternal torment.

 

[justbyfaith]

It’s funny that you quote “eternal punishment “ from Matthew 25 and don’t jump through hoops and bend over backwards to interpret it, but when confronted with 2 Thess. 1:9, you invented an equation to change the plain text of the verse to mean something else. You’re driven by an agenda, that’s why you can’t just accept verses that teach something other than your doctrine of eternal torment.

I didn't "invent the equation"...

I noticed it in algebra class that it fit the bar.

 

[justbyfaith]

I see what you’re saying. The way we marriage your doctrine of eternal torment with the Bible’s doctrine of destruction and death is that immortality is conditional. Basically the soul is immortal until God decides it isn’t. When “every last penny is paid” they are free to be annihilated. Don’t get me wrong, I by no means think that it will be a quick and easy cakewalk going to hell and being annihilated in a few minutes. The pain can go on until the punishment is complete, but it’s not eternal..

Mat 5:26 Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing.

It is in fact "everlasting punishment" which is "everlasting fire" and which is characterized by "wailing and gnashing of teeth".

(Matthew 25:46; Matthew 25:41; Matthew 13:41-42, Matthew 13:49-50).

This is what is written in Revelation 20:10; that the lake of fire is defined as a place where they are "tormented day and night for ever and ever"...

And also, in Revelation 20:15, it becomes clear that this does not only apply to the beast, the false prophet, and the devil.

 

[justbyfaith]

The plain meaning of "everlasting destruction" means to be destroyed everlastingly.

The algebraic equation that I gave only helps you to see the meaning of that more clearly.

 

[Runningman]

It is in fact "everlasting punishment" which is "everlasting fire" and which is characterized by "wailing and gnashing of teeth".

(Matthew 25:46; Matthew 25:41; Matthew 13:41-42, Matthew 13:49-50).

This is what is written in Revelation 20:10; that the lake of fire is defined as a place where they are "tormented day and night for ever and ever"...

And also, in Revelation 20:15, it becomes clear that this does not only apply to the beast, the false prophet, and the devil.

It’s painful until it ends, which may or may not be a long time, but it isn’t forever because soul death and destruction is a real thing. I will just accept that the Bible teaches that only those with faith in Christ get eternal life and that everyone else, sooner or later, perishes (John 3:16).

 

[Runningman]

The plain meaning of "everlasting destruction" means to be destroyed everlastingly.

The algebraic equation that I gave only helps you to see the meaning of that more clearly.

Everlasting punishment applies the same way everlasting destruction does. Your view is that punishment is ongoing and never ends. Do you also believe people are destroyed in a never-ending process only to be reformed and destroyed again forever?