Doctrine of Unconditional Election

[FreeGrace2]

peldom10 said:
My mentions are widely read and known. You have a Bible search and satisfy.
If you can't find what you want...let me know and I will help.

If it’s not in scripture then where does it come from?

Apparently from his "mentions", or better called opinions.

 

[Grandpa]

The gift is salvation; the receiving of that gift is through faith. Paul had wanted to refer to the idea of being saved and this is obvious a dissertation of salvation and not faith. The used of "gift if God" never refers to faith as the following:
John 4:10 & 14 refers to everlasting life.
Romans 6:23 refers to eternal life.
Acts 8:20 refers to the Holy Ghost.
1 Cor. 7:7 refers to either the gift of celibacy or given to marriage.
2 Timothy 3:6 refers to the giving of spirit in power, in love and sound mind.

The gift is Salvation. The gift is Grace. And the gift is Faith.

If it were ANY other way then Ephesians 2:8 couldn't be stated the way it is.

You would HAVE to re-word scripture. Salvation is by Grace through faith. This faith IS of yourselves. But the Grace and Salvation is from God.

You see how you are DIRECTLY contradicting scripture by your WISHFUL thinking?


John 3:27 John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven.

John 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

 

[Grandpa]

Umm, bearing fruit has nothing to do with possessing salvation. Your out of the context my friend. This is not how one is saved. Really isn't about pre salvation but a post salvation experience to glorify God and become a follower as in v.8.

Bearing fruit has NOTHING to do with Salvation?

Wow.

You guys have said some really dumb stuff throughout this conversation but this might be the winner of your contest.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

So it is your contention that the "not of yourselves" applies to Grace but NOT to faith???

No. The phrase "not of yourselves" refers to salvation. We don't work for salvation.

How in the WORLD can you make Ephesians say this, unless it is by pure wishful thinking???

How in the WORLD can you so misread and misunderstand either my posts or Eph 2:9?

There is NO WAY this can be stated like this if Faith WASN'T included in the "not of yourselves".

I don't have to refute you because Paul already did in Rom 10:10 - For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.

If faith was meant for YOU to stir up in yourself it would be stated that way.

lol. Demanding specific wording to satisfy yourself. Nope. Rom 10:10 is clear enough. We believe from our own heart. That refutes calvinism all the way.

btw, where do you get the fantasy that non calvinists think that we have to faith has to be "stirred up" in ourselves?

That's part of the problem of discussing with with calvinists. You guys are so full of goofy notions, it is nearly impossible to get through to you.

God created mankind with a conscience, per Rom 2:14.15. It is FROM this conscience that man is able to determine good and bad, as Paul points out. So, when the gospel is preached and heard, man is FACED with a CHOICE. To either believe the gospel or not.

It is that simple. But calvinists just can't help themselves, what with all that baggage of notions "stirring up" in their heads.

For by Grace are you saved through faith; Faith that you stir up in yourself: Then God is ABLE to save you because you stirred up that faith in yourself.

You need to empty your head of all those fantasy notions about what others think.

When you approach a bridge, do you cross over it in order to HAVE faith (trust) in the bridge, or do you CHOOSE to trust the bridge BEFORE you drive over it? Sane people will ALWAYS trust before crossing over.

God created humans to be able to determine right from wrong. And every culture in the history of mankind has borne that out.

No culture has been found that had no rules for behavior. They differ, sure. But rules nonetheless.

Isn't it pretty sad that you have a god that is so powerless?

Don't be sad. My God is omnipotent. What is sad is how calvinists view the Bible and screw it up so much.

He can't choose anyone to save. He has to wait to see if anyone has faith in him.

OK, 2 stupid sentences. I'll address each one.

#1 The Bible actually tells us who He does choose to save.
1 Cor 1:21 - "God is pleased...to save those who believe". That's a choice, for those who don't understand choice.

#2 God is not only omnipotent, but omniscient. That means He is all knowing. So this sentence is stupid because it assumes that God isn't omniscient, when He is.

1 John 3:20 - If our hearts condemn us, we know that God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything

I would recommend that you don't post such stupid statements anymore.

All you do is prove how ignorant you are of the views of others with whom you disagree.

 

[Grandpa]

Is believing a work?

Only in your belief structure.

If Faith is a gift of God, which it is, then NO believing is not a work.


If a person must stir belief up in themselves in order to make God save them, then yes, belief would be a work.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Bearing fruit has NOTHING to do with Salvation?

Wow.

Why do you think it does? Are you a faith PLUS works kind of guy?

You guys have said some really dumb stuff throughout this conversation but this might be the winner of your contest.

If you so right and we so wrong, please support your claim from Scripture.

If you can't we will know who is really saying "some really dumb stuff".

 

[Grandpa]

No. The phrase "not of yourselves" refers to salvation. We don't work for salvation.


How in the WORLD can you so misread and misunderstand either my posts or Eph 2:9?


I don't have to refute you because Paul already did in Rom 10:10 - For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.


lol. Demanding specific wording to satisfy yourself. Nope. Rom 10:10 is clear enough. We believe from our own heart. That refutes calvinism all the way.

btw, where do you get the fantasy that non calvinists think that we have to faith has to be "stirred up" in ourselves?

That's part of the problem of discussing with with calvinists. You guys are so full of goofy notions, it is nearly impossible to get through to you.

God created mankind with a conscience, per Rom 2:14.15. It is FROM this conscience that man is able to determine good and bad, as Paul points out. So, when the gospel is preached and heard, man is FACED with a CHOICE. To either believe the gospel or not.

It is that simple. But calvinists just can't help themselves, what with all that baggage of notions "stirring up" in their heads.


You need to empty your head of all those fantasy notions about what others think.

When you approach a bridge, do you cross over it in order to HAVE faith (trust) in the bridge, or do you CHOOSE to trust the bridge BEFORE you drive over it? Sane people will ALWAYS trust before crossing over.

God created humans to be able to determine right from wrong. And every culture in the history of mankind has borne that out.

No culture has been found that had no rules for behavior. They differ, sure. But rules nonetheless.


Don't be sad. My God is omnipotent. What is sad is how calvinists view the Bible and screw it up so much.


OK, 2 stupid sentences. I'll address each one.

#1 The Bible actually tells us who He does choose to save.
1 Cor 1:21 - "God is pleased...to save those who believe". That's a choice, for those who don't understand choice.

#2 God is not only omnipotent, but omniscient. That means He is all knowing. So this sentence is stupid because it assumes that God isn't omniscient, when He is.

1 John 3:20 - If our hearts condemn us, we know that God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything

I would recommend that you don't post such stupid statements anymore.

All you do is prove how ignorant you are of the views of others with whom you disagree.

Ezekiel 36:26-27
26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.


Paul doesn't "refute" this. It is your misunderstanding that causes These Scriptures to be refuted.

It is your misunderstanding of Salvation that causes all your error.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Ezekiel 36:26-27
26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.


Paul doesn't "refute" this. It is your misunderstanding that causes These Scriptures to be refuted.

It is your misunderstanding of Salvation that causes all your error.

The 2 verses simply describe what happens in regeneration. Believers ARE given a 'new heart'.

There is nothing in these 2 verses that say or show that this new heart is given SO THAT THE RECIPIENT CAN/WILL BELIEVE.

So you are presuming what the Bible doesn't teach. That's calvinism.

 

[Grandpa]

Why do you think it does? Are you a faith PLUS works kind of guy?


If you so right and we so wrong, please support your claim from Scripture.

If you can't we will know who is really saying "some really dumb stuff".

Can a person be UNSAVED and produce fruit?

Or must a person be SAVED to produce fruit?

John 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

Can UNSAVED people abide in Christ?

Isn't that the WHOLE SALVATION process? Learning to have faith in and abide in Christ?


How is it that this needs to be explained to you?

 

[Grandpa]

The 2 verses simply describe what happens in regeneration. Believers ARE given a 'new heart'.

There is nothing in these 2 verses that say or show that this new heart is given SO THAT THE RECIPIENT CAN/WILL BELIEVE.

So you are presuming what the Bible doesn't teach. That's calvinism.

Its not a presumption.

The stoney heart is taken out. This is the HEART OF UNBELIEF. A dead person.

The New Heart is a heart of of flesh. A HEART FULL OF BELIEF. A HEART OF FLESH. A living person. Eternal Life.

 

[peldom10]

If it’s not in scripture then where does it come from?

It is in scripture.

 

[peldom10]

I always wondered how those who feel God only died for some, that not all are His concern, feel settled. I mean...how do they know for sure they are the chosen ones? I mean we can't be so arrogant as to assume to we are those chosen, while others not so much. I believe God shows mercy on who He chooses, but I also believe in Acts 10:34. I am not the authority on His design or ways. I still need His help bringing all the scriptures together. To me, God seeks us all to be saved, but again some have no mutual desire to seek Him, for whatever reason.

I believe my God continues to work towards calling and drawing us all to Him.

Unfortunately, some choose no!!!

...and the list of new age religion interpretations continues to grow...doesn't it. Because the conclusions are deceptive and the Bible says....in the end times there will be great deceptions.

We are there....big time.

 

[CharliRenee]

One of His bests, imo, blessings is the choice He gives. Thank You Lord. U do encourage the right choice, but always allow us to choose. I am so grateful. U know our hearts, and how we need Your help. I know I do, and am so grateful for His faithfulness!!!

 

[peldom10]

peldom10 said:
My mentions are widely read and known. You have a Bible search and satisfy.
If you can't find what you want...let me know and I will help.

Apparently from his "mentions", or better called opinions.

Wrong..alligator breath.
Are you lazy?...or what. Look it up then should you be inclined.
That is not God's way...but it may be your way.

 

[peldom10]

One of His bests, imo, blessings is the choice He gives. Thank You Lord. U do encourage the right choice, but always allow us to choose. I am so grateful. U know our hearts, and how we need Your help. I know I do, and am so grateful for His faithfulness!!!

You miss interpreted what I said.
I was referring to the items you were in doubt about....only died for some...etc.
Sorry..if it was not clear.

 

[John146]

Those scriptures show election is to Salvation as well.

Israel was God's elect nation to bring forth the promise seed, yet they are enemies of the gospel.

 

[John146]

If a person must stir belief up in themselves in order to make God save them, then yes, belief would be a work.

This is not a very good argument. Stir up belief? Make God save them?

Faith come by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. In order for one to have biblical faith, one must first hear the word of God. That's bible.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Can a person be UNSAVED and produce fruit?

Please define what YOU mean by "fruit". Then I can answer.

Or must a person be SAVED to produce fruit?

Ditto.

John 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

Can UNSAVED people abide in Christ?

Of course not. Do you understand what Jesus was saying in v.5?

Isn't that the WHOLE SALVATION process?

No, it's not. You have confused the cart with the horse.

Learning to have faith in and abide in Christ?

Where do you get that one has to 'learn to have faith'?

Do you know how to abide in Christ?

How is it that this needs to be explained to you?

Please answer my questions so I can properly answer them.

 

[peldom10]

John146 said:
Soooo, you're not using Scripture? Gotcha

Wrong question.

Right question: have you ever seen the word "works" in Scripture as a condition for salvation?

Yes...."faith without works is dead"...et.al.

 

[peldom10]

This is not a very good argument. Stir up belief? Make God save them?

Faith come by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. In order for one to have biblical faith, one must first hear the word of God. That's bible.

Are you suggesting that the basics of right and wrong are NOT present in the human make up....from birth?
If you doubt that...then observe a infant at ...oh...age 2-3-4.... when he does something wrong and notice the look on his face when challenged. It is convinceing that right from wrong is designed into the human make-up by God.