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I thought it was well presented was actually excited to read through some of the responses and thoughts of others. Still am hoping some folks will add to the thread and discussion you intended to start seems potentially edifying
God bless bro i think I understood the point of the op pretty well because it was presented rather well I’m my humble opinion a great discussion starter
God bless bro i think I understood the point of the op pretty well because it was presented rather well I’m my humble opinion a great discussion starter
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I'm really surprised that no one has pointed this out, but a lot of times what seems like something bad at first glance, was actually an improvement to the culture of those day. For example, killing one's children. At a time when people could and would just kill their children for whatever reason was in their own mind, God put down a law that there should be a reason and a trial of sorts, that it shouldn't just be on a whim. Because of things like that, any time someone has a question about a specific law, I like to take some time to study it.
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amen that’s actually profound for me . The law was a first step towards redeeming mankind from this fallen state beforehand
“And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.”
Genesis 6:5-6 KJV
the first step of redemption was the law whixh gave us the knowledge of sin , which led us to Christ where true righteousness is found
“And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.”
Genesis 6:5-6 KJV
the first step of redemption was the law whixh gave us the knowledge of sin , which led us to Christ where true righteousness is found
Sorry. Correctly identifying Commandments of God is not "quibbling." It is that sort of thinking that has caused so many problems between the various factions/denominations of the Church.
If you knew they were Laws, why lessen their meaning/value by calling them "rules"?
The reason it is important is that there are instances in Scripture where Gods Commandments are recorded, and "rules" on how to govern and/or live a Christ like life are recorded by one Apostle or another. Far too many people confuse Gods Commandments/Laws with the writings/instructions of the Apostles. So, no, it is surely NOT quibbling.
If you knew they were Laws, why lessen their meaning/value by calling them "rules"?
The reason it is important is that there are instances in Scripture where Gods Commandments are recorded, and "rules" on how to govern and/or live a Christ like life are recorded by one Apostle or another. Far too many people confuse Gods Commandments/Laws with the writings/instructions of the Apostles. So, no, it is surely NOT quibbling.
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"Laws" turn most people off, so characterizing Torah as "the law" means we've started from disadvantage. The first thing I do when anyone challenges me based on "the law" is correct that perception. Torah is "instructions" given as stories and examples, warnings, and yes some absolutes. Life has absolutes, and so does God.
Next I point out that a loving God would not give us something bad. Those instructions not only set us apart as His peculiar people, but they keep us out of trouble. We don't stone anyone- that would be illegal. But consider if you disfellowship with a sexually immoral person you remove temptation, remove the bad influence, and preserve your witness. That person is as if dead to your assembly until and unless he/she demonstrably repents. Obviously more serious offenses would probably be dealt with by the authorities.
Disfellowship by the way doesn't mean you as a seasoned adult Christian can or should not have contact. If there is a chance of bringing the person back to Jesus then by all means meet and talk with them. But do not bring them back into your assembly until fellowship is restored by way of repentance.
Next I point out that a loving God would not give us something bad. Those instructions not only set us apart as His peculiar people, but they keep us out of trouble. We don't stone anyone- that would be illegal. But consider if you disfellowship with a sexually immoral person you remove temptation, remove the bad influence, and preserve your witness. That person is as if dead to your assembly until and unless he/she demonstrably repents. Obviously more serious offenses would probably be dealt with by the authorities.
Disfellowship by the way doesn't mean you as a seasoned adult Christian can or should not have contact. If there is a chance of bringing the person back to Jesus then by all means meet and talk with them. But do not bring them back into your assembly until fellowship is restored by way of repentance.
I would explain this rule using an anecdote to circumcision in the bible. In the bible, there was physical circumcision, and spiritual circumcision. One could be physically circumcised, but deemed to be uncircumcised due to one's wicked actions (and vice versa).
In Woker culture, there is physical lobotomy, and spiritual lobotomy. Having a physical lobotomy means one is severely brain damaged, and unable to see the stupidity in cultural practices such as cancel culture. Having a spiritual lobotomy means that despite one's brain being physically intact, one determines in one's spirit to limit one's mental capacity to that capacity one would have if one had indeed been physically lobotomised.
In Woker culture, there is physical lobotomy, and spiritual lobotomy. Having a physical lobotomy means one is severely brain damaged, and unable to see the stupidity in cultural practices such as cancel culture. Having a spiritual lobotomy means that despite one's brain being physically intact, one determines in one's spirit to limit one's mental capacity to that capacity one would have if one had indeed been physically lobotomised.
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P
Here's something to consider.
Many people today ask this question. If God is so loving why does he allow evil?
The sentence of death for breaking the law seems extreme to us as we read these commandments but in retrospect isnt this what we are asking God to do?
Notice there is no forgiveness in the written law. No escape. And the blood requirement only covers the sin over. That's a lot of whiteout😗😗.
Now comparing the law of old and the sermon on the mount many come to the conclusion that Jesus changed or abolished the law. No he come to fulfill it.
I believe that those that heard the words of Jesus that day saw God's mercy on there life.
Those that were in prison for not acting on the law such as having a disobedient child or knowing someone in a adulterous relationship and not bringing it to the attention of the people for sentencing were relieved. Let alone those that were guilty of the offences.
Jesus showing all along God's long suffering, mercy and love.
God knows, God cares, he has seen it from the end to the beginning.
We have moments of weaknesses, moments of rage and anger, moments of disbelief, frustration, anxiety, depression, heartbreak. Lust.
Many people today ask this question. If God is so loving why does he allow evil?
The sentence of death for breaking the law seems extreme to us as we read these commandments but in retrospect isnt this what we are asking God to do?
Notice there is no forgiveness in the written law. No escape. And the blood requirement only covers the sin over. That's a lot of whiteout😗😗.
Now comparing the law of old and the sermon on the mount many come to the conclusion that Jesus changed or abolished the law. No he come to fulfill it.
I believe that those that heard the words of Jesus that day saw God's mercy on there life.
Those that were in prison for not acting on the law such as having a disobedient child or knowing someone in a adulterous relationship and not bringing it to the attention of the people for sentencing were relieved. Let alone those that were guilty of the offences.
Jesus showing all along God's long suffering, mercy and love.
God knows, God cares, he has seen it from the end to the beginning.
We have moments of weaknesses, moments of rage and anger, moments of disbelief, frustration, anxiety, depression, heartbreak. Lust.
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S
no...you would be disengaging from the truth. the truth has not changed and God is holy
God gave the Israelites something impossible...He did not give it to 'us' He gave us His only Son who shed His sinless blood to create salvation..a way for sinful people to again be God's creation and not the fallen one that broke His heart. so much blady blah blah in this thread and the premise is full of holes to begin with
Jesus said if He is lifted up He will draw all men to Himself (mankind) . reading this thread, and this post, seems more like we are ashamed of God and His 'rules' and need to apologize for them.
there is still no other way to God except through Christ. no other way to have your sins forgiven except by the blood of Christ. God is still exactly the same as when He gave the 'rules' to Moses.
this world is under a spell because it has forgotten the answer to its problems and it will continue to spiral until the curtain is one day drawn back and those who played Christian and those who understood the more things changed, the more they stayed the same, will see the One crucified for them
as the Bible states, today is the day.
God gave the Israelites something impossible...He did not give it to 'us' He gave us His only Son who shed His sinless blood to create salvation..a way for sinful people to again be God's creation and not the fallen one that broke His heart. so much blady blah blah in this thread and the premise is full of holes to begin with
Jesus said if He is lifted up He will draw all men to Himself (mankind) . reading this thread, and this post, seems more like we are ashamed of God and His 'rules' and need to apologize for them.
there is still no other way to God except through Christ. no other way to have your sins forgiven except by the blood of Christ. God is still exactly the same as when He gave the 'rules' to Moses.
this world is under a spell because it has forgotten the answer to its problems and it will continue to spiral until the curtain is one day drawn back and those who played Christian and those who understood the more things changed, the more they stayed the same, will see the One crucified for them
as the Bible states, today is the day.
“I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.
And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.”
Deuteronomy 18:18-19 KJV
“Hearken unto me, my people; and give ear unto me, O my nation: for a law shall proceed from me, and I will make my judgment to rest for a light of the people. My righteousness is near; my salvation is gone forth, and mine arms shall judge the people; the isles shall wait upon me, and on mine arm shall they trust.”
Isaiah 51:4-5 KJV
“Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.”
John 6:29 KJV
“He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.”
John 12:48-50
“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”
John 5:24 KJV
“Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.”
John 18:37 KJV
“Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: ( flesh commandment)
But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.” ( spiritual commandment )
Matthew 5:27-28 KJV
“It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.”
John 6:63
“God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.”
John 4:24 KJV
Moses word
“Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: ( exodus 21:24-25)
Gods word
But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil:
but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.”
Matthew 5:38-39 KJV
Moses word to the hard sinful hearts ofnthe ot
“And the Pharisees came to him, and asked him, Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife? tempting him. And he answered and said unto them, What did Moses command you? And they said, Moses suffered to write a bill of divorcement, and to put her away.
(“When a man hath taken a wife, and married her, and it come to pass that she find no favour in his eyes, because he hath found some uncleanness in her: then let him write her a bill of divorcement, and give it in her hand, and send her out of his house. And when she is departed out of his house, she may go and be another man's wife.”
Deuteronomy 24:1-2 KJV)
And Jesus answered and said unto them, For the hardness of your heart he wrote you this precept.
But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female. For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and cleave to his wife; And they twain shall be one flesh: so then they are no more twain, but one flesh.
What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.
And he saith unto them, Whosoever shall put away his wife, and marry another, committeth adultery against her. And if a woman shall put away her husband, and be married to another, she committeth adultery.”
Mark 10:2-9, 11-12 KJV
Jesus word is Gods everlasting commandment
“Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.”
Matthew 24:35 KJV
“But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.”
1 Peter 1:25 KJV
The gospel is Gods law
“And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead.”
Acts 10:42 KJV
And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.”
Deuteronomy 18:18-19 KJV
“Hearken unto me, my people; and give ear unto me, O my nation: for a law shall proceed from me, and I will make my judgment to rest for a light of the people. My righteousness is near; my salvation is gone forth, and mine arms shall judge the people; the isles shall wait upon me, and on mine arm shall they trust.”
Isaiah 51:4-5 KJV
“Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.”
John 6:29 KJV
“He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.”
John 12:48-50
“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”
John 5:24 KJV
“Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.”
John 18:37 KJV
“Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: ( flesh commandment)
But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.” ( spiritual commandment )
Matthew 5:27-28 KJV
“It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.”
John 6:63
“God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.”
John 4:24 KJV
Moses word
“Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: ( exodus 21:24-25)
Gods word
But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil:
but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.”
Matthew 5:38-39 KJV
Moses word to the hard sinful hearts ofnthe ot
“And the Pharisees came to him, and asked him, Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife? tempting him. And he answered and said unto them, What did Moses command you? And they said, Moses suffered to write a bill of divorcement, and to put her away.
(“When a man hath taken a wife, and married her, and it come to pass that she find no favour in his eyes, because he hath found some uncleanness in her: then let him write her a bill of divorcement, and give it in her hand, and send her out of his house. And when she is departed out of his house, she may go and be another man's wife.”
Deuteronomy 24:1-2 KJV)
And Jesus answered and said unto them, For the hardness of your heart he wrote you this precept.
But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female. For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and cleave to his wife; And they twain shall be one flesh: so then they are no more twain, but one flesh.
What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.
And he saith unto them, Whosoever shall put away his wife, and marry another, committeth adultery against her. And if a woman shall put away her husband, and be married to another, she committeth adultery.”
Mark 10:2-9, 11-12 KJV
Jesus word is Gods everlasting commandment
“Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.”
Matthew 24:35 KJV
“But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.”
1 Peter 1:25 KJV
The gospel is Gods law
“And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead.”
Acts 10:42 KJV
Great post, Kris! I'm right there with you on all of it.
Explaining the OT law to the unsaved is tough. I would mention that it wasn't for all people everywhere, but specifically for God's people to set them apart. I would say that it's a reflection of God's absolutely sinless perfect nature. I would point out that some of the laws that seem very harsh - about sexual purity for example - actually aren't that hard to abide by if society is raising children to learn the virtue of sexual purity and encouraging that. It's more a commentary on how far modern society has fallen that some of those things seem burdensome to us today.
There's actually a ton that could be said about the OT law, but I'll leave it with this short snippet because others have some great thoughts here too.
Explaining the OT law to the unsaved is tough. I would mention that it wasn't for all people everywhere, but specifically for God's people to set them apart. I would say that it's a reflection of God's absolutely sinless perfect nature. I would point out that some of the laws that seem very harsh - about sexual purity for example - actually aren't that hard to abide by if society is raising children to learn the virtue of sexual purity and encouraging that. It's more a commentary on how far modern society has fallen that some of those things seem burdensome to us today.
There's actually a ton that could be said about the OT law, but I'll leave it with this short snippet because others have some great thoughts here too.
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isn’t Jesus Christ the reflection of Gods character and perfection ?
“Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;”
Hebrews 1:3 KJV
“And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.”
1 John 5:20 KJV
“Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;”
Hebrews 1:3 KJV
“And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.”
1 John 5:20 KJV
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