Understanding the “difficult” Old Testament rules

JStates · Feb 12, 2022

Many things reflect God's nature, some perfectly and others not. Obviously the Word and Jesus Christ reflect it perfectly. Nature, fallen and corrupted as it is, reflects God's nature imperfectly. Humanity is also an imperfect reflection of God's nature even in the unsaved, but certainly in believers (though imperfect still even in Christians - at least for now in this life).

Don't misunderstand me; I'm not saying God is in everything, only that the magnificence of the Creation demonstrates the power, majesty, and wisdom of the Godhead.

Pilgrimshope · Feb 12, 2022

JStates said:

“Obviously the Word and Jesus Christ reflect it perfectly.”

yes because that’s actually him

“And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.”
‭‭1 Timothy‬ ‭3:16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

see this isn’t How God is

“And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day.

And the Lord said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp.

And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the Lord commanded Moses.”
‭‭Numbers‬ ‭15:32, 35-36‬ ‭KJV‬‬

it’s actually a reflection of this ordination and disposition that the law reflects

“Behold, I send an Angel before thee, to keep thee in the way, and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared. Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for my name is in him.”
‭‭Exodus‬ ‭23:20-21‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭3:19‬ ‭KJV‬‬

the reason we know God isn’t like that is because Jesus came and revealed the truth to us and remember he doesn’t change

“Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭13:8‬ ‭KJV‬‬

we understand that Jesus indeed will pardon our sins and we aren’t warned to beware of him but we’re called to cleave to him as close as children to a father.

the Old Testament is like seeing God with a dark dusty veil over our eyes it’s obscured by the angels ordination and Moses mediation as good as that was then for them , it’s not an accurate view of God at all it’s only when Jesus comes forth that we begin to see our God in truth and clarity

“No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.”
‭‭John‬ ‭1:18‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭5:20‬ ‭KJV‬‬

of we were Old Testament israel we would think we knew God but if we rejected Jesus whe. He came it proves we didn’t

“He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:”
‭‭John‬ ‭1:10-12‬ ‭KJV‬‬

the reason we have to accept the gospel to be saved is because that’s the only way we can ever really know God

“Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.”
‭‭John‬ ‭14:6-7‬ ‭KJV‬‬

the law can’t show God to us remember how he came and Thy re was that dark cloud and fire and warning not to come near ? Jesus came forth calling us to come near and know him and be saved

Pilgrimshope · Feb 12, 2022

JStates said:

“For in him ( Jesus ) dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.”
‭‭Colossians‬ ‭2:9‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭5:19‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Pilgrimshope · Feb 12, 2022

KrisWampler said:

“And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures, And said unto them,

Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:

And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. And ye are witnesses of these things.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭24:44-48‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭2:15‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the Lord your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee.”
‭‭Deuteronomy‬ ‭31:26‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:45‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

…Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come;

but the body is of Christ. Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,”
‭‭Colossians‬ ‭2:14, 16-18‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭3:19-20‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Because he’s taken the accusation away we now have Jesus at his side interceding for us rather than Moses book accusing us

“Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭8:34‬ ‭KJV‬‬

JStates · Feb 12, 2022

Pilgrimshope said:

“Obviously the Word and Jesus Christ reflect it perfectly.”

yes because that’s actually him

“And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.”
‭‭1 Timothy‬ ‭3:16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

see this isn’t How God is

“And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day.

And the Lord said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp.

And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the Lord commanded Moses.”
‭‭Numbers‬ ‭15:32, 35-36‬ ‭KJV‬‬

it’s actually a reflection of this ordination and disposition that the law reflects

“Behold, I send an Angel before thee, to keep thee in the way, and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared. Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for my name is in him.”
‭‭Exodus‬ ‭23:20-21‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭3:19‬ ‭KJV‬‬

the reason we know God isn’t like that is because Jesus came and revealed the truth to us and remember he doesn’t change

“Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭13:8‬ ‭KJV‬‬

we understand that Jesus indeed will pardon our sins and we aren’t warned to beware of him but we’re called to cleave to him as close as children to a father.

the Old Testament is like seeing God with a dark dusty veil over our eyes it’s obscured by the angels ordination and Moses mediation as good as that was then for them , it’s not an accurate view of God at all it’s only when Jesus comes forth that we begin to see our God in truth and clarity

“No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.”
‭‭John‬ ‭1:18‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭5:20‬ ‭KJV‬‬

of we were Old Testament israel we would think we knew God but if we rejected Jesus whe. He came it proves we didn’t

“He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:”
‭‭John‬ ‭1:10-12‬ ‭KJV‬‬

the reason we have to accept the gospel to be saved is because that’s the only way we can ever really know God

“Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.”
‭‭John‬ ‭14:6-7‬ ‭KJV‬‬

the law can’t show God to us remember how he came and Thy re was that dark cloud and fire and warning not to come near ? Jesus came forth calling us to come near and know him and be saved

Yeah, that's right. There were the boundaries put around Mount Sinai as well, that no one could pass over to touch the mountain. We have knowledge of sin because of the law... but that still leaves us separated from God apart from Jesus.

Pilgrimshope · Feb 12, 2022

JStates said:

Yes indeed thats exactly it . God doesn’t struggle with sin , the law is actually a restraint through the flesh commands for those with hearts like this

“For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness: All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭7:21-23‬ ‭KJV‬‬

and so if you have people made like that you have to speak to them as if they want inside to commit adultery or lie or steal it’s just inside of Them so you speak as if to give them understanding so they can restrain the actual commission of sin

in Christ we get this that fixes our flawed hearts and crested us in christs image again inwardly so we aren’t having to fight sin outwardly he’s healing or “ circumcising “ our hearts which is the source of our deeds and guides our actions

“For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭4:12‬ ‭KJV‬‬

rather than telling sinful hearted people who have list and greed and pride and hate inside of them , not to commit sin . Jesus is able to teach us the spiritual word of God that actually goes into us

“Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery

flesh commandment )

But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.” ( the beginning of freedom from sexual sin )
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭5:27-28‬ ‭KJV‬‬

if we follow Jesus word we’ll never ever have any motive to commit adultery with our flesh . If we follow the spiritual commands of Christ we can forget the flesh commands and learn to walk by the spirit and not be bound as sinful people are under the law

pottersclay · Feb 12, 2022

Job: There Is No Mediator Then Job answered and said: “Truly I know it is so, But how can a man be righteous before God? If one wished to contend with Him, He could not answer Him one time out of a thousand. God is wise in heart and mighty in strength. Who has hardened himself against Him and prospered? He removes the mountains, and they do not know When He overturns them in His anger; He shakes the earth out of its place, And its pillars tremble; He commands the sun, and it does not rise; He seals off the stars; He alone spreads out the heavens, And treads on the waves of the sea; He made the Bear, Orion, and the Pleiades, And the chambers of the south; He does great things past finding out, Yes, wonders without number. If He goes by me, I do not see Him; If He moves past, I do not perceive Him; If He takes away, who can hinder Him? Who can say to Him, ‘What are You doing?’ God will not withdraw His anger, The allies of the proud lie prostrate beneath Him. “How then can I answer Him, And choose my words to reason with Him? For though I were righteous, I could not answer Him; I would beg mercy of my Judge. If I called and He answered me, I would not believe that He was listening to my voice. For He crushes me with a tempest, And multiplies my wounds without cause. He will not allow me to catch my breath, But fills me with bitterness. If it is a matter of strength, indeed He is strong; And if of justice, who will appoint my day in court? Though I were righteous, my own mouth would condemn me; Though I were blameless, it would prove me perverse. “I am blameless, yet I do not know myself; I despise my life. It is all one thing; Therefore I say, He destroys the blameless and the wicked.’ If the scourge slays suddenly, He laughs at the plight of the innocent. The earth is given into the hand of the wicked. He covers the faces of its judges. If it is not He, who else could it be? “Now my days are swifter than a runner; They flee away, they see no good. They pass by like swift ships, Like an eagle swooping on its prey. If I say, ‘I will forget my complaint, I will put off my sad face and wear a smile,’ I am afraid of all my sufferings; I know that You will not hold me innocent. If I am condemned, Why then do I labor in vain? If I wash myself with snow water, And cleanse my hands with soap, Yet You will plunge me into the pit, And my own clothes will abhor me. “For He is not a man, as I am, That I may answer Him, And that we should go to court together. Nor is there any mediator between us, Who may lay his hand on us both. Let Him take His rod away from me, And do not let dread of Him terrify me. Then I would speak and not fear Him, But it is not so with me.

This is before the law, before the hope of the christ, how sad are these thoughts penned into words.
Very powerful, the hope the freedom the joy we should all have in our savior Jesus the Christ.

Nehemiah6 · Feb 13, 2022

pottersclay said:

You seem to have forgotten some other words of Job.

JOB 19: JOB KNEW WITHOUT THE SHADOW OF A DOUBT THAT HE WOULD SEE CHRIST
23 Oh that my words were now written! oh that they were printed in a book!
24 That they were graven with an iron pen and lead in the rock for ever!
25 For I know that my Redeemer liveth, and that He shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:
26 And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:
27 Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me.

Nehemiah6 · Feb 13, 2022

p_rehbein said:

Correct. Divine laws have a significance far greater than any rules and regulations. And we should not forget the laws of the universe embedded in nature. If it were not for these laws then nothing would function. Scientists, mathematicians, astronomers, etc. simply discovered these laws, and as a result we have the various branches of knowledge. Rocket science is based on these laws.

One of the fundamental laws of God is the Law of Sowing and Reaping. And this is reflected in the penalties for violating the laws given in the Law of Moses (which also included curses and the death penalty). But it works as a universal law in every aspect of life.

When it comes to salvation Christ has expressed this law thus: And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned... He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God... He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

TheIndianGirl · Feb 13, 2022

KrisWampler said:

I would provide some context of the time period. While the Mosaic law seems (and was) harsh, other laws around the time period and in nearby regions were similarly harsh. An eye for an eye was basically standard law during that time. I would then explain a bit about Hammurabi's code of laws. Mosaic law and Hammurabi's laws are very similar in a lot of ways, so that could provide some context on why those types of laws were considered considered fair and just during those times. Even Sharia law, which was established hundreds of years later, was similar in some ways (like the stoning, for example). Past times were very brutal; that's just how life was. If anyone is able to explain why Mosaic law and Hammurabi's laws were very similar, I'd be interested.

KrisWampler · Feb 13, 2022

TheIndianGirl said:

I would provide some context of the time period. While the Mosaic law seems (and was) harsh, other laws around the time period and in nearby regions were similarly harsh. An eye for an eye was basically standard law during that time. I would then explain a bit about Hammurabi's code of laws. Mosaic law and Hammurabi's laws are very similar in a lot of ways, so that could provide some context on why those types of laws were considered considered fair and just during those times. Even Sharia law, which was established hundreds of years later, was similar in some ways (like the stoning, for example). Past times were very brutal; that's just how life was. If anyone is able to explain why Mosaic law and Hammurabi's laws were very similar, I'd be interested.

Good explanation! Thank you.

Pilgrimshope · Feb 13, 2022

[

JStates said:

have you ever notice what the New Testament says about that very thing to the Hebrews ? It’s rather profound and clear

you obviously have read the giving of the law from Sinai because you’ve spoken understanding of it there look what the Hebrews are taught here

“For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest, And the sound of a trumpet, and the voice of words; which voice they that heard entreated that the word should not be spoken to them any more: (For they could not endure that which was commanded, And if so much as a beast touch the mountain, it shall be stoned, or thrust through with a dart:

And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, I exceedingly fear and quake

”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭12:18-21‬ ‭KJV‬‬

They haven’t come to that place of Sinai’s covenant and Moses mediation but to this other new and better place the better word

“But ye are come unto mount Zion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel. See that ye refuse not him that speaketh.

For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth,

much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭12:22-25‬ ‭KJV‬‬

It seems profound that Hebrew Christians are being told “ you did not come to the law but to Christ and his covenant that came from heaven “

what’s great is that same thing is repeated in many ways

“Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?

For it is written, that Abraham had two sons,

the one by a bondmaid,

the other by a freewoman.

Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants;

the one from the mount Sinai, ( the law of moses ) which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar. For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.

But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

….Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son ( old covenant ) for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.( new covenant )

So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, ( old covenant from Sinai )

but of the free.”( new covenant from Christ)
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭4:21-22, 24-26, 30-31‬ ‭KJV‬‬

again ishmael the old covenant and Isaac the new in this prophetic allegory .

we’re not born of the old covenant given from mount sinai that is of bondage corresponding to earthly Jerusalem that is bound.

but the new covenant of promise that came from heaven through Christ the Lord and we know who came from heaven

“He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth:

he that cometh from heaven is above all. And what he hath seen and heard, that he testifieth; and no man receiveth his testimony. He that hath received his testimony hath set to his seal that God is true.

For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.

The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand. He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life:

and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.”
‭‭John‬ ‭3:31-36‬ ‭KJV‬‬

The New Testament really seperates Moses word from Christs in many many ways. It’s sad when we don’t appreciate the gospel and what’s actually been done for us and try to stick to the bondage d the mountain that commanded man to stay far away to which they begged not to hear his word anymore lest they die

Christ said his word is life and to come close to him

SomeDisciple · Feb 13, 2022

KrisWampler said:

Reading about this one as a young person can probably be very uncomfortable, but there are a lot of things I have considered over the years.

1) To be stoned to death under this law, your parents either have to be really mad at you, or trying to use the law to murder you.

2) The parents had to bring the rebellious child before the elders and testify. I'm sure if you ever brought your child before the elders to stone them to death, the elders will have some serious questions for you about how you raised your child, and some specifics about why you want to have your own child executed. (I know I would have some questions). If your parent's were just trying to use the legal system to murder you, it probably wouldn't have worked. At least not most of the time.

3) I'm pretty sure the "child" had to be old enough to understand the law they were going to be executed under, be well aware that there were getting into serious trouble. If they were a legit disobedient, glutton and drunkard, they would probably still be given time to get their act together. The process in the law is that the child has to have been disciplined by the parents, so that, to me, definitely includes letting them know that if they don't get their act together, there is going to be a visit to the elders. It's not like people were suddenly whisking their unawares children off to the execution grounds.

If Jesus' parent's were Pharisees they might have used this law to try and kill him, but outside of some super-Pharisee type parents, and cases where older "children" had grown into utterly worthless people despite efforts to reform them... I doubt very many actual kids were actually executed under this law.

SomeDisciple · Feb 13, 2022

KrisWampler said:

I'm not an expert in ancient forensic evidence, but I feel like it would be very easy to falsify "evidence of virginity" regardless of whether or not the woman was an actual virgin.

But, I'm actually all for stoning people for lying to someone they are going to marry about STD's and sexual history... even in modern times. Maybe they don't have to be stoned to death... but they could definitely get hit with stones...

Pilgrimshope · Feb 13, 2022

SomeDisciple said:

“To be stoned to death under this law, your parents either have to be really mad at you, or trying to use the law to murder you.”

they were told and agreed to obey the whole law of Moses.

“If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them:

Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place; And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard.

And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.

And if a man have committed a sin worthy of death, and he be to be put to death, and thou hang him on a tree: His body shall not remain all night upon the tree, but thou shalt in any wise bury him that day; (for he that is hanged is accursed of God

that thy land be not defiled, which the Lord thy God giveth thee for an inheritance.”
‭‭Deuteronomy‬ ‭21:18-23‬ ‭KJV‬‬

I don’t think it was an option but a command and ordinance of Moses law. I believe it was to ultimately exalt Gods provision of mercy showing us a law of sinners who won’t repent and how it’s utter death and seems actually a bit wicked compared to the gospel

can you imagine Jesus commanding us to stone each other to death for sins ? Or hang each other on trees as a warning of death for sin ? Cutting off a woman’s hand for accidentally touching a mans privates in a scuffle ? Stoning a girl for premarital sex at her fathers door ?

burning sinners alive ? Strangling them ?

It’s not for the same purpose as the gospel one is to impute and hold guilty and punish every sin the other is to call to repentance and remission of sins

pottersclay · Feb 13, 2022

Nehemiah6 said:

Thank you for pointing to that. I find it remarkable that job knew this even back in his day. How do you think he he had come to these truths?

SomeDisciple · Feb 13, 2022

Pilgrimshope said:

Yes.

Pilgrimshope said:

Yes, but let's not pretend like there is no due process. If I'm an elder, and you are bringing me your child to stone him to death, I'm probably going to say that you haven't sufficiently chastised your child, and shame you as a parent before I actually say the men of the city should stone the child to death. And if there are witnesses contrary to your testimony, I might put you to death for being a baring false witness against your child instead.

Pilgrimshope said:

I know it's not the same purpose. It's pretty obvious the Gospel is distinct from law. The law is how rulers govern a nation. The Gospel is how you let God govern you (and save you).

Pilgrimshope · Feb 13, 2022

[

SomeDisciple said:

ahh but none of that is actually in any scripture right ? That’s just what you figure ?

and you can imagine Jesus commanding Christians to stone each other burn one another and chop each other’s hands off really ?

“Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭13:8‬ ‭KJV‬‬

so he must have changed then huh ? Since Jesus in the gospel doesn’t allow such thkngs as killing another sinner for thier sins , as Moses commanded

when did Jesus change ?

SomeDisciple · Feb 13, 2022

pottersclay said:

I think scholars say that Job was either a gentile patriarch contemporary of Abraham, or lived close to the time of Abraham- if that's the case, Job could have either run into Melchizedek, and/ or God could have had a somewhat similar relationship to Job, like he did with Abraham.

Pilgrimshope said:

What do you mean? Of course it's in the scripture.
If a false witness rise up against any man to testify against him that which is wrong; Then both the men, between whom the controversy is, shall stand before the LORD, before the priests and the judges, which shall be in those days; the judges shall make diligent inquisition: and, behold, if the witness be a false witness, and hath testified falsely against his brother; Then shall ye do unto him, as he had thought to have done unto his brother: so shalt thou put the evil away from among you
You really think the elders at the city gate were supposed to just be blindly and stupidly putting people to death without asking questions? Come on...

Pilgrimshope said:

Yes, really.

Pilgrimshope said:

I mean... You can't just go around vigilante-like willy-nilly throwing rocks at people. But Jesus never forbade the death penalty to be carried out lawfully. There was nothing wrong with the law- except it doesn't work as a covenant to save people. But that doesn't mean that it was bad, or wrong. On the contrary it is good and holy and from God.

But it sounds to me like you think the Gospel is a replacement for all law and government, but that's not what it is- it replaces moses' law as the covenant between God and his people.

Pilgrimshope said:

Precisely.

Pilgrimshope said:

Moses' law came from Jehova. Jesus IS JEHOVA. He never changed. Because the law is not inconsistent with the Gospel. It is abolished AS A COVENANT, because it was never going to be sufficient to save; but Jesus never taught that Moses' law was wrong. Insufficient but never wrong.

Jesus didn't have a problem with Moses' law. It was his law.
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
It was the faithless, merciless, Pharisees exercising poor judgement is what he really had a problem with.

Pilgrimshope · Feb 13, 2022

SomeDisciple said:

“the judges shall make diligent inquisition: and, behold, if the witness be a false witness, and hath testified falsely against his brother; Then shall ye do unto him, as he had thought to have done unto his brother: so shalt thou put the evil away from among you”

lol that doesn’t support what you said are you saying the judges didn’t follow the judgements written in the law ? And if they did it would make them stupid ?

“You really think the elders at the city gate were supposed to just be blindly and stupidly putting people to death without asking questions? Come on...”

lol no I said. I thing like that . Your saying if they kept the commandments of Moses that made them stupid so basically it’s stupid to do what they get law said ?

if you were under the law and thought you didn’t have to carry out Gods judgements that would be stupid for sure

“And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.”
‭‭Leviticus‬ ‭20:10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

What I said is the law is not an option to follow or not follow it’s exactly what’s written in it. There was no judge who invented his own judgements under the law lol 😀

“For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭3:10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

do you understand what makes up the book of the law that’s the ey had to continue doing it all ?

“There was not a word of all that Moses commanded, which Joshua read not before all the congregation of Israel, with the women, and the little ones, and the strangers that were conversant among them.”
‭‭Joshua‬ ‭8:35‬ ‭KJV‬‬

that’s thier law everything Moses commanded them, and it in no way gives the option of not carrying out all of its ordinances and commands that’s uninformed.

They are commanded to keep everything written in it not “ if you think it’s a good idea then obey but if you don’t go ahead and not worry about it lol that’s funny if anyone knows the law and it’s condition.

“I mean... You can't just go around vigilante-like willy-nilly throwing rocks at people”

yeah not sure where you came up with That one must have confused my comment with another.

“But it sounds to me like you think the Gospel is a replacement for all law and government, but that's not what it is- it replaces moses' law as the covenant between God and his people.”

yep I sure do given Jesus Christ is lord of heaven and earth.

And it’s not a replacement for the law of Moses it is the fulfillment of the law and prophets promise that the messiah would come and give Gods true law of light and salvation

“Hearken unto me, my people; and give ear unto me, O my nation: for a law shall proceed from me, and I will make my judgment to rest for a light of the people. My righteousness is near; my salvation is gone forth, and mine arms shall judge the people; the isles shall wait upon me, and on mine arm shall they trust.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭51:4-5‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Israel’s covenant the one through Moses is very much still here it’s just a curse because they broke it like he said they would that’s why there’s a mosque on thier Temple Mount declaring “God has no son” it’s desolate now been fulfilled and the new covenant has come

But honestly I think I see a lot of wasted time and energy to continue with you in this one. Seems like one of those constant arguments that will go no where for either of us

but if you think the law was optional , you should study it a little more and come to the conclusion Paul did that you have to keep every word that’s written or it’s a curse.

also you should compare this that Moses said

“Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:

But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭5:38-39‬ ‭KJV‬‬

yeah those are the same for sure ☺️

anyways I’m gonna move on I see a waste of time and argument ahead

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